Cables will make a difference

[professorhat]

There is evidence on both sides to support the arguments on both sides. Whichever evidence you choose to trust is your own choice - let's not go down the route of saying "you would do well to keep your opnions to yourself", otherwise there would be no forum.

If both sides could just respect that other people choose to think differently, cable threads would be quite short, and pretty friendly affairs.

 

[Anderson]

No, one side has supporting evidence, the other is more faith, like religious beliefs.

 

[professorhat]

No, both sides have supporting evidence. Just because you don't believe it is good evidence, doesn't stop it being evidence. I'm completely non-plussed on either argument - essentially I couldn't care less. But, and this is true for every single issue in the world, if everyone could just understand that we don't always agree on everything, and respect the fact that people have different opinions on things (no matter how stupid those opinions might appear to yourself), then the world would be a much better, friendlier place.

How about we take one step towards that utopia in cable threads? Too much to hope for?

 

[Anderson]

Sorry prof. Let me elaborate, provided your using adequate gauge wire for your amplifier, speaker and SPL combo then all speaker wires will sound the same. Provided your using adequately constructed RCA leads then they'll sound the same too. If your using a digital connection, HDMI, USB, coax or optical and the leads don't have mechanical faults they will sound exactly the same. Power leads again, make no difference to sound.

Now, you could be running tiny little 1mm wire from your hulking Poweramp from the basement to your living room, you could get some proper gauge wire for the length and this would sound different but it would have nothing to do with how much the wire cost or what magical properties the manufacturer says the wiure has.

So were back to faith versus facts, the facts win, no respect shall be given.

 

[SteveR750]

Partly rhetorical, bear in mind I've been out of touch with what's been happening for the last couple of years, last time I looked in these pages that was the great WHF challenge to conduct blind testing. Obviously they didn't, but maybe some more forward thinking internet based expert reviewers have...I guess not! Surely there is someone out there with a bunch of cables, a few hours free time and a multitester and microscope?

There are a number of studies on the net if you delve deeply enough in google to find them - mainly amateur audio societies and the like. To summarise the results of the ones I have seen:

Mains cables make no difference, speaker cables can sound different if they have wildly different construction (very thin vs very thick, single strand vs open basketweave and so on), line level interconnects can sound different if their electrical parameters are wildly different, with very different inter-conductor capacitance making an audible difference in some cases.

... which is rather what you would expect.

I had planned a mains cable showdown last year, but the logistics proved too difficult to arrange a venue.

Now if WHF wanted to host in one of their listening rooms, I would be more than happy to arrange the tests. As a qui pro quo, I could show them how their test equipment works.

Thanks for this, I haven't really put any effort into searching for it on the basis that I could find nothing with a cursory search, other than internet forum debates, most of which are opinion not fact based.

I've been reading extracts from Lesurf's book, this (p66 2nd to last para) is interesting in that if I have understood correctly, the quality of the USB cable between source and DAC is unimportant, so long as it has the capacity (and if it's USB rated it will have) to transmit the data. Pretty much what I've found when trying different digital interconnnects (USB cables and optical cables)

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/iandm/pdf/chapter08.pdf

As in life, in engineering 'it all depends'.

Full-fat CD data rate is about 1.5Mb/s for a stereo 16/44.1 signal, and even the lowest of the low USB 1.0 spec will support that. The question is what else is the USB cable being asked to do.

If (for example) the DAC is powered by the USB cable, then it is not beyond the realms of possibility that cable resistance and cable construction MAY effect the quality of the supply finding its way to the DAC which MAY effect the output sound quality.

Equally, if the DAC is synchronous (relies on the USB link for its clock), then again in certain circumstances it MAY be possible that additional phase jitter is introduced into data which finds its way into the DAC clock which MAY be audible.

So for an async DAC, which doesn't rely on USB power, I would feel pretty safe in saying every USB lead will sound the same as long as it actually works.

For a USB powered DAC that relies on the USB link for timing information, I could come up with a contrived scenario where the USB lead MAY possibly impact the sound, though to be honest it would have to be a really rubbish cable.

Thank you, possibly the most useful post I've read in ages. I'd assumed that in my system using USB 2 async mode where the cable is only used for data transmission then I could just as well use a cheap cable from Currys. I really couldn't hear any difference (and the expensive £20 one is sat in a drawer unused as it's imply too short), though read differing arguments on various forums. The fact that hi fi magazines claims to hear night and day differences doesn't help, although I'm sure that mose consumers once they've reserached and auditioned a few things realise that most magazines would appear to simply make stuff up, possibly in an attempt to satisfy external commercial obligations.

Back to the question, does the same hold true of optical cables? Is there anytihng other than length that might aversely affect SQ?

 

[Cockroach]

... , provided your using adequate gauge wire for your amplifier, ... . Provided your using adequately constructed ... . If your using a digital connection, ... .

your <> you are

you're = you are

Sorry, but my opinion is that it matters, but it might not be yours.

 

[dim_span]

try these hearing tests:

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencycheckhigh.php

if your ears are good, then try different cables .... if you fair badly at the tests in the link, just buy the cheapest cables you can find, as it won't matter

 

[dim_span]

try this one: Mosquito test:

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_mosquito.php

if you cannot hear these, expensive cables may be a waste of money

 

[Vladimir]

What andyjm didn't mention is that what is audible when digital signal has issues is pops, clicks and dropouts. The piano wont change from pp to fff or even from pp to ppp. There is no more dynamic or less dynamic sound, clarity etc. Not even change in loudness, just pops, clicks and droputs. With excessive amounts of jitter you may hear slight hiss if you put your ear next to the tweeter.

 

[Vladimir]

try this one: Mosquito test:

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_mosquito.php

if you cannot hear these, expensive cables may be a waste of money

Isn't it a waste of money either way? Humanity has seen greater benefits from urinal cakes than from Hi-Fi. It is a waste of money in general. The fact that one would buy expensive placebo is just a cherry on the cake.

 

[TrevC]

try these hearing tests:

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_frequencycheckhigh.php

if your ears are good, then try different cables .... if you fair badly at the tests in the link, just buy the cheapest cables you can find, as it won't matter

Even if you do well in the test it still doesn't matter, if you are talking mains nonsense or interconnects, that is. Weirdly all my gear came with perfectly good mains leads.

 

[CJSF]

I think it's fine to test cables, but people should be aware that the differences can be subtle and that there are other factors that will affect how they perceive sounds. Due to the subtle differences . . . . . I don't think it is worthwhile for most people with relatively budget kit to worry themselves spending hundreds of pounds on cables when they would've gotten more benefit spending that money on better components when making their initial purchases.

I think this sums cable differences up very neatly. I have done many cable tests since 1985 using some very sophisticated hifi in those early days, these days my system is far more basic although not budget by a long way.

Differences yes, however the cable I liked best in the good old days is still the cable I enjoy now 30 years on. I beleive this to be significant on a personal level as I can asses any changes I make in my system with out prejudice. I know 'my sound', I do not have anything lurkin in my mind to colour my vew or perception of what 'I hear with my ears'.

Cable have generaly been different in sound not better, although my intereconect is particularly special in sound quality to me.

CJSF

 

[TrevC]

my intereconect is particularly special in sound quality to me.

CJSF

I have a precious mains plug I'm especially fond of, so I know what you mean.

 

[fr0g]

Other than that, I like you, Drummerman.

I guess you missed his fanatical support for torture then.

Nope.

 

[dim_span]

here's an article that explains cables etc in good detail ...

http://www.rdrop.com/users/twest/audio/

 

[Anderson]

... , provided your using adequate gauge wire for your amplifier, ... . Provided your using adequately constructed ... . If your using a digital connection, ... .

your <> you are

you're = you are

Sorry, but my opinion is that it matters, but it might not be yours.

Nice catch. Posting from potato phone!

 

[andyjm]

I'd assumed that in my system using USB 2 async mode where the cable is only used for data transmission then I could just as well use a cheap cable from Currys. I really couldn't hear any difference (and the expensive £20 one is sat in a drawer unused as it's imply too short), though read differing arguments on various forums. The fact that hi fi magazines claims to hear night and day differences doesn't help, although I'm sure that mose consumers once they've reserached and auditioned a few things realise that most magazines would appear to simply make stuff up, possibly in an attempt to satisfy external commercial obligations.

Back to the question, does the same hold true of optical cables? Is there anytihng other than length that might aversely affect SQ?

Undersea cables send gigabits per second, down a fiber a mm or so wide with 10s of Km between repeaters. Makes your hair curl just thinking about it.

On that basis you would have thought an optical link between 2 boxes 3 feet apart would be child's play. The undersea cables use ultra high purity glass, fancy lasers and monomode propogation. The toslink optical link uses a red LED, a plastic optical cable, and a light dependent diode. Really low-rent stuff.

The plastic optical cable used in toslink has high attenuation. The Toslink spec talks about 5M, with a 10M technical maximum. Pretty pathetic really.

The frequency response of the LED / light dependent diode combination is usually not good either. This is the reason that the 'coax is better than optical' stories have done the rounds - Toslink introduces more jitter into the S/PDIF signal than a well executed coax link.

However, most modern DACs are jitter resistant, and the optical link has the real benefit of electrically isolating the DAC from the stuff up the chain.

All things being equal, with a DAC immune to jitter I would go optical, if I had an old school DAC I would be tempted to use coax.

 

[professorhat]

Sorry prof. Let me elaborate, provided your using adequate gauge wire for your amplifier, speaker and SPL combo then all speaker wires will sound the same. Provided your using adequately constructed RCA leads then they'll sound the same too. If your using a digital connection, HDMI, USB, coax or optical and the leads don't have mechanical faults they will sound exactly the same. Power leads again, make no difference to sound.

Now, you could be running tiny little 1mm wire from your hulking Poweramp from the basement to your living room, you could get some proper gauge wire for the length and this would sound different but it would have nothing to do with how much the wire cost or what magical properties the manufacturer says the wiure has.

So were back to faith versus facts, the facts win, no respect shall be given.

<sigh> ... And this is why there can never be peace in the world, folks. Humanity's intolerance for tolerance demonstrated in a microcosm.

Still, was worth a go wasn't it?

 

[TrevC]

Sorry prof. Let me elaborate, provided your using adequate gauge wire for your amplifier, speaker and SPL combo then all speaker wires will sound the same. Provided your using adequately constructed RCA leads then they'll sound the same too. If your using a digital connection, HDMI, USB, coax or optical and the leads don't have mechanical faults they will sound exactly the same. Power leads again, make no difference to sound.

Now, you could be running tiny little 1mm wire from your hulking Poweramp from the basement to your living room, you could get some proper gauge wire for the length and this would sound different but it would have nothing to do with how much the wire cost or what magical properties the manufacturer says the wiure has.

So were back to faith versus facts, the facts win, no respect shall be given.

<sigh> ... And this is why there can never be peace in the world, folks. Humanity's intolerance for tolerance demonstrated in a microcosm.

Still, was worth a go wasn't it?

Give over!!!*ROFL* If we all stuck to the facts we wouldn't have religion, the primary cause of current conflict.

 

[dim_span]

I know how you feel. I remember feeling the exact same way when my mum told me santa wasn't true.

... my mum still thinks Santa is fake

 

[BREEKO1963]

I know how you all feel. I remember feeling the exact same way when my mum told me santa wasn't true.

 

[SteveR750]

I'd assumed that in my system using USB 2 async mode where the cable is only used for data transmission then I could just as well use a cheap cable from Currys. I really couldn't hear any difference (and the expensive £20 one is sat in a drawer unused as it's imply too short), though read differing arguments on various forums. The fact that hi fi magazines claims to hear night and day differences doesn't help, although I'm sure that mose consumers once they've reserached and auditioned a few things realise that most magazines would appear to simply make stuff up, possibly in an attempt to satisfy external commercial obligations.

Back to the question, does the same hold true of optical cables? Is there anytihng other than length that might aversely affect SQ?

Undersea cables send gigabits per second, down a fiber a mm or so wide with 10s of Km between repeaters. Makes your hair curl just thinking about it.

On that basis you would have thought an optical link between 2 boxes 3 feet apart would be child's play. The undersea cables use ultra high purity glass, fancy lasers and monomode propogation. The toslink optical link uses a red LED, a plastic optical cable, and a light dependent diode. Really low-rent stuff.

The plastic optical cable used in toslink has high attenuation. The Toslink spec talks about 5M, with a 10M technical maximum. Pretty pathetic really.

The frequency response of the LED / light dependent diode combination is usually not good either. This is the reason that the 'coax is better than optical' stories have done the rounds - Toslink introduces more jitter into the S/PDIF signal than a well executed coax link.

However, most modern DACs are jitter resistant, and the optical link has the real benefit of electrically isolating the DAC from the stuff up the chain.

All things being equal, with a DAC immune to jitter I would go optical, if I had an old school DAC I would be tempted to use coax.

I found the DM+ to sound best when run USB with their ASIO driver, the optical connection was not as good, but I do have a ground issue with USB, despite the ground lift on the DAC. Other DAC that I tried (Qute was a good example) the opposite was true - can't remember now if there was a Chord USB driver or not...

I've just got a Dacmagic XS, using same cables / headphones / laptop etc there is a marked difference between USB 1 mode and using it's own driver in USB 2.0 mode. Way bigger difference than any comparison I've made between optical and USB cable.

 

[professorhat]

Sorry prof. Let me elaborate, provided your using adequate gauge wire for your amplifier, speaker and SPL combo then all speaker wires will sound the same. Provided your using adequately constructed RCA leads then they'll sound the same too. If your using a digital connection, HDMI, USB, coax or optical and the leads don't have mechanical faults they will sound exactly the same. Power leads again, make no difference to sound.

Now, you could be running tiny little 1mm wire from your hulking Poweramp from the basement to your living room, you could get some proper gauge wire for the length and this would sound different but it would have nothing to do with how much the wire cost or what magical properties the manufacturer says the wiure has.

So were back to faith versus facts, the facts win, no respect shall be given.

<sigh> ... And this is why there can never be peace in the world, folks. Humanity's intolerance for tolerance demonstrated in a microcosm.

Still, was worth a go wasn't it?

Give over!!!*ROFL* If we all stuck to the facts we wouldn't have religion, the primary cause of current conflict.

Yes. The old, "if everyone just believed the same way I did, there'd be no conflict" argument. Trouble is, they don't. Whether they're wrong and you're right (or vice versa) is irrelevant - just live and let live for gawds sake!

 

[MeanandGreen]

To those people wondering about whether or not USB leads and Ethernet cables could have any differences in sound, consider this...

We live in a world of digital streaming and downloading. Do you think the phone line or optical cables coming into your house from the main exchange have any impact on sound quality? No of course not. If digital audio files were affected during transmission, then the same song streamed or downloaded at my house would potentially sound different to the same track streamed or downloaded at someone elses house.

The reality is the files would be just the same if downloaded at my house through my phone line and router and into my hard drive, just as it would at your house down your phone line and through your router onto your hard drive.

Similarly routers do not have a sound. USB leads, optical leads, Ethernet leads, HDMI etc do not sound like anything. They are carrying a digital signal (on-off-on-off-on-off) as a simplistic example. It is nothing like an AC signal of constantly varying voltage and polarity like an analogue signal which by its nature is more susceptible to interference.

It does honestly surprise me to read people's questions/queries about different methods of digital data transfer having a particular sound quality. A digital audio file has no 'sound'.

 

[Anderson]

It does honestly surprise me to read people's questions/queries about different methods of digital data transfer having a particular sound quality. A digital audio file has no 'sound'.

It's *wacko* reading some of the beliefs on here at times.