Cables, mains, interconnectors and speaker cables

[ISAC69]

:read:

"Again, I must stress that high cost doesn't guarantee that the cable is good or that it will work well in your system. Don't automatically assume that an expensive cable is better than a low-priced one . Listen to a wide variety of price levels and brands. Your efforts will often be rewarded with exacatly the right cable for your system at a reasonable price . "

The complete Guide to High-End Audio by Robert Harley ( Ch. 11 p. 251 ) .

 

[TrevC]

It's such a hugely discussed topic. Can cables make your system sound better? I feel the answer is NO but the can make it worse! This is the paradox, many people claim that cables are all the same, there are so many parameters as to what defines their audio experience. I have over the last 25 years experienced cables costing thousands of £'s and cables that have been thrown in the box with the item. The supplied cables always sucked. The expensive cables had varying sound characteristics. The latest experience I've had is with 2 type of cables mains and Speaker.

the mains cables have been so grey to term an expression I've personally noticed sound differences when replacing mains cables. I've had the discussion with professional sound engineers who have said its impossible and would never believe otherwise. Last week one of he engineers opened his system up to me. He has a modest Rotel amp, a project record played and a CD player (Sony) his system cables were audioquest and the speaker cables QED. The first thing he challenged was that a speaker cable can heave any effect. We listen to The hunter LP the sound of his system IMO was very poor.

We replaced the speaker cable with a military spec wire that I terminated with decent lockable plugs (Rhodium platd) the wire was silver plated rated at 6AWG. He sound instantly became more listenable. He acknowledged but couldn't understand how they had changed the sound. Next the mains cable. This being his biggest objection. The cable I chose was a DH labs mains cable terminated with Rhodium plugs.

Within 20 seconds he'd acknowledged the sound had been transformed. He insisted on is changing back to his standard cable. A smile came and he said the treble was much more realistic with the other cable. We replaced it again with the DH labs I had terminated needless to say I left his house without either cable!

anyone else experienced the DH Labs mains cables? I'm interested in hearing if you've tried the Red Wave and what if any performance traits you experienced. As for the theory of cables changing sound ink of it as poor quality can deteriorate the signal and better keep it more in tact aiding the transmission of the signal. No cable can fix a bad sourc! They can only aid the transmission in keeping the signal unpolluted

Summary.

Speaker cables can and do make a difference. Mains cables can't and therefore don't.

 

[Golden Ears]

Has anyone heard of tis study? http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/cableshift/cp.html

We have now. And many other reports which suggest cables are the same within sensible limits. Your point was?

My point is science is science. And people choose to follow their own beliefs. I however don't care what this shows or what other reports show. I use my ears. The point here is the scientific quoting people will find 10 reports sharing their view and those on the other side of the fence will find another 10 so the end can only be truly measured by humans listening and their perception of what has or hasn't changed

'Science is science' - true.

10 science reports to validate differences in cables? I dont think so!

Only humans listening is balid? I dont think so.

I'm sorry but you seem to be loosing any credibilty. If u had left it as 'I believe I hear differences between cable a and cable b then some would have been less critical of your lengthy lectures.

im sure googling (if I could be bothered) I could find 10 different studies, there just be thousands out there.

as for humans hearing not being a deciding factor I'm sure you must agree everyone is unique and we are see, feel and sense things in ways other can not possibly know

and lecturing is not my intention. I purely find it it amusing that so many people can have such a negative view to another persons senses and their ability or lack of ability to notice a difference in a audio system when changing a cable.

 

[matt49]

How do you define Science please?

Answers on a postcard to ...

 

[Golden Ears]

:read:

"Again, I must stress that high cost doesn't guarantee that the cable is good or that it will work well in your system. Don't automatically assume that an expensive cable is better than a low-priced one . Listen to a wide variety of price levels and brands. Your efforts will often be rewarded with exacatly the right cable for your system at a reasonable price . "

The complete Guide to High-End Audio by Robert Harley ( Ch. 11 p. 251 ) .

couldnt agree more. I've compared home made cables costing £50 to interconnectors costing over a thousand the owner of the latter said he'd rather I didn't demonstrate my cables again. We sat A/B switching and the only tell that I could notice was when playing classical music the more expensive cable had a slightly warmer texture with the stringed instruments. My cable was made a week before and had not been used, his was several years old a a Transparent Audio set. It's not every cable that demonstrates a hint of difference.

 

[Golden Ears]

It's such a hugely discussed topic. Can cables make your system sound better? I feel the answer is NO but the can make it worse! This is the paradox, many people claim that cables are all the same, there are so many parameters as to what defines their audio experience. I have over the last 25 years experienced cables costing thousands of £'s and cables that have been thrown in the box with the item. The supplied cables always sucked. The expensive cables had varying sound characteristics. The latest experience I've had is with 2 type of cables mains and Speaker.

the mains cables have been so grey to term an expression I've personally noticed sound differences when replacing mains cables. I've had the discussion with professional sound engineers who have said its impossible and would never believe otherwise. Last week one of he engineers opened his system up to me. He has a modest Rotel amp, a project record played and a CD player (Sony) his system cables were audioquest and the speaker cables QED. The first thing he challenged was that a speaker cable can heave any effect. We listen to The hunter LP the sound of his system IMO was very poor.

We replaced the speaker cable with a military spec wire that I terminated with decent lockable plugs (Rhodium platd) the wire was silver plated rated at 6AWG. He sound instantly became more listenable. He acknowledged but couldn't understand how they had changed the sound. Next the mains cable. This being his biggest objection. The cable I chose was a DH labs mains cable terminated with Rhodium plugs.

Within 20 seconds he'd acknowledged the sound had been transformed. He insisted on is changing back to his standard cable. A smile came and he said the treble was much more realistic with the other cable. We replaced it again with the DH labs I had terminated needless to say I left his house without either cable!

anyone else experienced the DH Labs mains cables? I'm interested in hearing if you've tried the Red Wave and what if any performance traits you experienced. As for the theory of cables changing sound ink of it as poor quality can deteriorate the signal and better keep it more in tact aiding the transmission of the signal. No cable can fix a bad sourc! They can only aid the transmission in keeping the signal unpolluted

Summary.

Speaker cables can and do make a difference. Mains cables can't and therefore don't.

you know I shared this opinion once upon a time. Having experience the opposite I can say they do. As to weather they do in all systems who knows. Try the DH Labs Power Plus it's cheap and is an ear opener. I had apt his conversation with a work colleague spouting off science and backing it up with he degree and saying that would go against everything he'd learned and was impossible. Funny how when we tried it in his system I didn't leave with it again. That's a true story! It's impossible to know why but these things do have some effect. Why would industry screen the mains cables if nothing could affect the conductors? They obviously do these things after extensive testing and have proof that airborne interference can be passed into the he equipment. I'm as I say no scientist and this is purely a guess as to why they might be screening mains cables. Again some have better conductors than others and there are so many things that are unexplainable, at least you believe a speaker cable can have an effect that's a start not everything can be demonstrated immediately nor can I say that every device benefits in an audible way from a decent mains cables.

 

[Golden Ears]

How do you define Science please?

I've always looked at science as a way of conducting experiments to obtain results be they conclusive or disputed. I'm not a waking dictionary so I guess there's a much better definition

I partiallly agree that some cables makes difference. BUT what type of cable(s) are we talking about here? Dif. metallurgy (copper, silver plated copper,silver, thickness,insulation). I do believe that cables makes diff. in sound quality But thats depend on what cable is made of.

my point exactly that just because a cable can be used to connect an amp to a CD player doesn't mean they all have the same sound. The cables I'm experimenting with of late excluding the DH Labs have been mil spec wire. Silver plated copper in varying AWG sizes, some shielded some not. I've also tried some Furukawa audio (litz) wire. I tried for kicks a solid core interconnector. The funny thing is I've a more complex hybrid cable with both copper and silver plated copper conductors all stranded and when switching I out on the pre amp I hear 0 diffference, I really thought I'd hear something! But nothing it's like I've done nothing at all. The extra strange thing is one I out is via tha M1A DAC e other direct from the arcam and there is no difference in the quality nor sound that I can hear p. that's spooky

 

[TrevC]

It's such a hugely discussed topic. Can cables make your system sound better? I feel the answer is NO but the can make it worse! This is the paradox, many people claim that cables are all the same, there are so many parameters as to what defines their audio experience. I have over the last 25 years experienced cables costing thousands of £'s and cables that have been thrown in the box with the item. The supplied cables always sucked. The expensive cables had varying sound characteristics. The latest experience I've had is with 2 type of cables mains and Speaker.

the mains cables have been so grey to term an expression I've personally noticed sound differences when replacing mains cables. I've had the discussion with professional sound engineers who have said its impossible and would never believe otherwise. Last week one of he engineers opened his system up to me. He has a modest Rotel amp, a project record played and a CD player (Sony) his system cables were audioquest and the speaker cables QED. The first thing he challenged was that a speaker cable can heave any effect. We listen to The hunter LP the sound of his system IMO was very poor.

We replaced the speaker cable with a military spec wire that I terminated with decent lockable plugs (Rhodium platd) the wire was silver plated rated at 6AWG. He sound instantly became more listenable. He acknowledged but couldn't understand how they had changed the sound. Next the mains cable. This being his biggest objection. The cable I chose was a DH labs mains cable terminated with Rhodium plugs.

Within 20 seconds he'd acknowledged the sound had been transformed. He insisted on is changing back to his standard cable. A smile came and he said the treble was much more realistic with the other cable. We replaced it again with the DH labs I had terminated needless to say I left his house without either cable!

anyone else experienced the DH Labs mains cables? I'm interested in hearing if you've tried the Red Wave and what if any performance traits you experienced. As for the theory of cables changing sound ink of it as poor quality can deteriorate the signal and better keep it more in tact aiding the transmission of the signal. No cable can fix a bad sourc! They can only aid the transmission in keeping the signal unpolluted

Summary.

Speaker cables can and do make a difference. Mains cables can't and therefore don't.

you know I shared this opinion once upon a time. Having experience the opposite I can say they do. As to weather they do in all systems who knows. Try the DH Labs Power Plus it's cheap and is an ear opener. I had apt his conversation with a work colleague spouting off science and backing it up with he degree and saying that would go against everything he'd learned and was impossible. Funny how when we tried it in his system I didn't leave with it again. That's a true story! It's impossible to know why but these things do have some effect. Why would industry screen the mains cables if nothing could affect the conductors? They obviously do these things after extensive testing and have proof that airborne interference can be passed into the he equipment. I'm as I say no scientist and this is purely a guess as to why they might be screening mains cables. Again some have better conductors than others and there are so many things that are unexplainable, at least you believe a speaker cable can have an effect that's a start not everything can be demonstrated immediately nor can I say that every device benefits in an audible way from a decent mains cables.

I wasn't expressing an opinion. It simply isn't possible for a mains cable to affect performance. To understand why that is the case you need to understand electronics.

 

[Golden Ears]

Well you can believe what you want it's a free world. As for understanding electronics and the understanding of how cables can effect electronics this point us mute.

Not sure where you stand on mains quality affecting sound, there are many things that are unexplainable. You're entitled to your opinion but that will not make my experience any less real.

 

[Broner]

I still experience every day that the sun revolves around the world. They tell me that it's the other way around, but I know what I see and if you look outside you will see the same.

 

[TrevC]

Well you can believe what you want it's a free world. As for understanding electronics and the understanding of how cables can effect electronics this point us mute.

Not sure where you stand on mains quality affecting sound, there are many things that are unexplainable. You're entitled to your opinion but that will not make my experience any less real.

You have belief, I have knowledge.

 

[Golden Ears]

Well you can believe what you want it's a free world. As for understanding electronics and the understanding of how cables can effect electronics this point us mute.

Not sure where you stand on mains quality affecting sound, there are many things that are unexplainable. You're entitled to your opinion but that will not make my experience any less real.

You have belief, I have knowledge.

Ok the knowledge is also disputed here http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/cables/mains/StringTheory.html you can take your side of probably non tested nor examined in practice to the author. I'm as I said not bothered buy these reports and tests but you clearly follow the herd with numbers etc. thus guy maybe on your jebel of understanding as I clearly have no idea

 

[steve_1979]

Looking for a bite? Guess you like fishing with your Walkman

No not really.

Just a little joke at the "wife walked in and heard a difference" cliché.

 

[Golden Ears]

Well you can believe what you want it's a free world. As for understanding electronics and the understanding of how cables can effect electronics this point us mute.

Not sure where you stand on mains quality affecting sound, there are many things that are unexplainable. You're entitled to your opinion but that will not make my experience any less real.

You have belief, I have knowledge.

Ok the knowledge is also disputed here http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/cables/mains/StringTheory.html you can take your side of probably non tested nor examined in practice to the author. I'm as I said not bothered buy these reports and tests but you clearly follow the herd with numbers etc. thus guy maybe on your jebel of understanding as I clearly have no idea

I see under closer scrutiny his findings are in theory land and probability backed by science. He partly acknowledges components of a poor nature could possibly be affected by RFI. It's too vague and in all honestly who can say what amplifiers are doing with any of this added interference? The very term implies impurity of signal be it audible or not.

 

[SiUK]

Hello Golden Ears, a word to the wise:

I expect that you have already worked out that on these What Hi*Fi public forums if you mention anything relating to cables that doesn't amount to, '..yeah, and cables don't make any difference whatsoever...so there' you'll quickly find yourself subjected to all manner of verbal diarrhoea. To have an opposite view to the one held by a number here on these forums will mean you are perceived by them to be unbalanced, a heretic, the enemy, a troll, an idiot, a self deceieved (now there's a debate), irrational thinking, primordial soup dwelling imbecile...or some such thing.

There are a handful here that consider it their Science/self given duty to help irksome and wayward ignoramuses out of their delusional stupors, and so they'll attempt to waken the deluded with a few hammer-soft facts (cough) initially, in a cruel to be kind way of course. Remember, the curtness is completely neccessary, it's part of the treatment. So if you are an irksome and wayward ignoramus remember, these folk are just trying to be helpful and jolt you out of that darned crazy dream world you seem to be trapped in, buddy! Once you wake up it'll all be so much clearer and you'll wonder how in heaven's name you could have ever been such a total brainless troglodyte with all those crazy notions about 'stuff'.

Oh, but be warned. If you don't respond well to 'treatment' you'll eventually get a charming Cease and Desist Order from someone or another...but take no notice, no matter how worryingly it is worded. A few good people here don't quite understand that not contributing to a conversation that they no longer want to be a part of simply means not posting any replies...and not posting is actually a perfectly good option and preferable if all you are hanging around for is to bully a forum member. There are loads of other coversations going on on these forums, and new, non cable related ones are being started all of the time, so people with no interest in the topic can, metaphorically, walk away...if they really want to! In the immortal words of Thumper from Bambi, "if you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all".

 

[Golden Ears]

Hello Golden Ears, a word to the wise:

I expect that you have already worked out that on these What Hi*Fi public forums if you mention anything relating to cables that doesn't amount to, '..yeah, and cables don't make any difference whatsoever...so there' you'll quickly find yourself subjected to all manner of verbal diarrhoea. To have an opposite view to the one held by a number here on these forums will mean you are perceived by them to be unbalanced, a heretic, the enemy, a troll, an idiot, a self deceieved (now there's a debate), irrational thinking, primordial soup dwelling imbecile...or some such thing.

There are a handful here that consider it their Science/self given duty to help irksome and wayward ignoramuses out of their delusional stupors, and so they'll attempt to waken the deluded with a few hammer-soft facts (cough) initially, in a cruel to be kind way of course. Remember, the curtness is completely neccessary, it's part of the treatment. So if you are an irksome and wayward ignoramus remember, these folk are just trying to be helpful and jolt you out of that darned crazy dream world you seem to be trapped in, buddy! Once you wake up it'll all be so much clearer and you'll wonder how in heaven's name you could have ever been such a total brainless troglodyte with all those crazy notions about 'stuff'.

Oh, but be warned. If you don't respond well to 'treatment' you'll eventually get a charming Cease and Desist Order from someone or another...but take no notice, no matter how worryingly it is worded. A few good people here don't quite understand that not contributing to a conversation that they no longer want to be a part of simply means not posting any replies...and not posting is actually a perfectly good option and preferable if all you are hanging around for is to bully a forum member. There are loads of other coversations going on on these forums, and new, non cable related ones are being started all of the time, so people with no interest in the topic can, metaphorically, walk away...if they really want to! In the immortal words of Bambi, "if you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all".

Thanks, I hadn't thought that so many had such a strong feeling for other peoples experiences or senses. I clearly should exist to their terms or have no opinion. Hmmm I wonder how China is at this time of year! They almost feel the need to bang the dripum that everything is as I say and everything I say us as you experience it.

I can't change my experience nor stall I. Given the fact that everyone in existence in a product of their experiences I can only assume they've never been allowed to have an opinion based on anything other than other peoples alleged scientific findings, that being said not everything can be experienced through a mathematical equation.

happy days! And thanks for the humorous and well written advice. I'm sure the stone throwers soon will tire as their brainwashing is falling on the (forgive the pun) deaf ears.

 

[Golden Ears]

Looking for a bite? Guess you like fishing with your Walkman

No not really.

Just a little joke at the "wife walked in and heard a difference" cliché.

That's fine! Laugh away there is medicine available

 

[Golden Ears]

While I have so many clearly superior beings here; can someone explsin how a radio signal can be heard through speakers when no tuner is present in the system? I narrowed the source down to an interconnector. But I cannot understand how it is possible!

 

[steve_1979]

Just having another little sing song

Don't be surprised when a crack in the ice

Appears under your feet

You slip out of your depth and out of your mind

With your fear flowing out behind you

As you claw the thin ice.

Carry on chappies.

 

[fr0g]

(less than) Golden Ears.

One thing.

It's "The point is moot", not "mute".

It's irritating the hell out of me.

I appreciate you are from the land of the Fjords (and very beautiful it is too, if stupidly expensive), but that is one that's cropped up a few times.

 

[Golden Ears]

Anyone wanting to see a semi constructive discussion around mains cables and their implied benefits be them mathematical of physical can look at thesis forum. I found it a pleasant read.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/empirical-evidence-for-the-effect-of-audiophile-mains-cable.208763/

 

[Golden Ears]

Beklager og tusen takk!

Many thanks! I don't like to get things so wrong they irritate! I'll be sure to remember that nice to know in the middle of differing opinions one can take the time to help one better their skills.

 

[Covenanter]

While I have so many clearly superior beings here; can someone explsin how a radio signal can be heard through speakers when no tuner is present in the system? I narrowed the source down to an interconnector. But I cannot understand how it is possible!

I suspect this is because you lack knowledge. Might I humbly suggest that you try to actually find out some things?

Chris

 

[steve_1979]

I still experience every day that the sun revolves around the world. They tell me that it's the other way around, but I know what I see and if you look outside you will see the same.

When I look up at the sky (both at day and night) I see it as the true three dimensional space that it really is. After studying astronomy I understand where my place is on this spinning ball of rock and what my position is orientated to the rest of the solar system. If you watch the sun/moon/planets every day for long enough and notice how the move in relation to each other you will eventually 'see' the plane of the solar system, where all of the planets currently are in their orbits, what direction they're moving, how far away each one is a this moment in time and where they are in relation to each other all in 3D.

I was totally blown away after watching the changing positions of the sun/moon/planets every night for a few months and then one day suddenly 'seeing' its true 3D shape in space for the first time (as opposed to it just looking like a 2D black background with random white dots on it).

 

[Golden Ears]

While I have so many clearly superior beings here; can someone explsin how a radio signal can be heard through speakers when no tuner is present in the system? I narrowed the source down to an interconnector. But I cannot understand how it is possible!

I suspect this is because you lack knowledge. Might I humbly suggest that you try to actually find out some things?

Chris

so you've nothing of use to aid my question only felt a cheap snipe was in order :clap: If someone is seeking advice only to be told you lack knowledge and to seek some they must truly be :help: in some type of madness. I had asked for advice as clearly this is something I have no idea about.

I have an understanding of plenty and for nog knowing everything I don't see that being a weakness but an acknowledgement within its self