Bi-Wiring - is it worth it?

[Thompsonuxb]

This is what the backplate of the amp looks like, if it helps:

http://classeaudio.com/images-product/CAP-2100_B_LG.jpg

What do you think?

Thanks!

Hello again. I wish I had actually looked at your amp before I posted last time. Basically if you use both sets of binding posts on the back of the amp for both speakers you will be Bi-Amping as your Classe is a pre and power amp in one unit. No need to go and buy a second amp. Just the right kind of matching speaker cable. Connect the Pre amp bonding posts (i imagine the top pair are the pre amp ones as I couldn't find a clear description in the user manual. Contact Classe for clarification) to the + and - of the tweeter (or High) and the other pair to the + and - of the driver (or Low.....obiously )

Which input connections are you using to connect your source and what is your source? Also what kind of music are you mostly listening to?

Te Cable Madman (Glacialpath) :rockout:

Totally incorrect....... :wall:

The CAP2100 is a straightforward 100wpc integrated amplifier. It can not bi-amp anything by itself.

The two sets of output terminals were included at the request of their favourite cable company, to allow bi-wireing and increase sales of speaker cables.

Otherwise it is a rather nice if somewhat pricy integrated amplifier.

the bit in bold - expand pls.

Both sides have the same output - connect both pairs and you lose nothing in performance.

What you do though is provide each driver with an uncompromised signal if the amp is used in this way. How does that differ from using 2 power amps to drive each speaker?

In fact explain how bi-amping can make a difference and configuring a single amp with provision for 2 pairs of speakers in this way won't?

 

[TrevC]

To the op

Bi-wire your speakers, find out for yourself.

Get the cleanest track you have - the best produced and run the the cable with the plates in place then try it with your bi-wire in place. And use both A & B on your amp. There are a couple of configs you can use.

1) use speaker A to drive tweeters and B to drive bass

2)swap the cables on the right side i.e as above but have the A - speaker out driving the left tweeter and the RIGHT bass & B driving LEFT bass and RIGHT tweeter -

you may need an imaging test CD to make sure you don't mess that up.

If you hear no difference then go back to single wire and sell your 2nd run of cable. Your speakers are good enough to warrent the experimentation - let us know your findings.

Or, as an alternative, don't bother. Put the brass plates back on the speakers and connect with thick multistrand.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

To the op

Bi-wire your speakers, find out for yourself.

Get the cleanest track you have - the best produced and run the the cable with the plates in place then try it with your bi-wire in place. And use both A & B on your amp. There are a couple of configs you can use.

1) use speaker A to drive tweeters and B to drive bass

2)swap the cables on the right side i.e as above but have the A - speaker out driving the left tweeter and the RIGHT bass & B driving LEFT bass and RIGHT tweeter -

you may need an imaging test CD to make sure you don't mess that up.

If you hear no difference then go back to single wire and sell your 2nd run of cable. Your speakers are good enough to warrent the experimentation - let us know your findings.

Or, as an alternative, don't bother. Put the brass plates back on the speakers and connect with thick multistrand.

Lol... you're lucky you edited your idiot response, How long did it take to type it.

To the OP your choice ref who's advise you take. But with your kit I'd try just to see.

if you have any difficulty there are web pages explaining the config, just look them up.

 

[TrevC]

To the op

Bi-wire your speakers, find out for yourself.

Get the cleanest track you have - the best produced and run the the cable with the plates in place then try it with your bi-wire in place. And use both A & B on your amp. There are a couple of configs you can use.

1) use speaker A to drive tweeters and B to drive bass

2)swap the cables on the right side i.e as above but have the A - speaker out driving the left tweeter and the RIGHT bass & B driving LEFT bass and RIGHT tweeter -

you may need an imaging test CD to make sure you don't mess that up.

If you hear no difference then go back to single wire and sell your 2nd run of cable. Your speakers are good enough to warrent the experimentation - let us know your findings.

Or, as an alternative, don't bother. Put the brass plates back on the speakers and connect with thick multistrand.

Lol... you're lucky you edited your idiot response, How long did it take to type it.

To the OP your choice ref who's advise you take. But with your kit I'd try just to see.

if you have any difficulty there are web pages explaining the config, just look them up.

I see your idiot response is still there!

 

[Vladimir]

I really enjoy these intellectual debates full of technical language.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

To the op

Bi-wire your speakers, find out for yourself.

Get the cleanest track you have - the best produced and run the the cable with the plates in place then try it with your bi-wire in place. And use both A & B on your amp. There are a couple of configs you can use.

1) use speaker A to drive tweeters and B to drive bass

2)swap the cables on the right side i.e as above but have the A - speaker out driving the left tweeter and the RIGHT bass & B driving LEFT bass and RIGHT tweeter -

you may need an imaging test CD to make sure you don't mess that up.

If you hear no difference then go back to single wire and sell your 2nd run of cable. Your speakers are good enough to warrent the experimentation - let us know your findings.

Or, as an alternative, don't bother. Put the brass plates back on the speakers and connect with thick multistrand.

Lol... you're lucky you edited your idiot response, How long did it take to type it.

To the OP your choice ref who's advise you take. But with your kit I'd try just to see.

if you have any difficulty there are web pages explaining the config, just look them up.

I see your idiot response is still there!

Explain to me and TB303 how what I posted concerns you. I was responding to his orignal post.

He has the choice to do or don't - how does that need any sort of response from you if its not constructive or necessary?

I don't recall asking you for anything.

 

[abacus]

This is what the backplate of the amp looks like, if it helps:

http://classeaudio.com/images-product/CAP-2100_B_LG.jpg

What do you think?

Thanks!

Hello again. I wish I had actually looked at your amp before I posted last time. Basically if you use both sets of binding posts on the back of the amp for both speakers you will be Bi-Amping as your Classe is a pre and power amp in one unit. No need to go and buy a second amp. Just the right kind of matching speaker cable. Connect the Pre amp bonding posts (i imagine the top pair are the pre amp ones as I couldn't find a clear description in the user manual. Contact Classe for clarification) to the + and - of the tweeter (or High) and the other pair to the + and - of the driver (or Low.....obiously )

Which input connections are you using to connect your source and what is your source? Also what kind of music are you mostly listening to?

Te Cable Madman (Glacialpath) :rockout:

Totally incorrect....... :wall:

The CAP2100 is a straightforward 100wpc integrated amplifier. It can not bi-amp anything by itself.

The two sets of output terminals were included at the request of their favourite cable company, to allow bi-wireing and increase sales of speaker cables.

Otherwise it is a rather nice if somewhat pricy integrated amplifier.

the bit in bold - expand pls.

Both sides have the same output - connect both pairs and you lose nothing in performance.

What you do though is provide each driver with an uncompromised signal if the amp is used in this way. How does that differ from using 2 power amps to drive each speaker?

In fact explain how bi-amping can make a difference and configuring a single amp with provision for 2 pairs of speakers in this way won't?

Bi wiring adds resistance between the speaker LPF & HPF (Although only a minute amount) so theoretically may make the sound worse. (Not as the manufacture intended)

Bi amping isolates the speaker LPF & HPF thus preventing any interference between them. (And is one of the reasons for the improvement in sound)

Hope this clears up the confusion

Bill

 

[steve_1979]

Bi-Wiring - is it worth it?

No.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

This is what the backplate of the amp looks like, if it helps:

http://classeaudio.com/images-product/CAP-2100_B_LG.jpg

What do you think?

Thanks!

Hello again. I wish I had actually looked at your amp before I posted last time. Basically if you use both sets of binding posts on the back of the amp for both speakers you will be Bi-Amping as your Classe is a pre and power amp in one unit. No need to go and buy a second amp. Just the right kind of matching speaker cable. Connect the Pre amp bonding posts (i imagine the top pair are the pre amp ones as I couldn't find a clear description in the user manual. Contact Classe for clarification) to the + and - of the tweeter (or High) and the other pair to the + and - of the driver (or Low.....obiously )

Which input connections are you using to connect your source and what is your source? Also what kind of music are you mostly listening to?

Te Cable Madman (Glacialpath) :rockout:

Totally incorrect....... :wall:

The CAP2100 is a straightforward 100wpc integrated amplifier. It can not bi-amp anything by itself.

The two sets of output terminals were included at the request of their favourite cable company, to allow bi-wireing and increase sales of speaker cables.

Otherwise it is a rather nice if somewhat pricy integrated amplifier.

the bit in bold - expand pls.

Both sides have the same output - connect both pairs and you lose nothing in performance.

What you do though is provide each driver with an uncompromised signal if the amp is used in this way. How does that differ from using 2 power amps to drive each speaker?

In fact explain how bi-amping can make a difference and configuring a single amp with provision for 2 pairs of speakers in this way won't?

Bi wiring adds resistance between the speaker LPF & HPF (Although only a minute amount) so theoretically may make the sound worse. (Not as the manufacture intended)

Bi amping isolates the speaker LPF & HPF thus preventing any interference between them. (And is one of the reasons for the improvement in sound)

Hope this clears up the confusion

Bill

If your using one set of speaker outs on the amp I see that - but if your amp has provision for two pairs of speakers that is not the case.

I know some amps cannot be biwired I recall auditioning a Arcam 65 back in the day with a pair of eltax 5 floorstanders, the amp ran fine single wired started cutting out when the dealer put a 2nd run in the terminals (at my request)

 

[Rethep]

Bi-Wiring - is it worth it?

No.

+1!

Actually to me it means "buy more wire". If you listen long enough (till infinity) you will here the difference ;-)

 

[davedotco]

This is what the backplate of the amp looks like, if it helps:

http://classeaudio.com/images-product/CAP-2100_B_LG.jpg

What do you think?

Thanks!

Hello again. I wish I had actually looked at your amp before I posted last time. Basically if you use both sets of binding posts on the back of the amp for both speakers you will be Bi-Amping as your Classe is a pre and power amp in one unit. No need to go and buy a second amp. Just the right kind of matching speaker cable. Connect the Pre amp bonding posts (i imagine the top pair are the pre amp ones as I couldn't find a clear description in the user manual. Contact Classe for clarification) to the + and - of the tweeter (or High) and the other pair to the + and - of the driver (or Low.....obiously )

Which input connections are you using to connect your source and what is your source? Also what kind of music are you mostly listening to?

Te Cable Madman (Glacialpath) :rockout:

Totally incorrect....... :wall:

The CAP2100 is a straightforward 100wpc integrated amplifier. It can not bi-amp anything by itself.

The two sets of output terminals were included at the request of their favourite cable company, to allow bi-wireing and increase sales of speaker cables.

Otherwise it is a rather nice if somewhat pricy integrated amplifier.

the bit in bold - expand pls.

Both sides have the same output - connect both pairs and you lose nothing in performance.

What you do though is provide each driver with an uncompromised signal if the amp is used in this way. How does that differ from using 2 power amps to drive each speaker?

In fact explain how bi-amping can make a difference and configuring a single amp with provision for 2 pairs of speakers in this way won't?

Bi wiring adds resistance between the speaker LPF & HPF (Although only a minute amount) so theoretically may make the sound worse. (Not as the manufacture intended)

Bi amping isolates the speaker LPF & HPF thus preventing any interference between them. (And is one of the reasons for the improvement in sound)

Hope this clears up the confusion

Bill

Also, in theory the HF amplifier should have greater headroom for high frequency transients, but in reality I doubt if the difference is even auduble, let alone significant.

I have yet to here an improvement by using passive bi-amping that was worth the cost of the extra speaker cables, let alone the cost of the extra power amp. i have been unable to confirm this by blind testing because I do not have the time or the interest, but I did the dem many times as a dealer and sold a fair amount of extra amplifiers to customers who thought it worthwhile.

I never heard anything resembling a significant improvement though, and when I did try it on my own setup I was unimpressed, the extra amp which I could have 'borrowed' at no cost went back after a few days, it was in the way.

 

[Overdose]

This is what the backplate of the amp looks like, if it helps:

http://classeaudio.com/images-product/CAP-2100_B_LG.jpg

What do you think?

Thanks!

Hello again. I wish I had actually looked at your amp before I posted last time. Basically if you use both sets of binding posts on the back of the amp for both speakers you will be Bi-Amping as your Classe is a pre and power amp in one unit. No need to go and buy a second amp. Just the right kind of matching speaker cable. Connect the Pre amp bonding posts (i imagine the top pair are the pre amp ones as I couldn't find a clear description in the user manual. Contact Classe for clarification) to the + and - of the tweeter (or High) and the other pair to the + and - of the driver (or Low.....obiously )

Which input connections are you using to connect your source and what is your source? Also what kind of music are you mostly listening to?

Te Cable Madman (Glacialpath) :rockout:

Totally incorrect....... :wall:

The CAP2100 is a straightforward 100wpc integrated amplifier. It can not bi-amp anything by itself.

The two sets of output terminals were included at the request of their favourite cable company, to allow bi-wireing and increase sales of speaker cables.

Otherwise it is a rather nice if somewhat pricy integrated amplifier.

the bit in bold - expand pls.

Both sides have the same output - connect both pairs and you lose nothing in performance.

What you do though is provide each driver with an uncompromised signal if the amp is used in this way. How does that differ from using 2 power amps to drive each speaker?

In fact explain how bi-amping can make a difference and configuring a single amp with provision for 2 pairs of speakers in this way won't?

Bi wiring adds resistance between the speaker LPF & HPF (Although only a minute amount) so theoretically may make the sound worse. (Not as the manufacture intended)

Bi amping isolates the speaker LPF & HPF thus preventing any interference between them. (And is one of the reasons for the improvement in sound)

Hope this clears up the confusion

Bill

I would say that this is incorrect. Biwiring actually decreases overall impedeance. Passive biamping does not isolate anything and a full spectrum signal is sent to each driver respectively, with the crossover circuit filtering for each accordingly.

Active biamping is a different matter entirely and where significant gains are to be had.

 

[Vladimir]

I never heard anything resembling a significant improvement though, and when I did try it on my own setup I was unimpressed, the extra amp which I could have 'borrowed' at no cost went back after a few days, it was in the way.

What was the setup? Give us the tasty geek details.

 

[davedotco]

I never heard anything resembling a significant improvement though, and when I did try it on my own setup I was unimpressed, the extra amp which I could have 'borrowed' at no cost went back after a few days, it was in the way.

What was the setup? Give us the tasty geek details.

Naim, for my sins. Nac 72, Hi-cap, Nap 140, Epos ES14s (Original)

A second 140 driven from the hi-cap did nothing, the 250 was better but the 'improvement' wore off in a couple of weeks so all the Naim kit went back too. Glad to get rid of it.

I actually went back to my cheap Onix OA21 integrated for a while, great combination with the Epos. Nice Xerxes/RB300/ATOC7 front end too.

Terrific system at a resonably sensible price, about £1500-1600 or so as I recall. Play it to some of the vinyl fanciers around these days and they would have a collective attack of the vapours.

In the shop I did the dem with all manner of equipment, nothing did much for me as I recall.

 

[matt49]

Bi wiring adds resistance between the speaker LPF & HPF (Although only a minute amount) so theoretically may make the sound worse. (Not as the manufacture intended)

Bi amping isolates the speaker LPF & HPF thus preventing any interference between them. (And is one of the reasons for the improvement in sound)

Hope this clears up the confusion

Bill

I would say that this is incorrect. Biwiring actually decreases overall impedeance. Passive biamping does not isolate anything and a full spectrum signal is sent to each driver respectively, with the crossover circuit filtering for each accordingly.

Active biamping is a different matter entirely and where significant gains are to be had.

Again, I'd recommend reading this: http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/biwire/Page3.html

Jim Lesurf is a well respected electronics expert, formerly Reader in Electronics at the University of St Andrews.

Of course, he may be wrong -- I'd be interested if anyone here could demonstrate that he is.

And assuming the effects he found are real, it doesn't mean they're audible. (They probably aren't.)

Matt

 

[andyjm]

Bi wiring adds resistance between the speaker LPF & HPF (Although only a minute amount) so theoretically may make the sound worse. (Not as the manufacture intended)

Bi amping isolates the speaker LPF & HPF thus preventing any interference between them. (And is one of the reasons for the improvement in sound)

Hope this clears up the confusion

Bill

I would say that this is incorrect. Biwiring actually decreases overall impedeance. Passive biamping does not isolate anything and a full spectrum signal is sent to each driver respectively, with the crossover circuit filtering for each accordingly.

Active biamping is a different matter entirely and where significant gains are to be had.

Again, I'd recommend reading this: http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/biwire/Page3.html

Jim Lesurf is a well respected electronics expert, formerly Reader in Electronics at the University of St Andrews.

Of course, he may be wrong -- I'd be interested if anyone here could demonstrate that he is.

And assuming the effects he found are real, it doesn't mean they're audible. (They probably aren't.)

Matt

In principle, Jim is correct. I haven't checked Jim's maths, but I have no reason to believe he has stuffed it up.

In summary, in comparison to a single wired system, biwiring with two runs of the the same cable will show a small pickup in frequency response at the point the drivers crossover. It is unlikely to be detectable.

If you are determined to run two lengths of cable, keep the jumper in place on the speaker and then the small bump in frequency response will go away, and you will have the benefit of lower cable resistance.

 

[andyjm]

I would say that this is incorrect. Biwiring actually decreases overall impedeance. Passive biamping does not isolate anything and a full spectrum signal is sent to each driver respectively, with the crossover circuit filtering for each accordingly.

Active biamping is a different matter entirely and where significant gains are to be had.

Partly correct. Passive biwiring only decreases effective impedance at the cross over point (see the link above). Another reason why it is a waste of copper.

 

[andyjm]

Bi wiring adds resistance between the speaker LPF & HPF (Although only a minute amount) so theoretically may make the sound worse. (Not as the manufacture intended)

Bi amping isolates the speaker LPF & HPF thus preventing any interference between them. (And is one of the reasons for the improvement in sound)

Hope this clears up the confusion

Bill

While biwiring does increase the resistance between LPH and HPF, it is the resistance between the amp and the speaker that matters. Except at the crossover point, the two filters should be independent. It is unlikely that the effect you describe is significant, or audible.

The benefit of biamping is primarily the replacement of a high level crossover in the speaker with a low level filter prior to the amplifiers. It is much easier to make a high quality low level filter than a high quality high level filter. A secondary benefit is to allow the amps to be closely matched to the drivers without having a crossover in between.

 

[Richard Allen]

Bi wiring adds resistance between the speaker LPF & HPF (Although only a minute amount) so theoretically may make the sound worse. (Not as the manufacture intended)

Bi amping isolates the speaker LPF & HPF thus preventing any interference between them. (And is one of the reasons for the improvement in sound)

Hope this clears up the confusion

Bill

While biwiring does increase the resistance between LPH and HPF, it is the resistance between the amp and the speaker that matters. Except at the crossover point, the two filters should be independent. It is unlikely that the effect you describe is significant, or audible.

The benefit of biamping is primarily the replacement of a high level crossover in the speaker with a low level filter prior to the amplifiers. It is much easier to make a high quality low level filter than a high quality high level filter. A secondary benefit is to allow the amps to be closely matched to the drivers without having a crossover in between.

Errr, no. That's a proper active set up with the crossover before the amps. With bi-amping, the LF and HF drivers are isolated from each other but there is still a filter in between the drive unit and the amp, albeit only half of it. Bill is right in what he says. OP please be very careful with some of the information coming out on here.

 

[andyjm]

Bi wiring adds resistance between the speaker LPF & HPF (Although only a minute amount) so theoretically may make the sound worse. (Not as the manufacture intended)

Bi amping isolates the speaker LPF & HPF thus preventing any interference between them. (And is one of the reasons for the improvement in sound)

Hope this clears up the confusion

Bill

While biwiring does increase the resistance between LPH and HPF, it is the resistance between the amp and the speaker that matters. Except at the crossover point, the two filters should be independent. It is unlikely that the effect you describe is significant, or audible.

The benefit of biamping is primarily the replacement of a high level crossover in the speaker with a low level filter prior to the amplifiers. It is much easier to make a high quality low level filter than a high quality high level filter. A secondary benefit is to allow the amps to be closely matched to the drivers without having a crossover in between.

Errr, no. That's a proper active set up with the crossover before the amps. With bi-amping, the LF and HF drivers are isolated from each other but there is still a filter in between the drive unit and the amp, albeit only half of it. Bill is right in what he says. OP please be very careful with some of the information coming out on here.

Thanks Richard, I should have been clearer. Must be a terminology issue. I have always assumed that if you were going to the trouble of having two amps, then you were going to have the crossover prior to the amps and do away with the crossover in the speaker. Doesn't make much sense to have two amps otherwise.

 

[TrevC]

Bi-Wiring - is it worth it?

No.

+1!

Actually to me it means "buy more wire". If you listen long enough (till infinity) you will here the difference ;-)

Buywire, buyamp. That's what it's all about. Buyamp (passive variety, with the speaker crossovers in place) is wiring two 100 watt per channel amplifiers to sound as if there's only one. If you use a 100 watt for LF and a 20 watt for the HF your maximum useable power is then only 20 watts per channel.

 

[nopiano]

If you use a 100 watt for LF and a 20 watt for the HF your maximum power is then only 20 watts per channel.

Isn't that a bit misleading, Trev, because your HF component is unlikely to be more than a watt or two with real music (can't speak for electropop) even if the LF requires tens of watts. That would be the case with one regular stereo amp and standard wiring. The 'maximum' is not really the point, is it?

 

[TrevC]

Biwiring actually decreases overall impedeance.

Nope. Only changing the speaker leads to lower resistance or impedance ones can do that. Of course, on a biwired system, putting the links back on the speaakers will halve the series impedance of the wire thus reducing it overall.

 

[sublime]

Bi-wiring my Acoustic Energy AE 120s made a big improvement. Bigger sound with more presence - extremely obvious to the listener. Would this be down to more available current to the drivers? I don't know much about these things but have read that the AE120's needed current to really come alive

 

[TrevC]

If you use a 100 watt for LF and a 20 watt for the HF your maximum power is then only 20 watts per channel.

Isn't that a bit misleading, Trev, because your HF component is unlikely to be more than a watt or two with real music (can't speak for electropop) even if the LF requires tens of watts. That would be the case with one regular stereo amp and standard wiring. The 'maximum' is not really the point, is it?

If they are gain matched both amplifiers are amplifying the entire signal to the same level, so the 20W one will clip on the bass much earlier that the 100 W one. The square wave products from the clipping distortion from the bass will therefore be fed into the HF section of your speaker if you attempt to go above 20W.