Bi-Wiring - is it worth it?

[TB303]

Hello,

My new setup with have the B&W CM10 speakers and a Classe CAP2100 integrated amp.

The amp has double binding posts - 4 per chanenl so 8 in total (teh speakers too).

In the manual Classe says:

In many cases, the benefit is a subjectively improved level of clarity and detail from the speaker, as a result of being able to feed the two
separate sections of its crossover and driver complement with identical, yet separate signals.

I know many consider it a waste of time, yet I'm inclined to think Classe knows what they are doing. What do you think?

Thanks!

 

[andyjm]

Hello,

My new setup with have the B&W CM10 speakers and a Classe CAP2100 integrated amp.

The amp has double binding posts - 4 per chanenl so 8 in total (teh speakers too).

In the manual Classe says:

In many cases, the benefit is a subjectively improved level of clarity and detail from the speaker, as a result of being able to feed the two
separate sections of its crossover and driver complement with identical, yet separate signals.

I know many consider it a waste of time, yet I'm inclined to think Classe knows what they are doing. What do you think?

Thanks!

"In many cases, the benefit is a subjectively improved level of clarity and detail from the speaker, as a result of being able to feed the two
separate sections of its crossover and driver complement with identical, yet separate signals."

Claptrap written by the marketing department. Makes no engineering sense.

 

[Broner]

Hello,

My new setup with have the B&W CM10 speakers and a Classe CAP2100 integrated amp.

The amp has double binding posts - 4 per chanenl so 8 in total (teh speakers too).

In the manual Classe says:

In many cases, the benefit is a subjectively improved level of clarity and detail from the speaker, as a result of being able to feed the two
separate sections of its crossover and driver complement with identical, yet separate signals.

I know many consider it a waste of time, yet I'm inclined to think Classe knows what they are doing. What do you think?

Thanks!

"In many cases, the benefit is a subjectively improved level of clarity and detail from the speaker, as a result of being able to feed the two
separate sections of its crossover and driver complement with identical, yet separate signals."

Claptrap written by the marketing department. Makes no engineering sense.

Highlighted the input from the legal department.

 

[CnoEvil]

Like all contentious questions, the only way to know for sure, is to talk a dealer into letting you try it. You will get people saying it makes little or no difference, and people who say it had a beneficial effect.....leaving you none the wiser

IME. You have a few other (controversial) options (as well as doing nothing):

- Put the money to better cable

- Replace the cheap links with better cable

- Try connecting it up differently, connect speaker wire to the other set of terminals and change links accordingly)

Experimentation is the way to go.

 

[matt49]

As usual, things maye be a bit more complicated than the foo-busters claim.

Jim Lesurf's meaurements suggest that biwiring may in some circumstances alter a system's frequency response.

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/biwire/Page3.html

Whether such effects (if they exist) make any audible difference remains to be proved. I think it's highly unlikely. Spending money on better speakers or acoustic treatments remains a far better path to improvement.

 

[andyjm]

Like all contentious questions, the only way to know for sure, is to talk a dealer into letting you try it. You will get people saying it makes little or no difference, and people who say it had a beneficial effect.....leaving you none the wiser

IME. You have a few other (controversial) options (as well as doing nothing):

- Put the money to better cable

- Replace the cheap links with better cable

- Try connecting it up differently, connect speaker wire to the other set of terminals and change links accordingly)

Experimentation is the way to go.

Given the well researched effects of expectation bias, and the lack of any engineering basis for bi-wiring, if you hear any difference the chances are it is in your head.

As for "Try connecting it up differently, connect speaker wire to the other set of terminals and change links accordingly", 10 seconds drawing the circuit on the back of an envelope will indicate the futility of this exercise.

 

[abacus]

Bi Wiring could theoretically alter the sound as adding the extra resistance between the LPF & HPF would take it out of what the manufacture designed it for. (Thus always best to be avoided)

The main use for the separate terminals on the speaker is for bi-amping which completely isolates the LPF & HPF, thus always giving a beneficial improvement. (It removes any reaction between the LPF & HPF)

To summarize:

Bi- Wiring can only make things worse, however bi-amping will always give an improvement.

Changing the links for cable (Even Bell Wire) will make absolutely no difference to the sound whatsoever.

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[TB303]

My (minimal) understanding of the subject suggests that there benfits are that with bi-wiring the bass section and teh mid and trebel sections each get's theier own signal without the crosovers working to transfer it - and presumably so degrading eth sound squality a bit...

I also heard people suggestion that the links inside the speaker terminal (the ones you remove for bi-amping/bi-wiring) are of low quality - even in high end spekaers like teh CM10s and it's better to remove them and connect the cables accordingly, what do you think?

Thanks!

 

[Glacialpath]

Hello,

My new setup with have the B&W CM10 speakers and a Classe CAP2100 integrated amp.

The amp has double binding posts - 4 per chanenl so 8 in total (teh speakers too).

In the manual Classe says:

In many cases, the benefit is a subjectively improved level of clarity and detail from the speaker, as a result of being able to feed the two
separate sections of its crossover and driver complement with identical, yet separate signals.

I know many consider it a waste of time, yet I'm inclined to think Classe knows what they are doing. What do you think?

Thanks!

Are the binding post ports on the amp marked A and B? If so I don't think using both at the same time will work in the same way as Bi-Amping. I'm guessing the manual says the amp can be used in this way. In which case ignore that comment.

Bi-Wiring is usually done from just the L+R of the A or B outputs with the 4 wire's also usually from Bi-Wirinng cable marked accordingly for connection. I think 2 lots of regular speaker cable can be used, You just need to know what binding post to connect to on the speakers.

Bi-Amping, in most cases uses 2 seperate amps. To my ears thisdoes make the audio quite a bit clearer. On te same pricnable a more powerful amp will give you better audio than a weaker amp, one amp driving the tweeter and one driving the driver should be clearer too. Only your ears will tell you so.

My Home Cinema fronts are Bi-Amped. The AVR powers the tweeter and I have a Cambridge Audio P500 power amp feeding the driver speaker. I got a more open sound stage.

The Cable madman (Glacialpath) :rockout:

 

[TB303]

This is what the backplate of the amp looks like, if it helps:

http://classeaudio.com/images-product/CAP-2100_B_LG.jpg

What do you think?

Thanks!

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi TB303

I'll advice you to single wire and with simple basic speaker cables.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[sublime]

depends on the speakers and partnering equipment. I have bi wired speakers which had no effect at all and tri wired speakers which made a small improvment. Bi amping is where it's at and is probably what many manufactures have included the double (or triple) binding posts for. Replacing the metal connecting plates with decent speaker wire can help (try and use the same cable as your speaker cable). Speaker positioning and room acoustics also play there part in what you hear.

 

[Overdose]

Hello,

My new setup with have the B&W CM10 speakers and a Classe CAP2100 integrated amp.

The amp has double binding posts - 4 per chanenl so 8 in total (teh speakers too).

In the manual Classe says:

In many cases, the benefit is a subjectively improved level of clarity and detail from the speaker, as a result of being able to feed the two
separate sections of its crossover and driver complement with identical, yet separate signals.

I know many consider it a waste of time, yet I'm inclined to think Classe knows what they are doing. What do you think?

Thanks!

Biwiring will reap no noticeable benefits and even passive bi-amping will not necessarily improve matters. As has been advised already, simply use a well constructed multistrand cable and use same to bridge binding posts. I'm sure Classe do know how to build an amplifier, but their marketing department certainly know how to sell their punters a line. I think the 'subjective' caveat says it all.

 

[Al ears]

Hello,

My new setup with have the B&W CM10 speakers and a Classe CAP2100 integrated amp.

The amp has double binding posts - 4 per chanenl so 8 in total (teh speakers too).

In the manual Classe says:

In many cases, the benefit is a subjectively improved level of clarity and detail from the speaker, as a result of being able to feed the two
separate sections of its crossover and driver complement with identical, yet separate signals.

I know many consider it a waste of time, yet I'm inclined to think Classe knows what they are doing. What do you think?

Thanks!

Biwiring will reap no noticeable benefits and even passive bi-amping will not necessarily improve matters. As has been advised already, simply use a well constructed multistrand cable and use same to bridge binding posts. I'm sure Classe do know how to build an amplifier, but their marketing department certainly know how to sell their punters a line. I think the 'subjective' caveat says it all.

And to keep it short so do I.

Having tried with about six different set-ups in my many years with hifi I can say that, personally, it has never made a discernable difference.

I tried because I like to experiment, I didn't go out and buy extra cables as I've had 2 sets for years. As stated in other posts it is worth bi-amping but this is a whole new (financial) kettle of fish.

To the OP I would say go ahead and try it if you want. That's what it's all about really.

 

[ISAC69]

Bi-Wiring is voodoo , As advised by others it's better to invest in better cables and/or if you can afford it in bi-amping (more power =more

control ) .

 

[Vladimir]

Oh well. :beer:

 

[davedotco]

Bi-Wiring is voodoo , As advised by others it's better to invest in better cables and/or if you can afford it in bi-amping (more power =more

control ) .

Bi amping does not give you more power, that is a falacy.

In a typical two way speaker the crossover is around 2.5-3.5 kHz. More than 90% of the power delivered to the speakers is below the crossover point, in some cases even more, depending on the music,

Relieving the bass amplifier of the high frequencies, as in bi-amping, will make no discernable difference to the power demands placed on this amplifier so there is no effective increase in power.

I remain sceptical about the value of passive bi-amping, I can see no technical reason why it should make a difference and I have never heard a demonstration that convinces me of it's worth.

Though I can see the attraction in system building and financial terms I think you are far better off just buying a better (power) amp.

 

[Glacialpath]

This is what the backplate of the amp looks like, if it helps:

http://classeaudio.com/images-product/CAP-2100_B_LG.jpg

What do you think?

Thanks!

Hello again. I wish I had actually looked at your amp before I posted last time. Basically if you use both sets of binding posts on the back of the amp for both speakers you will be Bi-Amping as your Classe is a pre and power amp in one unit. No need to go and buy a second amp. Just the right kind of matching speaker cable. Connect the Pre amp bonding posts (i imagine the top pair are the pre amp ones as I couldn't find a clear description in the user manual. Contact Classe for clarification) to the + and - of the tweeter (or High) and the other pair to the + and - of the driver (or Low.....obiously )

Which input connections are you using to connect your source and what is your source? Also what kind of music are you mostly listening to?

Te Cable Madman (Glacialpath) :rockout:

 

[davedotco]

This is what the backplate of the amp looks like, if it helps:

http://classeaudio.com/images-product/CAP-2100_B_LG.jpg

What do you think?

Thanks!

Hello again. I wish I had actually looked at your amp before I posted last time. Basically if you use both sets of binding posts on the back of the amp for both speakers you will be Bi-Amping as your Classe is a pre and power amp in one unit. No need to go and buy a second amp. Just the right kind of matching speaker cable. Connect the Pre amp bonding posts (i imagine the top pair are the pre amp ones as I couldn't find a clear description in the user manual. Contact Classe for clarification) to the + and - of the tweeter (or High) and the other pair to the + and - of the driver (or Low.....obiously )

Which input connections are you using to connect your source and what is your source? Also what kind of music are you mostly listening to?

Te Cable Madman (Glacialpath) :rockout:

Totally incorrect....... :wall:

The CAP2100 is a straightforward 100wpc integrated amplifier. It can not bi-amp anything by itself.

The two sets of output terminals were included at the request of their favourite cable company, to allow bi-wireing and increase sales of speaker cables.

Otherwise it is a rather nice if somewhat pricy integrated amplifier.

 

[TrevC]

This is what the backplate of the amp looks like, if it helps:

http://classeaudio.com/images-product/CAP-2100_B_LG.jpg

What do you think?

Thanks!

Hello again. I wish I had actually looked at your amp before I posted last time. Basically if you use both sets of binding posts on the back of the amp for both speakers you will be Bi-Amping as your Classe is a pre and power amp in one unit. No need to go and buy a second amp. Just the right kind of matching speaker cable. Connect the Pre amp bonding posts (i imagine the top pair are the pre amp ones as I couldn't find a clear description in the user manual. Contact Classe for clarification) to the + and - of the tweeter (or High) and the other pair to the + and - of the driver (or Low.....obiously )

Which input connections are you using to connect your source and what is your source? Also what kind of music are you mostly listening to?

Te Cable Madman (Glacialpath) :rockout:

Comically incorrect. Why did you post it?

 

[Glacialpath]

Comically incorrect. Why did you post it?

The website states the CAP-2100 is a combination of the CP-500 and a CA-2100. So I have misunderstood that, thinking the amp is devided into the 2 seperate amps in one box and the double binding posts on the back work accordingly? Well my bad and I've learnt something.

 

[nopiano]

My (minimal) understanding of the subject suggests that there benfits are that with bi-wiring the bass section and teh mid and trebel sections each get's theier own signal without the crosovers working to transfer it - and presumably so degrading eth sound squality a bit...

I also heard people suggestion that the links inside the speaker terminal (the ones you remove for bi-amping/bi-wiring) are of low quality - even in high end spekaers like teh CM10s and it's better to remove them and connect the cables accordingly, what do you think

Not really. The bi-wiring does not avoid the crossover as you surmise. That only happens in rare bi-amping with external crossovers.

The links may well be dubious, as many report improvements by replacing them. I suppose a cynic will say that might be a ploy to show biwiring sounds better. I've never had my current speakers other than biwired as that was how they were demoed and I wanted that sound! Spending about 20% of the speaker cost on cables was probably excessive, but after fifteen years at least I have never thought they could be better!

 

[Vladimir]

I'm begining to notice the word "nonsense" is being replaced by "comical". Funny these hipster trends init?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

To the op

Bi-wire your speakers, find out for yourself.

Get the cleanest track you have - the best produced and run the the cable with the plates in place then try it with your bi-wire in place. And use both A & B on your amp. There are a couple of configs you can use.

1) use speaker A to drive tweeters and B to drive bass

2)swap the cables on the right side i.e as above but have the A - speaker out driving the left tweeter and the RIGHT bass & B driving LEFT bass and RIGHT tweeter -

you may need an imaging test CD to make sure you don't mess that up.

If you hear no difference then go back to single wire and sell your 2nd run of cable. Your speakers are good enough to warrent the experimentation - let us know your findings.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm begining to notice the word "nonsense" is being replaced by "comical". Funny these hipster trends init?

Finding the most humiliating phrase takes some trial and error.