Cables will make a difference

[Reijer]

Hi all.

Yesterday tested some speakercables, indeed a difference.

When I bought my speakers, the acquaintance from wich I bought the B&W gave me 6 meters of simple but effective speakercable which his company uses when installing home cinema's (http://shop.sommercable.com/en/Cables/HiFi-Home/Lautsprecherkabel-SC-Prisma-401-0250-WS.html).

The new cable is of Audioquest FLX slip 14/4. In my simple testing, I single-wired my speakers (Sommer Cable and Audioquest), bi-wired them, bi-wired them with my old an new cables (Sommer Cable HF, Audioquest LF and the other way around. We used with every mounting the same piece of music and film. Every connection between amp, speaker and cable was bare wire.

The Audioquest sounded different than the Sommer. It looked like the Sommer cable was better in vocals/singing. With the Audioquest it looked like the vocals were less audible but the bass and the HF were better audible (which can be logical when the vocals are less...). A sound I have to get used to and than switch back to my old cables to hear the difference.

When bi-wired I have to push my amp much harder to have the same volume when single wired so I don't know if I'm gonna do that.

For now I use the Audioquest for the comming week. Maybe I bring the oscilloscope from my physics colleague home for some more testing.

 

[Anderson]

The Prisma cable is 2 x 2.5mm2, the Audioquest is 4x2.08mm2 or if you combine 2 conductors 2x4.17. So for starters you're not comparing like for like, secondly at the distance you've most likely using there wouldn't be a difference anyway.

It would be awesome if you could borrow that scope and post some measurements though.

 

[Reijer]

The Prisma cable is 2 x 2.5mm2, the Audioquest is 4x2.08mm2 or if you combine 2 conductors 2x4.17. So for starters you're not comparing like for like, secondly at the distance you've most likely using there wouldn't be a difference anyway.

It's true that the cables aren't equel in diameter but I want to compare a simple entry level cable to cable that is twice the price and have 5 star reviews and the seller of my amp sings praises over.

For the scope I'll do my best. Physics was only a small part of my study to become a Biology teacher....

 

[Anderson]

Well as a biology teacher I'm sure you're acutely aware of bias control and placebo and would guard against both appropriately. You have to admit, the differences your describing between the cables is a bit fanciful? *acute*

On the other hand, having tested both cables, do you think the more expensive cables are worth their asking price?

 

[Reijer]

Well as a biology teacher I'm sure you're acutely aware of bias control and placebo and would guard against both appropriately. You have to admit, the differences your describing between the cables is a bit fanciful? *acute*

On the other hand, having tested both cables, do you think the more expensive cables are worth their asking price?

- Yes, maybe but my wife didn't see what I was doing, so for her it was kind of blind test.

- No, not yet. Luckely it wasn't that much money, so worth a try.

 

[Vladimir]

*ROFL*

 

[Anderson]

Aren't there laws against testing on unknowing participants?

If you do get the time to do some testing I genuinely look forward to your findings.

 

[SteveR750]

To those people wondering about whether or not USB leads and Ethernet cables could have any differences in sound, consider this...

We live in a world of digital streaming and downloading. Do you think the phone line or optical cables coming into your house from the main exchange have any impact on sound quality? No of course not. If digital audio files were affected during transmission, then the same song streamed or downloaded at my house would potentially sound different to the same track streamed or downloaded at someone elses house.

The reality is the files would be just the same if downloaded at my house through my phone line and router and into my hard drive, just as it would at your house down your phone line and through your router onto your hard drive.

Similarly routers do not have a sound. USB leads, optical leads, Ethernet leads, HDMI etc do not sound like anything. They are carrying a digital signal (on-off-on-off-on-off) as a simplistic example. It is nothing like an AC signal of constantly varying voltage and polarity like an analogue signal which by its nature is more susceptible to interference.

It does honestly surprise me to read people's questions/queries about different methods of digital data transfer having a particular sound quality. A digital audio file has no 'sound'.

I'd be more inclined to consider your opinion if firstly you quoted your actual listening subjective experience, and then considered this against knows scientific experimental data. Simply telling someone pfft there is no difference stupid, is well, not the smartest and most convincing approach. I'll wager you understand less than I do about digital data transfer, and frankly I know sweet f all

 

[Anderson]

To those people wondering about whether or not USB leads and Ethernet cables could have any differences in sound, consider this...

We live in a world of digital streaming and downloading. Do you think the phone line or optical cables coming into your house from the main exchange have any impact on sound quality? No of course not. If digital audio files were affected during transmission, then the same song streamed or downloaded at my house would potentially sound different to the same track streamed or downloaded at someone elses house.

The reality is the files would be just the same if downloaded at my house through my phone line and router and into my hard drive, just as it would at your house down your phone line and through your router onto your hard drive.

Similarly routers do not have a sound. USB leads, optical leads, Ethernet leads, HDMI etc do not sound like anything. They are carrying a digital signal (on-off-on-off-on-off) as a simplistic example. It is nothing like an AC signal of constantly varying voltage and polarity like an analogue signal which by its nature is more susceptible to interference.

It does honestly surprise me to read people's questions/queries about different methods of digital data transfer having a particular sound quality. A digital audio file has no 'sound'.

I'd be more inclined to consider your opinion if firstly you quoted your actual listening subjective experience, and then considered this against knows scientific experimental data. Simply telling someone pfft there is no difference stupid, is well, not the smartest and most convincing approach. I'll wager you understand less than I do about digital data transfer, and frankly I know sweet f all

 

[fr0g]

Sorry prof. Let me elaborate, provided your using adequate gauge wire for your amplifier, speaker and SPL combo then all speaker wires will sound the same. Provided your using adequately constructed RCA leads then they'll sound the same too. If your using a digital connection, HDMI, USB, coax or optical and the leads don't have mechanical faults they will sound exactly the same. Power leads again, make no difference to sound.

Now, you could be running tiny little 1mm wire from your hulking Poweramp from the basement to your living room, you could get some proper gauge wire for the length and this would sound different but it would have nothing to do with how much the wire cost or what magical properties the manufacturer says the wiure has.

So were back to faith versus facts, the facts win, no respect shall be given.

<sigh> ... And this is why there can never be peace in the world, folks. Humanity's intolerance for tolerance demonstrated in a microcosm.

Still, was worth a go wasn't it?

Give over!!!*ROFL* If we all stuck to the facts we wouldn't have religion, the primary cause of current conflict.

Yes. The old, "if everyone just believed the same way I did, there'd be no conflict" argument. Trouble is, they don't. Whether they're wrong and you're right (or vice versa) is irrelevant - just live and let live for gawds sake!

Live and let live is a good way to be, but you take it to the extent you are suggesting then we throw away education.

Some things are open to subjective opinion. This aint one.

 

[Anderson]

 

[MeanandGreen]

To those people wondering about whether or not USB leads and Ethernet cables could have any differences in sound, consider this...

We live in a world of digital streaming and downloading. Do you think the phone line or optical cables coming into your house from the main exchange have any impact on sound quality? No of course not. If digital audio files were affected during transmission, then the same song streamed or downloaded at my house would potentially sound different to the same track streamed or downloaded at someone elses house.

The reality is the files would be just the same if downloaded at my house through my phone line and router and into my hard drive, just as it would at your house down your phone line and through your router onto your hard drive.

Similarly routers do not have a sound. USB leads, optical leads, Ethernet leads, HDMI etc do not sound like anything. They are carrying a digital signal (on-off-on-off-on-off) as a simplistic example. It is nothing like an AC signal of constantly varying voltage and polarity like an analogue signal which by its nature is more susceptible to interference.

It does honestly surprise me to read people's questions/queries about different methods of digital data transfer having a particular sound quality. A digital audio file has no 'sound'.

I'd be more inclined to consider your opinion if firstly you quoted your actual listening subjective experience, and then considered this against knows scientific experimental data. Simply telling someone pfft there is no difference stupid, is well, not the smartest and most convincing approach. I'll wager you understand less than I do about digital data transfer, and frankly I know sweet f all

I'd be more inclined to address some of your concers but...

A. If I thought you'd understand, but since you admit to knowing "sweet f all" I'd be wasting my time.

B. This post of yours which I am responding to proves that you're correct with your own admission of knowing "sweet f all".

C. Your lack of knowledge which has led you to buy 'superior' digital cables based on reviews by journalists proves point A.

D. You've missed the point of my post which was meant as food for thought.

 

[andyjm]

To those people wondering about whether or not USB leads and Ethernet cables could have any differences in sound, consider this...

We live in a world of digital streaming and downloading. Do you think the phone line or optical cables coming into your house from the main exchange have any impact on sound quality? No of course not. If digital audio files were affected during transmission, then the same song streamed or downloaded at my house would potentially sound different to the same track streamed or downloaded at someone elses house.

The reality is the files would be just the same if downloaded at my house through my phone line and router and into my hard drive, just as it would at your house down your phone line and through your router onto your hard drive.

Similarly routers do not have a sound. USB leads, optical leads, Ethernet leads, HDMI etc do not sound like anything. They are carrying a digital signal (on-off-on-off-on-off) as a simplistic example. It is nothing like an AC signal of constantly varying voltage and polarity like an analogue signal which by its nature is more susceptible to interference.

It does honestly surprise me to read people's questions/queries about different methods of digital data transfer having a particular sound quality. A digital audio file has no 'sound'.

I'd be more inclined to consider your opinion if firstly you quoted your actual listening subjective experience, and then considered this against knows scientific experimental data. Simply telling someone pfft there is no difference stupid, is well, not the smartest and most convincing approach. I'll wager you understand less than I do about digital data transfer, and frankly I know sweet f all

I'd be more inclined to address some of your concers but...

A. If I thought you'd understand, but since you admit to knowing "sweet f all" I'd be wasting my time.

B. This post of yours which I am responding to proves that you're correct with your own admission of knowing "sweet f all".

C. Your lack of knowledge which has led you to buy 'superior' digital cables based on reviews by journalists proves point A.

D. You've missed the point of my post which was meant as food for thought.

Mean and green,

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Your posts would be correct if all an optical link or USB cable did was carry data.

An optical link carries robust data and a very fragile clock. DACs that recover the clock from the input S/PDIF stream can be senstitive to phase errors in the clock. A poorly implemented optical link MAY be audible in certain circumstances.

USB cables carry timing information and power along with the data. Some DACs use both power and timing, some don't use either. A DAC that uses both MAY be sensitive to the quality of the supply, and the stability of the clock.

There are good engineering reasons why error corrected transfer of data has error rates that are negligable - and therefore digital data has 'no sound'. Equally, there are engineering reasons why optical leads and USB cables COULD impact the sound output of a DAC.

My own opinion is that a USB or optical cable would have to be complete rubbish to be audible - and then only in very specific situations. However it would be wrong to say that all they carry is digital data, or that there is no possible way they can impact the sound.

 

[professorhat]

Sorry prof. Let me elaborate, provided your using adequate gauge wire for your amplifier, speaker and SPL combo then all speaker wires will sound the same. Provided your using adequately constructed RCA leads then they'll sound the same too. If your using a digital connection, HDMI, USB, coax or optical and the leads don't have mechanical faults they will sound exactly the same. Power leads again, make no difference to sound.

Now, you could be running tiny little 1mm wire from your hulking Poweramp from the basement to your living room, you could get some proper gauge wire for the length and this would sound different but it would have nothing to do with how much the wire cost or what magical properties the manufacturer says the wiure has.

So were back to faith versus facts, the facts win, no respect shall be given.

<sigh> ... And this is why there can never be peace in the world, folks. Humanity's intolerance for tolerance demonstrated in a microcosm.

Still, was worth a go wasn't it?

Give over!!!*ROFL* If we all stuck to the facts we wouldn't have religion, the primary cause of current conflict.

Yes. The old, "if everyone just believed the same way I did, there'd be no conflict" argument. Trouble is, they don't. Whether they're wrong and you're right (or vice versa) is irrelevant - just live and let live for gawds sake!

Live and let live is a good way to be, but you take it to the extent you are suggesting then we throw away education.

Some things are open to subjective opinion. This aint one.

There's a difference between educating and making belittling, patronising comments, again and again and again and again (ad infinitem). Would it be considered okay to keep telling people who believe that Jesus died for their sins etc. that they're stupid, they know nothing, their beliefs are idiotic? And then to do this repeatedly in such a smug manner, that many would consider highly offensive? Would it especially be considered okay to do that on a forum dedicated to the discussion of the Christian faith?

If the main purpose of some of the folks here was to educate, then that would be one thing. From my oberservations though, it isn't - it's just plain bullying to feed their own superiority complex.

 

[tinkywinkydipsylalapo]

There's a difference between educating and making belittling, patronising comments, again and again and again and again (ad infinitem). Would it be considered okay to keep telling people who believe that Jesus died for their sins etc. that they're stupid, they know nothing, their beliefs are idiotic? And then to do this repeatedly in such a smug manner, that many would consider highly offensive? Would it especially be considered okay to do that on a forum dedicated to the discussion of the Christian faith?

If the main purpose of some of the folks here was to educate, then that would be one thing. From my oberservations though, it isn't - it's just plain bullying to feed their own superiority complex.

Or, to put it more concisely, w1lly-waving.

 

[ID.]

Sorry prof. Let me elaborate, provided your using adequate gauge wire for your amplifier, speaker and SPL combo then all speaker wires will sound the same. Provided your using adequately constructed RCA leads then they'll sound the same too. If your using a digital connection, HDMI, USB, coax or optical and the leads don't have mechanical faults they will sound exactly the same. Power leads again, make no difference to sound.

Now, you could be running tiny little 1mm wire from your hulking Poweramp from the basement to your living room, you could get some proper gauge wire for the length and this would sound different but it would have nothing to do with how much the wire cost or what magical properties the manufacturer says the wiure has.

So were back to faith versus facts, the facts win, no respect shall be given.

<sigh> ... And this is why there can never be peace in the world, folks. Humanity's intolerance for tolerance demonstrated in a microcosm.

Still, was worth a go wasn't it?

Give over!!!*ROFL* If we all stuck to the facts we wouldn't have religion, the primary cause of current conflict.

Yes. The old, "if everyone just believed the same way I did, there'd be no conflict" argument. Trouble is, they don't. Whether they're wrong and you're right (or vice versa) is irrelevant - just live and let live for gawds sake!

Live and let live is a good way to be, but you take it to the extent you are suggesting then we throw away education.

Some things are open to subjective opinion. This aint one.

There's a difference between educating and making belittling, patronising comments, again and again and again and again (ad infinitem). Would it be considered okay to keep telling people who believe that Jesus died for their sins etc. that they're stupid, they know nothing, their beliefs are idiotic? And then to do this repeatedly in such a smug manner, that many would consider highly offensive? Would it especially be considered okay to do that on a forum dedicated to the discussion of the Christian faith?

If the main purpose of some of the folks here was to educate, then that would be one thing. From my oberservations though, it isn't - it's just plain bullying to feed their own superiority complex.

What we need to consider is that both sides are evangelistic religions and they are competing for the souls of the newbs, the innocents and the lost lambs. The road to hell is paved with shiny cables with good intentions

 

[drummerman]

Sorry prof. Let me elaborate, provided your using adequate gauge wire for your amplifier, speaker and SPL combo then all speaker wires will sound the same. Provided your using adequately constructed RCA leads then they'll sound the same too. If your using a digital connection, HDMI, USB, coax or optical and the leads don't have mechanical faults they will sound exactly the same. Power leads again, make no difference to sound.

Now, you could be running tiny little 1mm wire from your hulking Poweramp from the basement to your living room, you could get some proper gauge wire for the length and this would sound different but it would have nothing to do with how much the wire cost or what magical properties the manufacturer says the wiure has.

So were back to faith versus facts, the facts win, no respect shall be given.

<sigh> ... And this is why there can never be peace in the world, folks. Humanity's intolerance for tolerance demonstrated in a microcosm.

Still, was worth a go wasn't it?

Give over!!!*ROFL* If we all stuck to the facts we wouldn't have religion, the primary cause of current conflict.

Yes. The old, "if everyone just believed the same way I did, there'd be no conflict" argument. Trouble is, they don't. Whether they're wrong and you're right (or vice versa) is irrelevant - just live and let live for gawds sake!

Live and let live is a good way to be, but you take it to the extent you are suggesting then we throw away education.

Some things are open to subjective opinion. This aint one.

There's a difference between educating and making belittling, patronising comments, again and again and again and again (ad infinitem). Would it be considered okay to keep telling people who believe that Jesus died for their sins etc. that they're stupid, they know nothing, their beliefs are idiotic? And then to do this repeatedly in such a smug manner, that many would consider highly offensive? Would it especially be considered okay to do that on a forum dedicated to the discussion of the Christian faith?

If the main purpose of some of the folks here was to educate, then that would be one thing. From my oberservations though, it isn't - it's just plain bullying to feed their own superiority complex.

What we need to consider is that both sides are evangelistic religions and they are competing for the souls of the newbs, the innocents and the lost lambs. The road to hell is paved with shiny cables with good intentions

 

[TrevC]

Sorry prof. Let me elaborate, provided your using adequate gauge wire for your amplifier, speaker and SPL combo then all speaker wires will sound the same. Provided your using adequately constructed RCA leads then they'll sound the same too. If your using a digital connection, HDMI, USB, coax or optical and the leads don't have mechanical faults they will sound exactly the same. Power leads again, make no difference to sound.

Now, you could be running tiny little 1mm wire from your hulking Poweramp from the basement to your living room, you could get some proper gauge wire for the length and this would sound different but it would have nothing to do with how much the wire cost or what magical properties the manufacturer says the wiure has.

So were back to faith versus facts, the facts win, no respect shall be given.

<sigh> ... And this is why there can never be peace in the world, folks. Humanity's intolerance for tolerance demonstrated in a microcosm.

Still, was worth a go wasn't it?

Give over!!!*ROFL* If we all stuck to the facts we wouldn't have religion, the primary cause of current conflict.

Yes. The old, "if everyone just believed the same way I did, there'd be no conflict" argument. Trouble is, they don't. Whether they're wrong and you're right (or vice versa) is irrelevant - just live and let live for gawds sake!

Live and let live is a good way to be, but you take it to the extent you are suggesting then we throw away education.

Some things are open to subjective opinion. This aint one.

There's a difference between educating and making belittling, patronising comments, again and again and again and again (ad infinitem). Would it be considered okay to keep telling people who believe that Jesus died for their sins etc. that they're stupid, they know nothing, their beliefs are idiotic? And then to do this repeatedly in such a smug manner, that many would consider highly offensive? Would it especially be considered okay to do that on a forum dedicated to the discussion of the Christian faith?

If the main purpose of some of the folks here was to educate, then that would be one thing. From my oberservations though, it isn't - it's just plain bullying to feed their own superiority complex.

The truth is important. I'm disappointed that you don't agree. What about Mohammed's flying horse? Is that idiotic?

 

[Vladimir]

What we need to consider is that both sides are evangelistic religions and they are competing for the souls of the newbs, the innocents and the lost lambs.

What are skeptics financial benefits from this?

 

[TrevC]

Sorry prof. Let me elaborate, provided your using adequate gauge wire for your amplifier, speaker and SPL combo then all speaker wires will sound the same. Provided your using adequately constructed RCA leads then they'll sound the same too. If your using a digital connection, HDMI, USB, coax or optical and the leads don't have mechanical faults they will sound exactly the same. Power leads again, make no difference to sound.

Now, you could be running tiny little 1mm wire from your hulking Poweramp from the basement to your living room, you could get some proper gauge wire for the length and this would sound different but it would have nothing to do with how much the wire cost or what magical properties the manufacturer says the wiure has.

So were back to faith versus facts, the facts win, no respect shall be given.

<sigh> ... And this is why there can never be peace in the world, folks. Humanity's intolerance for tolerance demonstrated in a microcosm.

Still, was worth a go wasn't it?

Give over!!!*ROFL* If we all stuck to the facts we wouldn't have religion, the primary cause of current conflict.

Yes. The old, "if everyone just believed the same way I did, there'd be no conflict" argument. Trouble is, they don't. Whether they're wrong and you're right (or vice versa) is irrelevant - just live and let live for gawds sake!

Live and let live is a good way to be, but you take it to the extent you are suggesting then we throw away education.

Some things are open to subjective opinion. This aint one.

There's a difference between educating and making belittling, patronising comments, again and again and again and again (ad infinitem). Would it be considered okay to keep telling people who believe that Jesus died for their sins etc. that they're stupid, they know nothing, their beliefs are idiotic? And then to do this repeatedly in such a smug manner, that many would consider highly offensive? Would it especially be considered okay to do that on a forum dedicated to the discussion of the Christian faith?

If the main purpose of some of the folks here was to educate, then that would be one thing. From my oberservations though, it isn't - it's just plain bullying to feed their own superiority complex.

What we need to consider is that both sides are evangelistic religions and they are competing for the souls of the newbs, the innocents and the lost lambs. The road to hell is paved with shiny cables with good intentions

Hilarious nonsense. The behaviour of a given cable in a hifi is scientifically predictable, and physics isn't a religion.

 

[Vladimir]

Mean and green,

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Your posts would be correct if all an optical link or USB cable did was carry data.

An optical link carries robust data and a very fragile clock. DACs that recover the clock from the input S/PDIF stream can be senstitive to phase errors in the clock. A poorly implemented optical link MAY be audible in certain circumstances.

USB cables carry timing information and power along with the data. Some DACs use both power and timing, some don't use either. A DAC that uses both MAY be sensitive to the quality of the supply, and the stability of the clock.

There are good engineering reasons why error corrected transfer of data has error rates that are negligable - and therefore digital data has 'no sound'. Equally, there are engineering reasons why optical leads and USB cables COULD impact the sound output of a DAC.

My own opinion is that a USB or optical cable would have to be complete rubbish to be audible - and then only in very specific situations. However it would be wrong to say that all they carry is digital data, or that there is no possible way they can impact the sound.

Again it should be noted that what is audible if a digital signal fails is pops, clicks and dropouts, not variations in a violin concerto. Nothing in the musical information is changed.

 

[Vladimir]

What most don't realize is that USB cable also has gauge (28/28 AWG vs. 28/24 AWG) and depending on that recommended maximum length. If the gauge is poor and length is 3-5m and beyond, there might be pops and dropouts if you use this cable to power a device + pass signal.

 

[ID.]

What we need to consider is that both sides are evangelistic religions and they are competing for the souls of the newbs, the innocents and the lost lambs.

What are skeptics financial benefits from this?

Wait, are you talking cable skeptics or agnostics/atheists/anti-theists?

Is this the point where I should disclose my massive shareholdings in several manufacturers of cheap, bulk cable?

 

[SteveR750]

To those people wondering about whether or not USB leads and Ethernet cables could have any differences in sound, consider this...

We live in a world of digital streaming and downloading. Do you think the phone line or optical cables coming into your house from the main exchange have any impact on sound quality? No of course not. If digital audio files were affected during transmission, then the same song streamed or downloaded at my house would potentially sound different to the same track streamed or downloaded at someone elses house.

The reality is the files would be just the same if downloaded at my house through my phone line and router and into my hard drive, just as it would at your house down your phone line and through your router onto your hard drive.

Similarly routers do not have a sound. USB leads, optical leads, Ethernet leads, HDMI etc do not sound like anything. They are carrying a digital signal (on-off-on-off-on-off) as a simplistic example. It is nothing like an AC signal of constantly varying voltage and polarity like an analogue signal which by its nature is more susceptible to interference.?

It does honestly surprise me to read people's questions/queries about different methods of digital data transfer having a particular sound quality. A digital audio file has no 'sound'.?

I'd be more inclined to consider your opinion if firstly you quoted your actual listening subjective experience, and then considered this against knows scientific experimental data. Simply telling someone pfft there is no difference stupid, is well, not the smartest and most convincing approach. I'll wager you understand less than I do about digital data transfer, and frankly I know sweet f all

I'd be more inclined to address some of your concers but...

A. If I thought you'd understand, but since you admit to knowing "sweet f all" I'd be wasting my time.

B. This post of yours which I am responding to proves that you're correct with your own admission of knowing "sweet f all".

C. Your lack of knowledge which has led you to buy 'superior' digital cables based on reviews by journalists proves point A.

D. You've missed the point of my post which was meant as food for thought.

?

 

It would help if you got some of the facts right I don't own any esoteric cables, in fact just bought some xlr interconnects for a tenner. Where I'd the evidence rather than simply calling me stupid, only I'm allowed to do that.

 

[fr0g]

Sorry prof. Let me elaborate, provided your using adequate gauge wire for your amplifier, speaker and SPL combo then all speaker wires will sound the same. Provided your using adequately constructed RCA leads then they'll sound the same too. If your using a digital connection, HDMI, USB, coax or optical and the leads don't have mechanical faults they will sound exactly the same. Power leads again, make no difference to sound.

Now, you could be running tiny little 1mm wire from your hulking Poweramp from the basement to your living room, you could get some proper gauge wire for the length and this would sound different but it would have nothing to do with how much the wire cost or what magical properties the manufacturer says the wiure has.

So were back to faith versus facts, the facts win, no respect shall be given.

<sigh> ... And this is why there can never be peace in the world, folks. Humanity's intolerance for tolerance demonstrated in a microcosm.

Still, was worth a go wasn't it?

Give over!!!*ROFL* If we all stuck to the facts we wouldn't have religion, the primary cause of current conflict.

Yes. The old, "if everyone just believed the same way I did, there'd be no conflict" argument. Trouble is, they don't. Whether they're wrong and you're right (or vice versa) is irrelevant - just live and let live for gawds sake!

Live and let live is a good way to be, but you take it to the extent you are suggesting then we throw away education.

Some things are open to subjective opinion. This aint one.

There's a difference between educating and making belittling, patronising comments, again and again and again and again (ad infinitem). Would it be considered okay to keep telling people who believe that Jesus died for their sins etc. that they're stupid, they know nothing, their beliefs are idiotic? And then to do this repeatedly in such a smug manner, that many would consider highly offensive? Would it especially be considered okay to do that on a forum dedicated to the discussion of the Christian faith?

If the main purpose of some of the folks here was to educate, then that would be one thing. From my oberservations though, it isn't - it's just plain bullying to feed their own superiority complex.

Personal attacks are of course a no-no. As for religion. It speaks for itself if you actually say out loud what the vafrious books state as fact. But that is another matter and not a good analogy in this case.

Cables, especially digital cables, (that are to spec) are a con. Pure and simple. There is never any reason to suggest someone buying anything other than a well made, well shielded cable that is up to the specifications of the equipment. Suggesting otherwise is suggesting people waste their money.

I for one argue against it to try to add a voice to the people who seemed to have now realised the above fact and to try to a) save someone some money and b) reduce the profits of snake-oil merchants.

It does seem to me that it's working...There are far more cable-enlightened people around now than there were a few years ago...can only be a good thing. At last, almost everyone realised that an HDMI cable can have no possible effect on the picture or sound quality, other than it not working; at last, people are starting to realise that a decent (and still quite expensive imo) cable from a pro-audio company such as Van Damme, is as good as you're going to get.

This isn't a Christian forum, it's a Hi-Fi (and TV and phone and gadget) forum. There are no "holy books" to respect. The facts should be paramount seeing as people come on here for genuine advice.

Cables don't even belong here IMO, not in any subjective context. Saying you can hear what a cable "sounds like" is a bit like saying you can smell the colour of verbs.