Cables, mains, interconnectors and speaker cables

[hammill]

Just having another little sing song

Don't be surprised when a crack in the ice

Appears under your feet

You slip out of your depth and out of your mind

With your fear flowing out behind you

As you claw the thin ice.

Carry on chappies.

I rather like

If you didn't care

What happened to me

And I didn't care

For you

We would zig-zag our way

Through the boredom and pain

Occasionally, glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the bu**ers to blame

And watching for pigs on the wing

 

[Golden Ears]

Simple thing, plenty of people can use science and measurements to explain how fit-for-purpose cables are all the same. Cable companies on the other hand do not show any measurements to back up their claims (other than shampoo-ad style graphical bollocks and make-believe pseudo-science) - why do you think this is? You'd think the cable companies could really show the benefit of their product no? Or would it be lies and get then in trouble with trading standards? Why has no-one taken up James Randi's $1000,000 challenge? You'd think some of the "believers" would be straight over to collect the cash! This is my question. How come all the proof is on one side? I don't expect a useful answer. The non-believers can back up what they say with facts, ball is in your court believers...

I do wonder why this is so impossible for those who cannot hear differences. Perhaps they're right they haven't yet! Yes it makes it harder for them to believe. But if your look in black and white you'll soon think it too. The number mean very little when you think about it, you can have to Hifi that can deliver 100w but one sounds better than the other. If they've used parts with the same prating but different brands how could this be possible? These James Randal efforts make me smile. If he's such a science first I'd love him to visit hear and listen to different cables. Perhaps peoples hearing is the issue and that's their down fall. As for trading standards there are cables in use in these products exceeding the minimum conforming standards thus exceeding these minimum requirements which are not the blue print but a standard a cable must meet. Many cables are constructed by more than the bare standard and these have a noticeable (on occasion) difference. So to like cables probably are like but the materials used in construction and conductors are not all alike you'd be completely stupid to think they are. The impact varying conductors have on a signal can be measured but is us audible? There are those claiming it isn't but that through science they have not idea what a given person can perceive harmonically as sound is more than numbers.

So again how can a cable made from tinned copper have exactly the same effect on the audio spectrum as a cable obstructed of copper only, the very definition shows it to be unlikely

Ok, I'm not going to pretend to understand exactly what you've said but since English isn't your first language that's not your fault. What I can say is that with a group of people who thought cables did make a difference (despite the facts) we conducted a blind test, a proper one with multiple swaps and AB comparisons with the listeners unaware of what cables were being used. Under these conditions NONE of us could reliably tell any differences in either interconnect or speaker cable. This was an expensive system, the cables varied from freebie interconnects to £1500 speaker cables. That's my experience of it. When you factor in science and measurements it backs up that test, which is what science is useful for. The people who believe in the differences can't back up their findings with anything. As a previous poster said, it's electricity - does your kettle boil faster with a new cable? Audio signals aren't special, they're electricity and the well known rules of physics still apply.

Thanjs and I wouldn't dream of telling you ptpptat there must of been a difference. This doesn't take any away from my own experiences. Here and in other peoples systems I have heard differences. Again I've had people present on occasion who have said it's scientifically impossible. I can say with all honesty that these people had heard a difference and on occasion have bought the cable. Now that is a fact these people had no belief that they would hear anything and had similar comments to all of those quoting science, I'm no scientist and have to admit on oaper looks unlikely but in practice it has been true

 

[spiny norman]

He sees dead people?

No, apparently only

ones.

 

[Golden Ears]

Simple thing, plenty of people can use science and measurements to explain how fit-for-purpose cables are all the same. Cable companies on the other hand do not show any measurements to back up their claims (other than shampoo-ad style graphical bollocks and make-believe pseudo-science) - why do you think this is? You'd think the cable companies could really show the benefit of their product no? Or would it be lies and get then in trouble with trading standards? Why has no-one taken up James Randi's $1000,000 challenge? You'd think some of the "believers" would be straight over to collect the cash! This is my question. How come all the proof is on one side? I don't expect a useful answer. The non-believers can back up what they say with facts, ball is in your court believers...

I do wonder why this is so impossible for those who cannot hear differences. Perhaps they're right they haven't yet! Yes it makes it harder for them to believe. But if your look in black and white you'll soon think it too. The number mean very little when you think about it, you can have to Hifi that can deliver 100w but one sounds better than the other. If they've used parts with the same prating but different brands how could this be possible? These James Randal efforts make me smile. If he's such a science first I'd love him to visit hear and listen to different cables. Perhaps peoples hearing is the issue and that's their down fall. As for trading standards there are cables in use in these products exceeding the minimum conforming standards thus exceeding these minimum requirements which are not the blue print but a standard a cable must meet. Many cables are constructed by more than the bare standard and these have a noticeable (on occasion) difference. So to like cables probably are like but the materials used in construction and conductors are not all alike you'd be completely stupid to think they are. The impact varying conductors have on a signal can be measured but is us audible? There are those claiming it isn't but that through science they have not idea what a given person can perceive harmonically as sound is more than numbers.

So again how can a cable made from tinned copper have exactly the same effect on the audio spectrum as a cable obstructed of copper only, the very definition shows it to be unlikely

Ok, I'm not going to pretend to understand exactly what you've said but since English isn't your first language that's not your fault. What I can say is that with a group of people who thought cables did make a difference (despite the facts) we conducted a blind test, a proper one with multiple swaps and AB comparisons with the listeners unaware of what cables were being used. Under these conditions NONE of us could reliably tell any differences in either interconnect or speaker cable. This was an expensive system, the cables varied from freebie interconnects to £1500 speaker cables. That's my experience of it. When you factor in science and measurements it backs up that test, which is what science is useful for. The people who believe in the differences can't back up their findings with anything. As a previous poster said, it's electricity - does your kettle boil faster with a new cable? Audio signals aren't special, they're electricity and the well known rules of physics still apply.

Exactly this....

Mr GoldenEars... One day, I really hope you take up this type of challenge. And when you do, like me you will realise what a shmuck you've been and how much time, energy and money you have flushed down the toilet in the pursuit of a myth.

Not to mention your poor wife having to put up with this obsessive nonsense...

if I supplied the cables on my system and was asked which played I could with confidence do it. I've never claimed all cables have audible differences and never will.now if someone wants to test this they're welcome and maybe they'll walk away wondering how it's possible

 

[Um]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll In Denmark, these creatures are recorded as troldfolk ("troll-folk"), bjergtrolde ("mountain-trolls"), or bjergfolk ("mountain-folk") and in Norway also as troldfolk ("troll-folk") and tusser.

Although I'm not sure about the spelling of Tusser

 

[Golden Ears]

I really wonder where these kind people have found the light today. It's always difficult for people to accept a point of view they are blinded into thinking impossible. There are those with deep pockets that waste money believing more spent is better sound. Not in that boat but a good quality well constructed cable can offer better sonics or transmission over lesser quality design

 

[Um]

I really wonder where these kind people have found the light today. It's always difficult for people to accept a point of view they are blinded into thinking impossible. There are those with deep pockets that waste money believing more spent is better sound. Not in that boat but a good quality well constructed cable can offer better sonics or transmission over lesser quality design

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll In Denmark, these creatures are recorded as troldfolk ("troll-folk"), bjergtrolde ("mountain-trolls"), or bjergfolk ("mountain-folk") and in Norway also as troldfolk ("troll-folk") and tusser.

Although I'm not sure about the spelling of Tusser

 

[Science Man]

Thanjs and I wouldn't dream of telling you ptpptat there must of been a difference. This doesn't take any away from my own experiences. Here and in other peoples systems I have heard differences. Again I've had people present on occasion who have said it's scientifically impossible. I can say with all honesty that these people had heard a difference and on occasion have bought the cable. Now that is a fact these people had no belief that they would hear anything and had similar comments to all of those quoting science, I'm no scientist and have to admit on oaper looks unlikely but in practice it has been true

Ahh but that's exactly my point - the test I did was BLIND. No-one knew what cables were being changed and sometimes the same cable was left in as a check so people didn't know what to expect. Your test was when you KNEW the cable had changed so you EXPECTED to hear a difference. The mind does strange things - take a look at one of those static images that looks like it's moving, an optical illusion. You change something so your mind tells you something has changed so has to be different. A sighted audio test is more flawed than a blind one, even a blind one isn't perfect but the results are more reliable.

 

[pmconcierge]

If all the cables are the same then why would the supplied xbox cable not reveal buildings on the horizon on gta, yet the new one did! I didn't buy 2 more of these relatively expensive cables due to some mentally perceived improvement. Maybe your personal experience is different and in your case the cable doesn't make a difference, however my picture is now better than my mates even though his screen type is better. Without the chord cable my tv is a distant second. The difference is so great that I implore you to just accept what I say! (Here is hoping). I appreciate that the techie might not have been able to measure the difference but ultimately he is wrong! I am saying cables can make a difference. I don't have to be right everytime. To say cables cannot make a difference means in all cases, cables must never make a difference. I can guarantee you ( I would bet my life on it) that the techie is wrong in my case. Guess u had to be there!

 

[Science Man]

If all the cables are the same then why would the supplied xbox cable not reveal buildings on the horizon on gta, yet the new one did! I didn't buy 2 more of these relatively expensive cables due to some mentally perceived improvement. Maybe your personal experience is different and in your case the cable doesn't make a difference, however my picture is now better than my mates even though his screen type is better. Without the chord cable my tv is a distant second. The difference is so great that I implore you to just accept what I say! (Here is hoping). I appreciate that the techie might not have been able to measure the difference but ultimately he is wrong! I am saying cables can make a difference. I don't have to be right everytime. To say cables cannot make a difference means in all cases, cables must never make a difference. I can guarantee you ( I would bet my life on it) that the techie is wrong in my case. Guess u had to be there!

Maybe you have magic cables? There is literally no difference between HDMI's as long as they're working. Measuring screen output with a meter at all variances of light and colour and far more sensitive than a human eye, there is no measured difference as well as there technically being no difference between the 1's and 0's transmitted. It's not opinion, it's fact. Therefore you either have magic or faulty cables or you were the component that changed perception of what you were seeing.

 

[Cypher]

Science Man................save yourself the energy...........it's like talking to a brick wall

 

[Science Man]

Science Man................save yourself the energy...........it's like talking to a brick wall

:cheers:

 

[Golden Ears]

Thanjs and I wouldn't dream of telling you ptpptat there must of been a difference. This doesn't take any away from my own experiences. Here and in other peoples systems I have heard differences. Again I've had people present on occasion who have said it's scientifically impossible. I can say with all honesty that these people had heard a difference and on occasion have bought the cable. Now that is a fact these people had no belief that they would hear anything and had similar comments to all of those quoting science, I'm no scientist and have to admit on oaper looks unlikely but in practice it has been true

Ahh but that's exactly my point - the test I did was BLIND. No-one knew what cables were being changed and sometimes the same cable was left in as a check so people didn't know what to expect. Your test was when you KNEW the cable had changed so you EXPECTED to hear a difference. The mind does strange things - take a look at one of those static images that looks like it's moving, an optical illusion. You change something so your mind tells you something has changed so has to be different. A sighted audio test is more flawed than a blind one, even a blind one isn't perfect but the results are more reliable.

It's a given I know when they're changed at home. But it doesn't explain where I get a preference from nor does it explain (in the case where there was added bass) why my wife ( who by the way thinks I'm nuts for listening somclosly and thinks everything sounds the same) would a use me of altering the bass when I have no tone controls and the volume was at the usual level. Things happen, things that are unexplainable and science is always contradicting science. For every scientists who tests something he will have different results to another who tested another way. This us the nature of experimenting. There is (to my knowledge) no scientific test that replicated human hearing and can depict was is being heard, felt or experienced and it's these tests that would be resale can't and not a wire transmitting a give on frequency. There's more to it than that and all would agree today's polluted airspace is full of digital garbage which can get into the dig so path.

 

[BenLaw]

I'm not sure we should be encouraging people to take part in the James Randall challenge...

I very much like your new picture thingy It appeals to my literal side.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Golden Ears- I had a little sympathy for you earlier tho little for your stance. Now, you have written so much yet said so little that this thread has ceased to be informative, amusing or interesting. You made your point way way back so I should leave folk to make up their own minds.

 

[Golden Ears]

Making their own minds is all I've ever suggested. I can't insist they hear differences I on,y objected their trying to influence my own experiences

 

[professorhat]

I'm not sure we should be encouraging people to take part in the James Randall challenge...

I very much like your new picture thingy It appeals to my literal side.

Thanks - it's nice to literally be literal sometimes.

 

[floyd droid]

And watching for pigs on the wing

Best that you move in silently down wind and out of sight , then shoot one ,lol.

 

[Golden Ears]

Has anyone heard of tis study? http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/cableshift/cp.html

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Has anyone heard of tis study? http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/cableshift/cp.html

We have now. And many other reports which suggest cables are the same within sensible limits. Your point was?

 

[iceman16]

How do you define Science please?

 

[Golden Ears]

Has anyone heard of tis study? http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/cableshift/cp.html

We have now. And many other reports which suggest cables are the same within sensible limits. Your point was?

My point is science is science. And people choose to follow their own beliefs. I however don't care what this shows or what other reports show. I use my ears. The point here is the scientific quoting people will find 10 reports sharing their view and those on the other side of the fence will find another 10 so the end can only be truly measured by humans listening and their perception of what has or hasn't changed

 

[Golden Ears]

How do you define Science please?

I've always looked at science as a way of conducting experiments to obtain results be they conclusive or disputed. I'm not a waking dictionary so I guess there's a much better definition

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Has anyone heard of tis study? http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/cableshift/cp.html

We have now. And many other reports which suggest cables are the same within sensible limits. Your point was?

My point is science is science. And people choose to follow their own beliefs. I however don't care what this shows or what other reports show. I use my ears. The point here is the scientific quoting people will find 10 reports sharing their view and those on the other side of the fence will find another 10 so the end can only be truly measured by humans listening and their perception of what has or hasn't changed

'Science is science' - true.

10 science reports to validate differences in cables? I dont think so!

Only humans listening is balid? I dont think so.

I'm sorry but you seem to be loosing any credibilty. If u had left it as 'I believe I hear differences between cable a and cable b then some would have been less critical of your lengthy lectures.

 

[iceman16]

How do you define Science please?

I've always looked at science as a way of conducting experiments to obtain results be they conclusive or disputed. I'm not a waking dictionary so I guess there's a much better definition

I partiallly agree that some cables makes difference. BUT what type of cable(s) are we talking about here? Dif. metallurgy (copper, silver plated copper,silver, thickness,insulation). I do believe that cables makes diff. in sound quality But thats depend on what cable is made of.