Is bi-wiring really going to make any difference?

[Thaiman]

[quote user="Anton90125"]That is pure conjecture. Unless of course you have proof of that you would like to share with us.[/quote]

No, I can't prove it!!!! so here you are. I know it's a shockingly mad claim but that is what I think of it.

[quote user="Anton90125"]May I suggest that you look at the site I suggested earlier: http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/biwiring.htm . I don't know how technical your are but take a look at : http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/page7.htm [/quote]

The same link that everyone keep pointing to me! Keep on reading about them my friend as for myself I done ABX methodology test that's why I can fully said I can't hear any different....at all.

[quote user="Anton90125"]That does not mean there is no sound at that rarefied level (ask bats and dogs!).[/quote]

I will, as soon as I see them. Get them both in my listening room and spin them some Jazz!

 

[Anonymous]

I really don't like how the hifi industry has hyped up bi-wiring. I used to own Mission 780SE speakers and they sounded better single wired (with wire jumpers) than bi-wired. The music sounded more "together" and musical. Thankfully my current speakers can only be single wired. I recommend to everyone to save their money and single wire. Bi-wiring is all hype imo.

Look at it this way, AVI Neutron IV speakers can only be single wired, and they and their predecessors have been getting 5 stars in WHF for about a decade now. So bi-wiring probably isn't as important as some would like you to think.

 

[Thaiman]

[quote user="Anton90125"]Most of the noise on the internet against it consist of people stating opinion as fact based on scientific dogma or limited technical knowledge. People disscussing DBTs that were supposedly carried out by other people with no reference to who actually did the test,how they did the tests,what stats they used (if any) to test the statistical significance of the alleged results.[/quote]

I wasn't going to responsed to this statement but just to let you know that I am not limited in technical knowledge! I am a fully qualify in electronic engineering. My best friend used to be an engineer for Quad and my other friend is an onwer of cable manufacture (I don't think he would want me to state his company's name on this debate though)

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="mr_wazoo"]I used to own Mission 780SE speakers and they sounded better single wired (with wire jumpers) than bi-wired. The music sounded more "together" and musical.[/quote]

I am glad you can tell the difference! Even though you don't like it.

[quote user="mr_wazoo"]Look at it this way, AVI Neutron IV speakers can only be single wired, and they and their predecessors have been getting 5 stars in WHF for about a decade now.[/quote]

This proves nothing

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Thaiman"]I wasn't going to responsed to this statement but just to let you know that I am not limited in technical knowledge! [/quote]

I am not suggesting that you are, but alot of anti biwire people are.

[quote user="Thaiman"]I am a fully qualify in electronic engineering[/quote]

I would be interested in professional (electronic engineering) analysis of that second site I (and others ) have shown you.
You and your mates must be able to put together a technical argument as to why technically biwiring does not work??

I do however agree with you that if you are happy with the type of set up you have -single wire (in your case) then nuff said.
But also allow others the chance of testing biwiring to make up there own mind.

As for me with my own testing- I can hear a difference which is not in my mind.(I could tell when the cables were swaped around by my friend). What I WILL not except is someone telling me that I imagined it. I am not directing this against you personally-but very generally . Also if a person (general) who can not hear something tells someone who can that its all in his mind.-we have a case of deffective hearing against a malleable mind. And no ones hearing is perfect!

 

[Thaiman]

[quote user="Anton90125"]You and your mates must be able to put together a technical argument as to why technically biwiring does not work??[/quote]

One of them Biwiring (shotgun) his speakers and another one would prefer people buying double lenghts of cables anyway so they can't help me but as you said that studied physics to degree level then would you agree that "What it all boils down to is this; wire is wire is wire", and provided the electrical characteristics of wires are the same, they will sound the same......the electrons in cheaper cable are not different from those in expensive wire.

[quote user="Anton90125"]I do however agree with you that if you are happy with the type of set up you have -single wire (in your case) then nuff said[/quote]
and if you are happy with your BIWIRE sound then I am happy for you.

[quote user="Anton90125"]I can hear a difference which is not in my mind.(I could tell when the cables were swaped around by my friend). [/quote]

I am now accepted that you can hear the different as long as you can accept that "I can not!" and yes, this is going no where so hand shake offer from me.

 

[Anonymous]

I think it does. You don't need to buy speaker with two sets of terminals on them for good sound. The AVI Neutron series has consistently got good reviews in all hifi magazines. If biwiring was such an amazing "upgrade" then why are the Neutrons still at the top of the pile?

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Thaiman"]"What it all boils down to is this; wire is wire is wire", and provided the electrical characteristics of wires are the same, they will sound the same......the electrons in cheaper cable are not different from those in expensive wire.[/quote]

Wire is wire is wire-Mmmm. You are not including the role of the cross over and the drivers. You are ignoring the effect of moving the point where the high pass and low pass filters are joined from the speaker end to that of the amplifier end. The cables become part of the individual driver circuits spurs. The back EMF generated by the woofer (for instance) is seen by the amplifer before the tweeter such that it can dampen it effects before interfering with the tweeter performance. The same would be true for the tweeter back emf (but on a much smaller scale). Since the identical electron don't carry the signal (the EM field generated by the electrons actually carry it ), having 2 seperate cables carrying EM fields are less likely to interfer then when compared to a single cable. There are other more technical explainations that I have seen which are a bit beyond me so I won't attemp to explain it here.

[quote user="Thaiman"]I am now accepted that you can hear the different as long as you can accept that "I can not!" and yes, this is going no where so hand shake offer from me.[/quote]

Yes I will accept your hand shake! We are all on the same side with regard to the love (kick) of getting good fidelity.
You like Jazz. Have you heard the SACD version of DAVE BRUBECK :Take Five (Columbia/Lrgacy CS65122). This is the best recording I have- quite amazing

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="mr_wazoo"]I think it does. You don't need to buy speaker with two sets of terminals on them for good sound. The AVI Neutron series has consistently got good reviews in all hifi magazines. If biwiring was such an amazing "upgrade" then why are the Neutrons still at the top of the pile?[/quote]

All this proves is the designers of the AVI Neutron choose not to bi wire them. Thats all. Other hign end designers do- again so what??

 

[Thaiman]

[quote user="Anton90125"]There are other more technical explainations that I have seen which are a bit beyond me so I won't attemp to explain it here. [/quote]

Good!
May be my cross over was design properly in the first place, that why I couldn't here the different he he he

[quote user="Anton90125"]You like Jazz. Have you heard the SACD version of DAVE BRUBECK [/quote]

I like most music and Thank you for recommendation, I will certainly try some of that.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Anton90125"][quote user="mr_wazoo"]I think it does. You don't need to buy speaker with two sets of terminals on them for good sound. The AVI Neutron series has consistently got good reviews in all hifi magazines. If biwiring was such an amazing "upgrade" then why are the Neutrons still at the top of the pile?[/quote]

All this proves is the designers of the AVI Neutron choose not to bi wire them. Thats all. Other hign end designers do- again so what??[/quote]

I think the point is if it was really so important AVI would do it too. It isn't and so they don't. Might be useful to have 2 sets of terminals on each speaker for bi-amping but imo bi-wiring is unnecessary and I wish more speaker manufacturers especially in the budget sector would just use single wire crossovers.

 

[Anton90125]

I have to diagree with your logic as you don't know the motive/reasoning behind AVI choices. Also one speakers manufacture (no matter how good they are) design parameters does not set the standard as to what is correct. You wil always find another manufacture (of products of a similar quality) which have different design parameters.

I think we will have to agree to disagree because I will not convince you and you will not convience me.
But let others decide for themselves by testing.

 

[Anonymous]

OK I'm gonna weigh in here. In both instances I've biwired/biamped I've been able to hear an improvement though at the end od the day HiFi as with a lot of things, subjective - the improvements I've enjoyed (better stereo image, crisper top end and firmer, lower bass) may not be for everyone - its depends what your ear prefers.
Also, I've never had any truly 'high end' kit, more middle of the road stuff though I'd hugely disagree with biwiring being a marketing stunt. Manufacturers like Monitor Audio dont need 'marketing stunts' to move their kit and they heavily recommend biwiring their speakers.
I had a pair of Mission 780's (no, the original ones) a long way back and going biwire improved them no end but so did the better cables.
What I would say to anyone on this question is to get decent speaker cables first, see if you like, then if you want more, try the biwire - its not permanent and you can always pull the plug, so to speak, and go back to a single run.
Technically, biwiring and biamping should both improve things though I can easily accept the argument Thaiman makes in that with seriously high end kit, perhaps not so much or even at all as at that price, the components used - crossovers, internal cabling etc would be a world apart from the Monitor Audio's and Mission's of the world.
Horses for courses chaps.

 

[Thaiman]

After all this debates I still say "single run with good quality jumpers will sound better than biwire" but I don't think anyone would bother finding this out!

As for Mr.Wazoo siad about AVI speakers I can only say from my experienced with Dynaudio. The Dyn use first-order crossovers. There is one capacitor wired in series with the tweeter and one inductor wired in series with the mid/woofer. The "links" you would find on a bi-wirable speaker are simply replaced with hard wiring inside the box.

 

[Anonymous]

Biwiring appears to be one of the many mysteries of the universe to most people. It works. Live with it.

 

[Anonymous]

what if u sigle run but then run a set of 2 inches cables from post to post is that still biwiring ?all terminals would be connected .

 

[Anonymous]

nope, biwiring is taking the separation back to the amplifier, bi amping is taking the separation back to the source.

 

[Anonymous]

I think that the difference which we notice from Bi-wiring must be something to do with the cross-over unit. The cross over unit is going to have capacitors which ground certain frequencies. The low frequencies for the tweeter posts and the high frequencies for the woofer posts. The way I see it, is that if the posts are connected together (i.e. not bi-wired) then the capacitors which ground the low frequencies for the tweeter, will also have some effect on the other post by grounding some of the frequencies there too and vice versa. This effect which the filters have are more obviously detrimental when the posts are connected together at the speaker terminals.

So, by using bi-wiring, you are putting a longer length of cable between the two terminals, plus you are feeding them with clean signals directly out of the amplifier, so really the low pass and high pass filters have less effect on their "opposite" posts.

I am not very good at explaining things, but in summary, the crossover section which filters the high frequencies out for the woofer, will have less effect filtering out those high frequencies on the tweeter terminals if there is more wire between them and also if a clean signal is sent to each from the amplifier.

Gasp

 

[Thaiman]

[quote user="GeekyGraham"]I am not very good at explaining things[/quote]
Me too! but I know what are you saying.
If you ever visit lovely North Norfolk let me know because I am so confident, enough to invite you to biwire my speakers. so you will know that only the bats and the cats can hear any different!

 

[Anonymous]

Graham is RIGHT! No argument about it. it is the supply of the same signal to two different, and separate filters, not crossover, wheras when single wired, the crossover shares the 1 signal to both drivers.

 

[Thaiman]

[quote user="richardjlarby"]Graham is RIGHT! No argument about it.[/quote]

So how many types of crossover out there then?