Cables will make a difference

[tinkywinkydipsylalapo]

I for one argue against it to try to add a voice to the people who seemed to have now realised the above fact and to try to a) save someone some money and b) reduce the profits of snake-oil merchants.

Thank heavens for you and your like, selflessly striving to save us poor unenlightened wretches from our own stupidity, mental deficiencies and foolishness. How can we ever thank you?

 

[Vladimir]

I for one argue against it to try to add a voice to the people who seemed to have now realised the above fact and to try to a) save someone some money and b) reduce the profits of snake-oil merchants.

Thank heavens for you and your like, selflessly striving to save us poor unenlightened wretches from our own stupidity, mental deficiencies and foolishness. How can we ever thank you?

You can't be helped tinky.

 

[TrevC]

I for one argue against it to try to add a voice to the people who seemed to have now realised the above fact and to try to a) save someone some money and b) reduce the profits of snake-oil merchants.

Thank heavens for you and your like, selflessly striving to save us poor unenlightened wretches from our own stupidity, mental deficiencies and foolishness. How can we ever thank you?

It's a tough job, but someone's got to do it.

 

[fr0g]

I for one argue against it to try to add a voice to the people who seemed to have now realised the above fact and to try to a) save someone some money and b) reduce the profits of snake-oil merchants.

Thank heavens for you and your like, selflessly striving to save us poor unenlightened wretches from our own stupidity, mental deficiencies and foolishness. How can we ever thank you?

In years to come, when you have done your own scientific testing (ie not simply swapping cables and "letting your ears decide") then you'll have an epiphany / "doh" moment (like I did)...then you can come back and say "you were right"...

That will suffice.

 

[tinkywinkydipsylalapo]

Agreed: after all, people won't just accuse themselves of idiocy, mental health problems or dishonesty, especially when they are too feeble-minded to avoid being deluded and deceived, and can't make buying decisions with which they feel comfortable and which give them some enjoyment.

 

[TrevC]

Agreed: after all, people won't just accuse themselves of idiocy, mental health problems or dishonesty, especially when they are too feeble-minded to avoid being deluded and deceived, and can't make buying decisions with which they feel comfortable and which give them some enjoyment.

“The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life.”

 

[drummerman]

I have to say there are some great lines in this thread even if most of them have nothing to do with cables

 

[fr0g]

Agreed: after all, people won't just accuse themselves of idiocy, mental health problems or dishonesty, especially when they are too feeble-minded to avoid being deluded and deceived, and can't make buying decisions with which they feel comfortable and which give them some enjoyment.

I think you'll find a high percentage of the cable-enlightened fraternity here were once fully paid up members of the cloud-cuckoo land clan too. I spent money upgrading interconnects, speaker cable etc. It's only when you prove to yourself that it's pointless do you realise what a gigantic waste of money it's all been.

I personally don't regard people conned by cable lies as idiots or mentally ill. I do think some are being dishonest (the sellers mainly). It isn't feeble-mindedness either... Anyone will be fooled by suggestion bias or placebo in one way or another - it is almost unavoidable with our extremely easy-to-trick human senses.

But as for making buying decisions they are comfortable with, I regard it a victory for common sense if I can make one mind become uncomfortable and inquisitive enough to actually test the so-called improvements scientifically...because if they do, then that's another cable-enlightened person and one less mug for the snake-oil merchants to milk dry.

 

[tinkywinkydipsylalapo]

I personally don't regard people conned by cable lies as idiots or mentally ill.

the cloud-cuckoo land clan

 

[Vladimir]

Anyone who strongly believes in huge differences in digital sources, cables and amplifiers, needs to cancel their medical health care and take their children and themselves strictly to homeopathic clinics. At least be consistent in life.

 

[tinkywinkydipsylalapo]

“The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life.”

And so you ram your atheism at us again. Yet you appear to believe in a superior being, even if it is yourself.

 

[Vladimir]

I have to say there are some great lines in this thread even if most of them have nothing to do with cables

Well, I'm all out of ammunition. We must do this again, just not in the next 3 months, if possible.

 

[TrevC]

“The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life.”

And so you ram your atheism at us again. Yet you appear to believe in a superior being, even if it is yourself.

Why thank you very much. Praise indeed.

 

[fr0g]

I personally don't regard people conned by cable lies as idiots or mentally ill.

the cloud-cuckoo land clan

I don't understand why you think the 2 are mutually exclusive?

I was in the cloud-cuckoo land clan once. As far as I'm aware I was never an idiot or mentally ill?

I simply mean they are living in ignorance of the facts. And I understand totally why it's a difficult thing to crack...I mean, I heard differences, improvements. But in the end I realised that I couldn't hear the same differences when the identity of the cables wasn't known to me. It's simple really.

 

[iMark]

Many of us have followed advice about cables based on reviews. I bought some great looking Ixos RCA interconnects 15 years ago, based on a review and advice in a Hifi-shop. I honestly can't say that they sound much different to interconnects that are bundled in boxes. They do have a very nice tight fit and are only 0.5m long.

The only cable I have ever bought that made a considerable and noticable difference was an expensive Scart lead. But I think anyone will agree that Scart is a technology where better shielding actually makes a difference.

With so many digital sources and protocols I can't see any logical explanation for having 'better' cables to improve USB, Toslink, coaxial digital or HDMI transfers. Anyone who says that there is, should read up on digital technology basics.

Companies that spout all sorts of nonsense about their expensive digital cables are as bad as the quacks luring gullable people into homeopathy. The only thing that has been proven is the placebo effect in both cases, which in itself can be very powerful and shouldn't be dismissed.

 

[SteveR750]

Agreed: after all, people won't just accuse themselves of idiocy, mental health problems or dishonesty, especially when they are too feeble-minded to avoid being deluded and deceived, and can't make buying decisions with which they feel comfortable and which give them some enjoyment.

I think you'll find a high percentage of the cable-enlightened fraternity here were once fully paid up members of the cloud-cuckoo land clan too. I spent money upgrading interconnects, speaker cable etc. It's only when you prove to yourself that it's pointless do you realise what a gigantic waste of money it's all been.

I personally don't regard people conned by cable lies as idiots or mentally ill. I do think some are being dishonest (the sellers mainly). It isn't feeble-mindedness either... Anyone will be fooled by suggestion bias or placebo in one way or another - it is almost unavoidable with our extremely easy-to-trick human senses.

But as for making buying decisions they are comfortable with, I regard it a victory for common sense if I can make one mind become uncomfortable and inquisitive enough to actually test the so-called improvements scientifically...because if they do, then that's another cable-enlightened person and one less mug for the snake-oil merchants to milk dry.

Mostly this. The prices for some interconnects are eye wateringly stupid, I realised paying £50 or so for some Cobras was daft.

You could argue that you pays your money you gets your choice, and you know what if you've got the money, and it you believe you can hear the difference when spending that money then who cares? Why does there need to be an absolute right or wrong, because effectively they're both right. I can't hear the difference between hi-res and CD audio, unless it's been remastered, I also have to concentrate to be able to distinguish CDA from spotify, but that's not going to stop me from enjoying both.

This after all is just a hobby, mere titillation as humans have too much free time on our hands, and there's a danger that many of us take it all a bit too seriously. We've all got to make a living, and if some do by selling snake oil, so long as their customers know in their minds what they are getting, then that's food on the table for another person. Just because I won't buy it, doesn't mean I feel the need to tell everyone else they are making a mistake, I'm more interested in why someone perceives something differently when the science is allegedly constant.

 

[matt49]

I long ago gave up trying to persuade my wife that the crazily expensive moisturiser she buys is a con, as it contains the same active ingredients as stuff you can buy for a fraction of the price.

 

[andyjm]

Agreed: after all, people won't just accuse themselves of idiocy, mental health problems or dishonesty, especially when they are too feeble-minded to avoid being deluded and deceived, and can't make buying decisions with which they feel comfortable and which give them some enjoyment.

I think you'll find a high percentage of the cable-enlightened fraternity here were once fully paid up members of the cloud-cuckoo land clan too. I spent money upgrading interconnects, speaker cable etc. It's only when you prove to yourself that it's pointless do you realise what a gigantic waste of money it's all been.

I personally don't regard people conned by cable lies as idiots or mentally ill. I do think some are being dishonest (the sellers mainly). It isn't feeble-mindedness either... Anyone will be fooled by suggestion bias or placebo in one way or another - it is almost unavoidable with our extremely easy-to-trick human senses.

But as for making buying decisions they are comfortable with, I regard it a victory for common sense if I can make one mind become uncomfortable and inquisitive enough to actually test the so-called improvements scientifically...because if they do, then that's another cable-enlightened person and one less mug for the snake-oil merchants to milk dry.

Mostly this. The prices for some interconnects are eye wateringly stupid, I realised paying £50 or so for some Cobras was daft.

You could argue that you pays your money you gets your choice, and you know what if you've got the money, and it you believe you can hear the difference when spending that money then who cares? Why does there need to be an absolute right or wrong, because effectively they're both right. I can't hear the difference between hi-res and CD audio, unless it's been remastered, I also have to concentrate to be able to distinguish CDA from spotify, but that's not going to stop me from enjoying both.

This after all is just a hobby, mere titillation as humans have too much free time on our hands, and there's a danger that many of us take it all a bit too seriously. We've all got to make a living, and if some do by selling snake oil, so long as their customers know in their minds what they are getting, then that's food on the table for another person. Just because I won't buy it, doesn't mean I feel the need to tell everyone else they are making a mistake, I'm more interested in why someone perceives something differently when the science is allegedly constant.

I have a fancy watch. It keeps worse time than a digital watch I got free with a gallon of oil sometime back. I still wear the fancy watch - it makes all sorts of statements that I like.

The thing was, it was advertised as jewellry, and I bought it from a jewellry store - it didn't pretend to be an excellent time keeper.

The issue I have with much of the aftermarket hifi stuff is that it pretends to offer better performance, when in reality it really doesn't. I would have no problem if hifi products were advertised on their appearance, but it is disingenuous to market a product as improving the sound of your system, when there is absolutely no way that it could.

 

[SteveR750]

I long ago gave up trying to persuade my wife that the crazily expensive moisturiser she buys is a con, as it contains the same active ingredients as stuff you can buy for a fraction of the price.

Well you could try substituting it without her knowing. Then reveal the "truth", and tell her she's looking even younger and more beautiful, but sadly this new stuff is even more expensive. How you persaude her to continue to buy it through you is then up to you. You can then treat her to a nice holiday with the profit; win, win and win.

 

[matt49]

I long ago gave up trying to persuade my wife that the crazily expensive moisturiser she buys is a con, as it contains the same active ingredients as stuff you can buy for a fraction of the price.

Well you could try substituting it without her knowing. Then reveal the "truth", and tell her she's looking even younger and more beautiful, but sadly this new stuff is even more expensive. How you persaude her to continue to buy it through you is then up to you. You can then treat her to a nice holiday with the profit; win, win and win.

If only I could be that devious. *secret*

 

[MeanandGreen]

To those people wondering about whether or not USB leads and Ethernet cables could have any differences in sound, consider this...

We live in a world of digital streaming and downloading. Do you think the phone line or optical cables coming into your house from the main exchange have any impact on sound quality? No of course not. If digital audio files were affected during transmission, then the same song streamed or downloaded at my house would potentially sound different to the same track streamed or downloaded at someone elses house.

The reality is the files would be just the same if downloaded at my house through my phone line and router and into my hard drive, just as it would at your house down your phone line and through your router onto your hard drive.

Similarly routers do not have a sound. USB leads, optical leads, Ethernet leads, HDMI etc do not sound like anything. They are carrying a digital signal (on-off-on-off-on-off) as a simplistic example. It is nothing like an AC signal of constantly varying voltage and polarity like an analogue signal which by its nature is more susceptible to interference.

It does honestly surprise me to read people's questions/queries about different methods of digital data transfer having a particular sound quality. A digital audio file has no 'sound'.

I'd be more inclined to consider your opinion if firstly you quoted your actual listening subjective experience, and then considered this against knows scientific experimental data. Simply telling someone pfft there is no difference stupid, is well, not the smartest and most convincing approach. I'll wager you understand less than I do about digital data transfer, and frankly I know sweet f all

I'd be more inclined to address some of your concers but...

A. If I thought you'd understand, but since you admit to knowing "sweet f all" I'd be wasting my time.

B. This post of yours which I am responding to proves that you're correct with your own admission of knowing "sweet f all".

C. Your lack of knowledge which has led you to buy 'superior' digital cables based on reviews by journalists proves point A.

D. You've missed the point of my post which was meant as food for thought.

Mean and green,

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Your posts would be correct if all an optical link or USB cable did was carry data.

An optical link carries robust data and a very fragile clock. DACs that recover the clock from the input S/PDIF stream can be senstitive to phase errors in the clock. A poorly implemented optical link MAY be audible in certain circumstances.

USB cables carry timing information and power along with the data. Some DACs use both power and timing, some don't use either. A DAC that uses both MAY be sensitive to the quality of the supply, and the stability of the clock.

There are good engineering reasons why error corrected transfer of data has error rates that are negligable - and therefore digital data has 'no sound'. Equally, there are engineering reasons why optical leads and USB cables COULD impact the sound output of a DAC.

My own opinion is that a USB or optical cable would have to be complete rubbish to be audible - and then only in very specific situations. However it would be wrong to say that all they carry is digital data, or that there is no possible way they can impact the sound.

Well I'll just like to say that you are not telling me anything I don't already know. You can make assumptions about how much I do or don't know. That's all they are assumptions, I'm not getting into a I'm cleverer than you argument, I've nothing to prove.

I'll say this no premium digital cable be it USB, HDMI, SPDIF or whatever is going to improve any aspect of performance over a basic cable of the correct type. It is not possible.

Anyone who needs to buy a digital cable of any type should know this. Paying over the odds for fancy USB leads etc... Is throwing money down the drain.

 

[fr0g]

Anyone who needs to buy a digital cable of any type should know this. Paying over the odds for fancy USB leads etc... Is throwing money down the drain.

You should add...

unless it's pink and you like the style or something. As someone has mentioned, watches are a great example of jewelry. Fancy cables are simply audio jewelry, nothing more.

 

[professorhat]

I looked up "exercise in futility" in the dictionary and it pointed me at this thread for multiple examples (including my own)...

 

[fr0g]

I looked up "exercise in futility" in the dictionary and it pointed me at this thread for multiple examples (including my own)...

A few years ago I would have agreed, but over time it does seem more and more people are realising the truth about cables... So it's the long game.

 

[MeanandGreen]

Anyone who needs to buy a digital cable of any type should know this. Paying over the odds for fancy USB leads etc... Is throwing money down the drain.

You should add...

unless it's pink and you like the style or something. As someone has mentioned, watches are a great example of jewelry. Fancy cables are simply audio jewelry, nothing more.

Quite right! If someone likes the look or feel of a piece of bling cable and understands what the cable can and can't actually do, then it's up to them what they spend their money on.

I have to admit that I have some audio jewlery in areas where I think it (may) be of benefit. Actually leftovers from years ago. I wouldn't buy any hifi bling now.

I will never buy an audiophile marketed hifi cable again and haven't done since I experimented in my college years a long time ago in my late teens and a also a little in my twenties. When I was spending my spare cash on QED Qunex Silver Spirals & Silver Anniversary biwire etc... I came to my own conclusions based on what I could and (couldn't hear) and also what I was studying at college at the time.

Making an educated purchase based on preference and realistic expectation is all fine by me.