All i know for definate is that speaker cables that reach, sound the best. My 5m of Black and Decker lawn mower cable in orange was the nuts. I have now changed it to some Van Damm,
TrevC
Well-known member
Old man Van Den Hul was a professor of metallurgy, yet he owns a cable company and sells Health Rings. He is in the business of selling placebo, so might as well make these amazing rings.
BenLaw
Well-known member
Cables do make a difference, well they do to my ears anyway. I've also bought cables that didn't really make a difference but the ones I have now absolutely definitely did which is why I've had them for many years and have no intention of changing.
There are elements of a set-up that make more of a difference though, there's no point in spending £200 on an amp and a CDP and then £500 on an interconnect. But if you have a really nice system where is the harm in spending £80 on a good cable?
There are elements of a set-up that make more of a difference though, there's no point in spending £200 on an amp and a CDP and then £500 on an interconnect. But if you have a really nice system where is the harm in spending £80 on a good cable?
Cockroach said:
This was the point of the Cable dont make a difference thread - so people like Trev C could have a field day there and stay away from persistent and constant posts in positive cable threads.
But he just cant do it - not just him quite a few others. What they say makes no difference - no one stops thinking cables make a difference because he says they dont - and if a new to the hobby buys new cables hears no difference he wont buy more - if he hears a difference he will buy more - still no influence from Trev C or anyone else
I have had enough aswell - there is never any positivity - only negativity and sarcastic stupid comments, hence the reason I started the other thread.
I will have a read through that shortly.
I have heard cables make a huge difference to sound quality and nothing anyone says or does will ever change the fact. So after one negative comment there is no need to keep on TreV C and the others.
People are not coming on here always to debate do's and donts - they want ideas of new things to try, but there never is any as people dont get a chance or dont bother.
Time this behaviour stopped and the above quoted post is full proof of it
SteveR750
Well-known member
USB cables are an interesting topic. There is a compelling argument for non experts to claim that they cannot possibly influence the SQ, and my ears have confirmed this so far, having compared a £5 belkin cable to a £20 whf recommended cable; but the little that I understand of jitter, it's clear that the conductor can induce jitter. Whether different cables have differing levels is probably the key, but are the differences really audible.
Do any of the magazines or "expert reviewers" ever conduct some basic property measurements and then blind AB listening tests?
Do any of the magazines or "expert reviewers" ever conduct some basic property measurements and then blind AB listening tests?
steve_1979
Well-known member
SteveR750 said:
Modern DAC's are able re-clock and remove any jitter unless it's really excessive which it usually isn't. Jitter is a non issue.
steve_1979
Well-known member
SteveR750
Well-known member
steve_1979 said:
Partly rhetorical, bear in mind I've been out of touch with what's been happening for the last couple of years, last time I looked in these pages that was the great WHF challenge to conduct blind testing. Obviously they didn't, but maybe some more forward thinking internet based expert reviewers have...I guess not! Surely there is someone out there with a bunch of cables, a few hours free time and a multitester and microscope?
Is Andrew still staff for WHF? I noticed he has his own independent blog, maybe I was being too optimistic.
SteveR750
Well-known member
Indeed, but not every magazine employs journalists trained as scientists, so I wasn't expecting them to have done it. I was thinking more of an enthusiastic amateur with no commercial interests who had a bit of kit and savvy to do it.
Great position drummer! Both camps have some really nasty adepts.
Some will see anything in a cable and call it night and day and swear that this cables images 2 meters wider that this other and has 50% more Prat.
Others will call it impossible that someone can find any difference between any components no matter if 10 000 peoples would kneel and swear in front of them that they heard it.
I beleive that we need to learn a bit from both camps. We should stay open minded to let the possibility for differences to be heard (because knowledge affect perception) but critics of ourselfs when those differences start to appears big (because we are champions of fooling ourselfs).
Some will see anything in a cable and call it night and day and swear that this cables images 2 meters wider that this other and has 50% more Prat.
Others will call it impossible that someone can find any difference between any components no matter if 10 000 peoples would kneel and swear in front of them that they heard it.
I beleive that we need to learn a bit from both camps. We should stay open minded to let the possibility for differences to be heard (because knowledge affect perception) but critics of ourselfs when those differences start to appears big (because we are champions of fooling ourselfs).
chebby
Well-known member
SteveR750 said:
No, but he writes for Hi-fi News & Record Review and Gramophone magazines (among others).
SteveR750 said:
There are a number of studies on the net if you delve deeply enough in google to find them - mainly amateur audio societies and the like. To summarise the results of the ones I have seen:
Mains cables make no difference, speaker cables can sound different if they have wildly different construction (very thin vs very thick, single strand vs open basketweave and so on), line level interconnects can sound different if their electrical parameters are wildly different, with very different inter-conductor capacitance making an audible difference in some cases.
... which is rather what you would expect.
I had planned a mains cable showdown last year, but the logistics proved too difficult to arrange a venue.
Now if WHF wanted to host in one of their listening rooms, I would be more than happy to arrange the tests. As a qui pro quo, I could show them how their test equipment works.
Of course they make a difference. Tried listening to your hifi without any cables? Once I reattached them it was a night and day difference.
I think it's fine to test cables, but people should be aware that the differences can be subtle and that there are other factors that will affect how they perceive sounds. Due to the subtle differences (which may be revealed to be insignificant or nonexistent through ABX testing) I don't think it is worthwhile for most people with relatively budget kit to worry themselves spending hundreds of pounds on cables when they would've gotten more benefit spending that money on better components when making their initial purchases.
I think it's fine to test cables, but people should be aware that the differences can be subtle and that there are other factors that will affect how they perceive sounds. Due to the subtle differences (which may be revealed to be insignificant or nonexistent through ABX testing) I don't think it is worthwhile for most people with relatively budget kit to worry themselves spending hundreds of pounds on cables when they would've gotten more benefit spending that money on better components when making their initial purchases.
TrevC
Well-known member
andyjm said:
Not a mains cable one, surely. It's a scientific certainty that they don't make a difference, and we know that speaker cables definitely do make a difference for reasons previously stated. Interconnects would be the sensible choice, although having read that Matrix blind test I would be reasonably confident that nobody would be able to hear any differences between a 3 grand Nordost and the red and whites that come in the box.
SteveR750
Well-known member
andyjm said:
Thanks for this, I haven't really put any effort into searching for it on the basis that I could find nothing with a cursory search, other than internet forum debates, most of which are opinion not fact based.
I've been reading extracts from Lesurf's book, this (p66 2nd to last para) is interesting in that if I have understood correctly, the quality of the USB cable between source and DAC is unimportant, so long as it has the capacity (and if it's USB rated it will have) to transmit the data. Pretty much what I've found when trying different digital interconnnects (USB cables and optical cables)
https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/iandm/pdf/chapter08.pdf
SteveR750 said:
As in life, in engineering 'it all depends'.
Full-fat CD data rate is about 1.5Mb/s for a stereo 16/44.1 signal, and even the lowest of the low USB 1.0 spec will support that. The question is what else is the USB cable being asked to do.
If (for example) the DAC is powered by the USB cable, then it is not beyond the realms of possibility that cable resistance and cable construction MAY effect the quality of the supply finding its way to the DAC which MAY effect the output sound quality.
Equally, if the DAC is synchronous (relies on the USB link for its clock), then again in certain circumstances it MAY be possible that additional phase jitter is introduced into data which finds its way into the DAC clock which MAY be audible.
So for an async DAC, which doesn't rely on USB power, I would feel pretty safe in saying every USB lead will sound the same as long as it actually works.
For a USB powered DAC that relies on the USB link for timing information, I could come up with a contrived scenario where the USB lead MAY possibly impact the sound, though to be honest it would have to be a really rubbish cable.
drummerman said:
Its not daft.
There are people, new to HiFi who genuinely have no idea, then there are others like you who should know better. You would do well to keep your opinions regarding speaker cable and pixie dust to yourself, or at least preface what you say with. "There is no evidence to support what I say but I chose to believe.." that way the newbies won't get the impression that what you have to say is in any way based in facts.
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram