Cables, mains, interconnectors and speaker cables

[the record spot]

Hello Golden Ears, a word to the wise:

I expect that you have already worked out that on these What Hi*Fi public forums if you mention anything relating to cables that doesn't amount to, '..yeah, and cables don't make any difference whatsoever...so there' you'll quickly find yourself subjected to all manner of verbal diarrhoea. To have an opposite view to the one held by a number here on these forums will mean you are perceived by them to be unbalanced, a heretic, the enemy, a troll, an idiot, a self deceieved (now there's a debate), irrational thinking, primordial soup dwelling imbecile...or some such thing.

There are a handful here that consider it their Science/self given duty to help irksome and wayward ignoramuses out of their delusional stupors, and so they'll attempt to waken the deluded with a few hammer-soft facts (cough) initially, in a cruel to be kind way of course. Remember, the curtness is completely neccessary, it's part of the treatment. So if you are an irksome and wayward ignoramus remember, these folk are just trying to be helpful and jolt you out of that darned crazy dream world you seem to be trapped in, buddy! Once you wake up it'll all be so much clearer and you'll wonder how in heaven's name you could have ever been such a total brainless troglodyte with all those crazy notions about 'stuff'.

Oh, but be warned. If you don't respond well to 'treatment' you'll eventually get a charming Cease and Desist Order from someone or another...but take no notice, no matter how worryingly it is worded. A few good people here don't quite understand that not contributing to a conversation that they no longer want to be a part of simply means not posting any replies...and not posting is actually a perfectly good option and preferable if all you are hanging around for is to bully a forum member. There are loads of other coversations going on on these forums, and new, non cable related ones are being started all of the time, so people with no interest in the topic can, metaphorically, walk away...if they really want to! In the immortal words of Thumper from Bambi, "if you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all".

It's amazing how, when confronted with an opposing view that the cable believers take every opportunity to jump on those of us who don't subscribe to their view.

What is it, in your opinion, that makes you think we haven't already "done" the cable thing. I've been through loads and spent a fair bit. What makes you think that the people who disagree with your view are talking from a position of ignorance? What makes you and "Golden Ears" think you have hearing skills better than anyone else that are neatly covered off by the handy cliches "not everyone's hearing is the same", or "we all hear differently" or, "your system isn't resolving enough", or all of the rest. It's tiresome.

No, we may not all hear differently, but I defy you to have hearing capabilities that are different to the rest of the population from a physiological perspective. Hearing capabilities can be tested and measured; just get a hearing test. As for the rest, it's all down to description, semantics. The old "I hear more space around the instruments" is someone else's "instruments are well separated" is someone else's description.

So no, I don't think you have any great or special or secret abilities. I think you've found minor differences in some audio accessories and your choice of subjective wording is what it is. No more or less. And again, we who don't agree with you aren't ignorant, or uninformed, or don't know what we're talking about.

 

[JoelSim]

I've heard differences in cables. Subtle but they can change the sound in a positive way IMO. Not changed them for years now as most of my listening is via the computer, streaming radio these days so it doesn't really matter.

Nice to see that nothing has changed on the cable debate though.

 

[Broner]

I still experience every day that the sun revolves around the world. They tell me that it's the other way around, but I know what I see and if you look outside you will see the same.

When I look up at the sky (both at day and night) I see it as the true three dimensional space that it really is. After studying astronomy I understand where my place is on this spinning ball of rock and what my position is orientated to the rest of the solar system. If you watch the sun/moon/planets every day for long enough and notice how the move in relation to each other you will eventually 'see' the plane of the solar system, where all of the planets currently are in their orbits, what direction they're moving, how far away each one is a this moment in time and where they are in relation to each other all in 3D.

I was totally blown away after watching the changing positions of the sun/moon/planets every night for a few months and then one day suddenly 'seeing' its true 3D shape in space for the first time (as opposed to it just looking like a 2D black background with random white dots on it).

I can only imagine what it must feel like to experience depth in the universe through your own experience. It seems pretty awesome to me.

 

[Al ears]

You were right Covenanter, that's 202 now.

 

[fr0g]

I've heard differences in cables. Subtle but they can change the sound in a positive way IMO. Not changed them for years now as most of my listening is via the computer, streaming radio these days so it doesn't really matter.

Nice to see that nothing has changed on the cable debate though.

I think the growing consensus now is that most people here have "heard" differences. But when it comes down to it, nobody has yet been able to prove it in a blind test.

I went through the whole cable upgrade part of my life, and each time swore I could hear a difference. When I actually got down to testing each one, bliind, I could not tell any apart...speaker cables, interconnects, the lot. Now I use the cable that's easiest to hide (speakers) and whatever is to hand (interconnects), I don't care...they are all the same.

 

[TrevC]

Anyone wanting to see a semi constructive discussion around mains cables and their implied benefits be them mathematical of physical can look at thesis forum. I found it a pleasant read.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/empirical-evidence-for-the-effect-of-audiophile-mains-cable.208763/

Hilarious.

 

[TrevC]

Well you can believe what you want it's a free world. As for understanding electronics and the understanding of how cables can effect electronics this point us mute.

Not sure where you stand on mains quality affecting sound, there are many things that are unexplainable. You're entitled to your opinion but that will not make my experience any less real.

You have belief, I have knowledge.

Ok the knowledge is also disputed here http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/cables/mains/StringTheory.html you can take your side of probably non tested nor examined in practice to the author. I'm as I said not bothered buy these reports and tests but you clearly follow the herd with numbers etc. thus guy maybe on your jebel of understanding as I clearly have no idea

That's right, you have no idea. String theory LOL.

 

[TrevC]

:read:

"Again, I must stress that high cost doesn't guarantee that the cable is good or that it will work well in your system. Don't automatically assume that an expensive cable is better than a low-priced one . Listen to a wide variety of price levels and brands. Your efforts will often be rewarded with exacatly the right cable for your system at a reasonable price . "

The complete Guide to High-End Audio by Robert Harley ( Ch. 11 p. 251 ) .

couldnt agree more. I've compared home made cables costing £50 to interconnectors costing over a thousand the owner of the latter said he'd rather I didn't demonstrate my cables again. We sat A/B switching and the only tell that I could notice was when playing classical music the more expensive cable had a slightly warmer texture with the stringed instruments. My cable was made a week before and had not been used, his was several years old a a Transparent Audio set. It's not every cable that demonstrates a hint of difference.

Placebo effects work far better if a lot of money is spent.

 

[TrevC]

While I have so many clearly superior beings here; can someone explsin how a radio signal can be heard through speakers when no tuner is present in the system? I narrowed the source down to an interconnector. But I cannot understand how it is possible!

A strong enough signal can break through and be detected by the amplifier.

 

[the record spot]

Anyone wanting to see a semi constructive discussion around mains cables and their implied benefits be them mathematical of physical can look at thesis forum. I found it a pleasant read.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/empirical-evidence-for-the-effect-of-audiophile-mains-cable.208763/

Haha, the Hoffman forum (which I'm also on) is full of it. It's a great resource, but yes, you can find a view on there that will suit your perspective. Much of that is everyman opinion. You can work out the rest.

 

[Golden Ears]

I think the growing consensus now is that most people here have "heard" differences. But when it comes down to it, nobody has yet been able to prove it in a blind test.

I went through the whole cable upgrade part of my life, and each time swore I could hear a difference. When I actually got down to testing each one, bliind, I could not tell any apart...speaker cables, interconnects, the lot. Now I use the cable that's easiest to hide (speakers) and whatever is to hand (interconnects), I don't care...they are all the same.

Are you not missing the point? If you hear a difference albeit subtle or not the change determines if you'll keep it in your system or not. The telling which cabling your listening is under the bridge as anyone who's heard a cable they prefer over an existing will surly have exchanged it. So whether or not most people would know which they heard they would still have a preference, a tough fact for people who hear these differences is that not a

l material (in most cases) displays any sign of change. This can be due to poor recording quality, modern pop, heavy metal there are genera where identifying any change can be difficult too near impossible. A well record simple piece, quality vocals, jazz, solo etc usual have tell take signatures within the piece that a listener listens for or perhaps suddenly hears that he/she never noticed before. These details can then be put under ( the hearing microscope term term a phrase) further examination of the listener. Here lies the testing and ultimately many people find the differences here. Now if you're happy just to listen to music then of course the majority probably never noticed these subtle changes or didn't think them significant etc so will have the opinion nothing is different.

 

[Golden Ears]

Placebo effects work far better if a lot of money is spent.

im not in that boat, I don't believe listening with your wallet means better sound.

 

[Golden Ears]

No, we may not all hear differently, but I defy you to have hearing capabilities that are different to the rest of the population from a physiological perspective. Hearing capabilities can be tested and measured; just get a hearing test. As for the rest, it's all down to description, semantics. The old "I hear more space around the instruments" is someone else's "instruments are well separated" is someone else's description.

So no, I don't think you have any great or special or secret abilities. I think you've found minor differences in some audio accessories and your choice of subjective wording is what it is. No more or less. And again, we who don't agree with you aren't ignorant, or uninformed, or don't know what we're talking about.

This part here is the most amazing claim I've heard, and I'd love for you to back this up. "We may not all hear differently" might not be a statement but yo suggest this is a possibility is beyond a joke. Then the hearing capabilities and measuring thereof, no scientist will not can they claim to be able his they brain is processing the audio it is hearing FACT it's impossible to know what the listener is interested in listening to or for. Many enjoy music and are happy to listen and the enjoyment there is enough. They're happy and content with their sound quality and who has the right to Blair they hear better and more? No one, and no one is. If you however are of the type of listener who listens to tracks and ehilist listening are more analytical in your listen it becomes enjoyable when you hear things in the mix that was previous not present or sounded very faint on closer examination. These subtle differences be they an excessive measure can be the light and dark of those who experience changes. As for agreeing there's actually no debate period you cannot claim to experience life, sound, emotions or pretty anything in the same way I do a FACT people are unique, no 2 people are 100% the same if their thinking! feeling or emotions.

Ever watched a film and teared up? Millions wouldn't! I have, so for anyone to insist that their stand point out ways others is my friend arrogant. I'm happy to accept your experiences I've never once implied you have heard, should of heard or that it's impossible you're telling the truth. I on the other hand receive your forced view that I must be imagining it purely because you've not experienced it. How would you like someone telling you something you knew to be true want and you were delusional, imagining it etc? I'm sure this in your mind is open and shut and perhaps you think you're trying to help me see the errors of my perception..... I'm content and need no assistance into changing what I know to be true, many thanks if indeed you've been trying to be of help and haven't been launching snide remarks and laughing at me and the others who've had similar experiences.

One last pause for thought :

When there are so many that have heard, so many that haven't, so many that could not care less and the remaining group that are purely listeners I wonder why so many people care and make it their mission to dispel another persons experience? Surely what's most important is how you experience it?

Cheers again I'm semi enjoying these comments, it doesn't change what facts I've experience nor will it and I have no intention of telling you that you should or shouldn't hear difference that is something for you to decide, experience or not.

 

[ID.]

im not in that boat, I don't believe listening with your wallet means better sound.

That's the best bit. You don't have to believe it. Your subconscious does it for you. Although I do love it when people preface their reviews with "I wasn't expecting to hear a difference, but..."

Expectation bias doesn't work like that. Having spent the money -- or even knowing that something is more expensive, etc. --, there's a good chance that part of you wants an improvement, irrespective of how much your conscious brain tries to convince you that you won't be swayed by those factors.

Personally, having never done blind testing I've heard varying degrees of difference in cables, but I'm not completely able to discount placebo effect being the complete or partial cause for the differences.

Then again, if someone offered to give me Nordost cabling from their blue heaven or a higher range, I wouldn't say no.

 

[the record spot]

No, we may not all hear differently, but I defy you to have hearing capabilities that are different to the rest of the population from a physiological perspective. Hearing capabilities can be tested and measured; just get a hearing test. As for the rest, it's all down to description, semantics. The old "I hear more space around the instruments" is someone else's "instruments are well separated" is someone else's description.

So no, I don't think you have any great or special or secret abilities. I think you've found minor differences in some audio accessories and your choice of subjective wording is what it is. No more or less. And again, we who don't agree with you aren't ignorant, or uninformed, or don't know what we're talking about.

This part here is the most amazing claim I've heard, and I'd love for you to back this up. "We may not all hear differently" might not be a statement but yo suggest this is a possibility is beyond a joke. Then the hearing capabilities and measuring thereof, no scientist will not can they claim to be able his they brain is processing the audio it is hearing FACT it's impossible to know what the listener is interested in listening to or for. Many enjoy music and are happy to listen and the enjoyment there is enough. They're happy and content with their sound quality and who has the right to Blair they hear better and more? No one, and no one is. If you however are of the type of listener who listens to tracks and ehilist listening are more analytical in your listen it becomes enjoyable when you hear things in the mix that was previous not present or sounded very faint on closer examination. These subtle differences be they an excessive measure can be the light and dark of those who experience changes. As for agreeing there's actually no debate period you cannot claim to experience life, sound, emotions or pretty anything in the same way I do a FACT people are unique, no 2 people are 100% the same if their thinking! feeling or emotions.

Ever watched a film and teared up? Millions wouldn't! I have, so for anyone to insist that their stand point out ways others is my friend arrogant. I'm happy to accept your experiences I've never once implied you have heard, should of heard or that it's impossible you're telling the truth. I on the other hand receive your forced view that I must be imagining it purely because you've not experienced it. How would you like someone telling you something you knew to be true want and you were delusional, imagining it etc? I'm sure this in your mind is open and shut and perhaps you think you're trying to help me see the errors of my perception..... I'm content and need no assistance into changing what I know to be true, many thanks if indeed you've been trying to be of help and haven't been launching snide remarks and laughing at me and the others who've had similar experiences.

One last pause for thought :

When there are so many that have heard, so many that haven't, so many that could not care less and the remaining group that are purely listeners I wonder why so many people care and make it their mission to dispel another persons experience? Surely what's most important is how you experience it?

Cheers again I'm semi enjoying these comments, it doesn't change what facts I've experience nor will it and I have no intention of telling you that you should or shouldn't hear difference that is something for you to decide, experience or not.

Subtle differences, semantics, the ability to describe a sound using terms that can be objectively applied. Not superhuman hearing. Fact. And your post makes that clear now.

I'm glad you're happy with your mains products and home made interconnects, this hobby is a broad church after all.

That said, your hyperbole is just that and you're no different from any other cable believer - and remember I've been there too like many others have who place less importance on the minimal effects cables have and who now focus instead on those things that make a more meaningful difference; recording quality, mastering, good quality equipment, speaker positioning and so on.

Have a look at the Shakti Innovations site. I think they're more for you.

 

[Golden Ears]

im not in that boat, I don't believe listening with your wallet means better sound.

That's the best bit. You don't have to believe it. Your subconscious does it for you. Although I do love it when people preface their reviews with "I wasn't expecting to hear a difference, but..."

Expectation bias doesn't work like that. Having spent the money -- or even knowing that something is more expensive, etc. --, there's a good chance that part of you wants an improvement, irrespective of how much your conscious brain tries to convince you that you won't be swayed by those factors.

Personally, having never done blind testing I've heard varying degrees of difference in cables, but I'm not completely able to discount placebo effect being the complete or partial cause for the differences.

Then again, if someone offered to give me Nordost cabling from their blue heaven or a higher range, I wouldn't say no.

There's always those slight differences which could be described as the placebo effect, surely a little difference might be possible maybe not. But the stark changes that can be heard by the majority of listeners experiencing the same system and cables if changed goes without doubt. I've listened for changes that I first thought were there and on reflection put those down to amplitude, however that is still a change. The other cable had the detail but it wasn't as obvious due to the signal not being as strong.

As for the money factor I've never spent big money. I have recieved Transparent Audio cables, Blackmagic, Audioquest Van den hul all of which have been excellent but I've settled for home made £60 interconnectors in the end. I've only one store bought cable in my system that's an optical cable.

 

[Golden Ears]

Subtle differences, semantics, the ability to describe a sound using terms that can be objectively applied. Not superhuman hearing. Fact. And your post makes that clear now.

I'm glad you've noticed I'm not claiming super human hearing! Never implied nor should it be translated as so.

I'm glad you're happy with your mains products and home made interconnects, this hobby is a broad church after all.

Thank you

That said, your hyperbole is just that and you're no different from any other cable believer - and remember I've been there too like many others have who place less importance on the minimal effects cables have and who now focus instead on those things that make a more meaningful difference; recording quality, mastering, good quality equipment, speaker positioning and so on.

For the most part I sit down to enjoy the music. The analysing of sound and any cable effects is the hobby aspect. I agree with your stance on material and speakers etc that's often the only real tool for finding if there's a difference or not. Also if right you enjoy the whole experience much more!

I'll look at the site you've indicated I'm glad people can sit on either side of a fence without trying to force their views on to each other. Experiencing something I'd always at a personal level and I wouldn't dream of telling someone their experience should be as mine

 

[RobinKidderminster]

How can I find an hdmi cable with a punchy, powerful & composed production which oozes dynamics for less than £150?

 

[BigH]

Well you can believe what you want it's a free world. As for understanding electronics and the understanding of how cables can effect electronics this point us mute.

Not sure where you stand on mains quality affecting sound, there are many things that are unexplainable. You're entitled to your opinion but that will not make my experience any less real.

Do you have a dedicated mains spur fitted in your house for your hifi?

 

[spiny norman]

Honestly, it's pathetic that people can keep on quibbling and squabbling about this stuff when events of global importance are taking are place.

You may not have noticed while you were snipping and sniping, but APPLE HAS LAUNCHED TWO SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT IPADS. It was on the BBC news and everything – or does that mean nothing to you?

Get some sense of proportion, people!

:rofl:

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Is a speaker cable described as'smooth & refined but needing a touch of verve' really worth £8pm or should I look for 'a massivelydetailed cable which reveals subtlties with refinement' at£50pm?

 

[floyd droid]

Honestly, it's pathetic that people can keep on quibbling and squabbling about this stuff when events of global importance are taking are place.

Indeed , so well done Frances Quinn.

 

[chebby]

Oh my! You've turned into our favourite sociopathic genius.

 

[Covenanter]

While I have so many clearly superior beings here; can someone explsin how a radio signal can be heard through speakers when no tuner is present in the system? I narrowed the source down to an interconnector. But I cannot understand how it is possible!

I suspect this is because you lack knowledge. Might I humbly suggest that you try to actually find out some things?

Chris

so you've nothing of use to aid my question only felt a cheap snipe was in order :clap: If someone is seeking advice only to be told you lack knowledge and to seek some they must truly be :help: in some type of madness. I had asked for advice as clearly this is something I have no idea about.

I have an understanding of plenty and for nog knowing everything I don't see that being a weakness but an acknowledgement within its self

Not a cheap snipe, I never do anything on the cheap. But anyway you say you don't understand this. Why not do a little research and find out? It's a well-known phenomenum and actually very simple.

Chris

 

[steve_1979]

Honestly, it's pathetic that people can keep on quibbling and squabbling about this stuff when events of global importance are taking are place.

You may not have noticed while you were snipping and sniping, but APPLE HAS LAUNCHED TWO SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT IPADS. It was on the BBC news and everything – or does that mean nothing to you?

Get some sense of proportion, people!

:rofl:

But speaker cables ARE a matter or global importance!
EDIT - smiley added in case anyone thought I was being serious.