AVI DM5

[steve_1979]

My point remains that the output in watts of the built-in amp is not relevant; the speaker output is. But how many (non-active) speakers state a maximum output in dB as opposed to a maximum power handling in watts? Very few.

I agree. IMO stating the number of watts in an active speaker is largely pointless. They should just state how low they go.

Wether that volume is achieved by efficiency or brute force makes no difference to the end user.

Steve, with respect, stating the power output of the built in amplifiers ( in watts ) is entirely necessary. Buyers need to make an informed choice on whether they are suitable for a particular room. AVI's amplifiers are not immune to clipping.

All the end user really needs to know is how loud they go before they start clipping.

100dB using a 100 watt amplifier is juat as loud as 100dB using a 1000 watt amplifier.

 

[shadders]

My point remains that the output in watts of the built-in amp is not relevant; the speaker output is. But how many (non-active) speakers state a maximum output in dB as opposed to a maximum power handling in watts? Very few.

I agree. IMO stating the number of watts in an active speaker is largely pointless. They should just state how low they go.

Wether that volume is achieved by efficiency or brute force makes no difference to the end user.

Steve, with respect, stating the power output of the built in amplifiers ( in watts ) is entirely necessary. Buyers need to make an informed choice on whether they are suitable for a particular room. AVI's amplifiers are not immune to clipping.

All the end user really needs to know is how loud they go before they start clipping.

100dB using a 100 watt amplifier is juat as loud as 100dB using a 1000 watt amplifier.

Hi,

Ok, so if all that is required is how loud they go, then why don't the manufacturers just state the maximum SPL at a specific THD for the speaker?

The manufacturers state the number so as to impress the buyer that they are not being sold a dud.

If the rating of the amplifier is actually 50watts, this seems rather low when you compare to available amps. So the manufacturers quote an arbitrary figure which bears absolutely no resemblance to its true rated power. The figure they do quote is a nice large number, to impress the customer.

Therefore, if the amplifier power is of no relevance, why is it being used to support their AVI owners arguments, when in addition, even they don't know what it means?

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[thewinelake.]

I think you've answered it yourself! They want to come up with a figure that is comparable, and so exploit the vagueness of power rating to give potential buyers an idea of how loud they go. Can't say I approve, but it's pretty irrelevant and a waste of time to debate imho.

 

[spiny norman]

I think you've answered it yourself! They want to come up with a figure that is comparable, and so exploit the vagueness of power rating to give potential buyers an idea of how loud they go. Can't say I approve, but it's pretty irrelevant and a waste of time to debate imho.

Thatnk goodness for that: thought for a moment it might be misleading advertising of the kind that has some people running to the ASA, as would be the case if this were a cable company, say. But at least the buyers of this product aren't being misled by the marketing of a hi-fi company, as they have been for decades, etc., etc..

 

[nopiano]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match. With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion. Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates. We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones. Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep. Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

Nobody is arguing about ohms, whether 4, 6 or 8. I'm the only one who mentioned ohms and it was in context to an industry standard convo with shadders. I was saying in the active market there's no real need for an ohm rating. Nothing more. Based your comment about ohms, i suspect you're skim reading. It just complicates things. Read back and you will see you are misinterpreting the point.

See posts 32 and 40, above, for example. And doubtless the other similar ones of recent days. We agree the impedance is a red herring. I'm saying so is the 'output' in watts.

Hi,

The impedance is not a red herring. The power statement for an amplifier is a useless statement unless it is referred to a load impedance. If you want to refer this to a speaker output, such as dBW SPL statement, then (I think) you will need to take into account the driver losses to determine how much power is actually transferred from electrical energy to sound/mechanicql energy.

Just stating that the amplifier is 250W is meaningless unless you know the load.

Regards,

Shadders.

We can agree that it is meaningless - regardless!

The valid points you have been trying to make are understood by most.

Thank you Andrew!

 

[chebby]

AVI's measurements are 325 times better than those from any other manufacturer.

The company once quoted 108 dB continuous with a 6 - 10 dB threshold. They also quoted 100 dB (with no distortion) from 10 metres distance during a show at the NEC.

 

[hg]

Ok, so if all that is required is how loud they go, then why don't the manufacturers just state the maximum SPL at a specific THD for the speaker?

Because it would put potential buyers off by getting them to think about the real limits of small speakers. Nonetheless it is in the interests of the companies that actually do make the speakers with high technical performance to guide the consumer into making decisions around techncical performance. Neumann for example do produce a reasonably full specification for their speakers including SPL vs frequency at various levels of distorton such as 1%, 3% and 10% (click measurements on RHS). If a company like AVI produced such a plot it may well get their potential customers looking at that 100dB output in the low frequency high sound energy region, knocking off perhaps 15-20 dB for peaks, 10dB for listening at 3-4m away and concluding a maximum clean average SPL of around 70dB is not enough.

The manufacturers state the number so as to impress the buyer that they are not being sold a dud.

Agreed, they state large power values because it makes a positive impression and so helps sell the speakers. The SB Acoustics driver on which the AVI DM10 midwoofer driver is based has a power rating of 60W which might be less, the same or more after the AVI modifications but clearly an amplifier which can deliver signficantly more power continuously is not particularly wise. Music is usually fairly peaky, drivers can normally handle short power peaks above their long term RMS limit without thermal failure and amplifiers/power supplies can be designed to deliver short peaks. However, at the low frequency end of their operating range drivers are often limited not by thermal power handling but by reaching the linear limits of their suspension travel. This rather limits the usefullness of amplifiers being able to deliver bursts of high power and the driver motor being able to handle them in the frequceny range where it is perhaps most needed.

 

[thewinelake.]

An interesting point re. advertising, although I don't believe AVI advertise (at least not with specs).

However, I wonder if one could take up misleading specs on an ecommerce website with Trading Standards?

 

[spiny norman]

An interesting point re. advertising, although I don't believe AVI advertise (at least not with specs).

However, I wonder if one could take up misleading specs on an ecommerce website with Trading Standards?

Apparently misleading claims on a company's website have been taken up with, and dealt with by, the ASA in the past.

 

[bluedroog]

Apparently the two current dealers have been good friends of Ash for many years and only sell AVI speakers at much lower margins than would normally be usual.

Dealers really don't work like that: they have overheads to meet. Perhaps it's just that they have decent margins, which AVI is trousering on the speakers it sells direct, and they really should be much cheaper...

I agree. It is hard enough for Hi-Fi dealers to survive as it is these days, by stocking a brand which is said to be such good value and selling it at a much lower margin than other gear is going to impact their business.

 

[shadders]

Ok, so if all that is required is how loud they go, then why don't the manufacturers just state the maximum SPL at a specific THD for the speaker?

Because it would put potential buyers off by getting them to think about the real limits of small speakers. Nonetheless it is in the interests of the companies that actually do make the speakers with high technical performance to guide the consumer into making decisions around techncical performance. Neumann for example do produce a reasonably full specification for their speakers including SPL vs frequency at various levels of distorton such as 1%, 3% and 10% (click measurements on RHS). If a company like AVI produced such a plot it may well get their potential customers looking at that 100dB output in the low frequency high sound energy region, knocking off perhaps 15-20 dB for peaks, 10dB for listening at 3-4m away and concluding a maximum clean average SPL of around 70dB is not enough.

The manufacturers state the number so as to impress the buyer that they are not being sold a dud.

Agreed, they state large power values because it makes a positive impression and so helps sell the speakers. The SB Acoustics driver on which the AVI DM10 midwoofer driver is based has a power rating of 60W which might be less, the same or more after the AVI modifications but clearly an amplifier which can deliver signficantly more power continuously is not particularly wise. Music is usually fairly peaky, drivers can normally handle short power peaks above their long term RMS limit without thermal failure and amplifiers/power supplies can be designed to deliver short peaks. However, at the low frequency end of their operating range drivers are often limited not by thermal power handling but by reaching the linear limits of their suspension travel. This rather limits the usefullness of amplifiers being able to deliver bursts of high power and the driver motor being able to handle them in the frequceny range where it is perhaps most needed.

Hi Hg,

Thanks, I do need to study speaker drivers as they are completely new to me. I understand the basics of their operation, but not the detailed interactions of the speakers sound reproduction in an enclosure and room acoustic effects.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[spiny norman]

I agree. It is hard enough for Hi-Fi dealers to survive as it is these days, by stocking a brand which is said to be such good value and selling it at a much lower margin than other gear is going to impact their business.

Dealers, however good friends they may be, ain't charities. Which is why I find the pricing model so strange: this far from the only company to sell direct as well as though dealers, in order to make some more of the dealer margin for itself, but to claim the product would cost three times as much (or whatever) were it to be sold through dealers is evidentially misleading, as it doesn't.

 

[techboy]

Just so we are clear, Ashley makes it very clear that 325 watts isn't continuous. He is equally clear that continuous is irrelevant because most music is peaky anyway.

If you read what he writes, it is clear that 325 watts is the peak. NOT RMS.

At least his recent replies on this issue make it very clear that only the ADM 40 can deliver 250 watts continuously. Not the DM 10s.

 

[Alberich]

I retract my earlier comments about the over zealous AVI critics being a curious bunch.
I'm starting to empathise with their fustration.
( not aimed at you directly techboy )

 

[techboy]

Although I own AVI speakers, I'm not siding with anybody. I'm just reporting facts. 🙂

Ashley does say 325 watts. But he has clarified that it is peak and NOT continuous.

 

[tonky]

I think your comments are valid and well made. I have some sympathy with posters on both sides of the discussion. (but some posters can be - too blunt ?)

Ashley has made reasonable attempts to explain himself but some of his longer answers have not been especially clear (somewhat disjointed at times) when presenting the facts of his case and this hasn't helped..

As always I reserve judgement - more important than facts are how the speakers sound in the home environment. I'd certainly like to hear a pair. A lot of people like them - I don't dispute that - I would probably like them too - certainly not criticizing them. I am not too bothered about any so called power ratings. - It's all about the music.

cheers tonky

 

[luckylion100]

specs and accurate power rating figures.

I note that What Hi-fi reviewed the (older) AVI AMD 9.1 back in May 2010. What Hi-Fi clearly quotes the given power ratings for this model at 75 W for tweeters and 250 W for bass drivers without any suggestion of doubting these figures....

It seems that What Hi-fi's reviews are purely subjective and not based on any technical investigation despite having the opportunity to query such 'obviously and outrageous' claims when they were in possession of the product.

So not only are AVI deliberately misleading owners and potential customers but What Hi-fi is letting its readership down with haphazard, fundamentally flawed and lazy reviews.

In that review I sensed the reviewer liked the product but ultimately had his hands tied due to editorial demands and so remained somewhat subdued due to the need for continued and unrivalled advertising income from legacy brands. Clearly the very nature of the product challenges this.

My love of my DM10's is 100% subjective. I couldn't give a hoot about power ratings, they sound bloody brilliant! I wasn't mislead or deceived into buying them.

So perhaps the What Hi-fi review process is spot on, after all it's how normal people listen and ultimately relate to their systems!

 

[avole]

You know the sales and marketing manager is paltering with the truth but don't care?

I'm surprised the designer himself doesn't have something to say on the topic. It must make embarrassing reading for him.

 

[luckylion100]

the haters, are self motivated, be it for whatever reason. You are not providing a public service.

I would imagine that if the lies of AVI were so great and misleading Hi-fi Plus, Gramophone and way back What Hi-fi would have openly challenged this but in the reviews I've read it's not even been touched on.

At the end of the day people don't listen to ratings or specs. You don't have to listen to my system, I do... move on, try focusing on some other injustice, it's a pair of bloody speakers!

If a great injustice has been done then the publications mentioned above have failed. I think perhaps though they operate in real world terms more than the haters on here.

I suppose that's my point, in case I wasn't clear.

 

[avole]

I recognise propaganda for what it is. If you want to see how the knowledgeable react, look at the other forums. No wonder the sales manager and his cohorts have been banned from them all.

Funnily enough, that doesn't seem to have happened to other manufacturers/assemblers, so what can the difference be ?

 

[shadders]

the haters, are self motivated, be it for whatever reason. You are not providing a public service.

I would imagine that if the lies of AVI were so great and misleading Hi-fi Plus, Gramophone and way back What Hi-fi would have openly challenged this but in the reviews I've read it's not even been touched on.

At the end of the day people don't listen to ratings or specs. You don't have to listen to my system, I do... move on, try focusing on some other injustice, it's a pair of bloody speakers!

If a great injustice has been done then the publications mentioned above have failed. I think perhaps though they operate in real world terms more than the haters on here.

I suppose that's my point, in case I wasn't clear.

Hi,

People questioning published facts by AVI does not make them haters. The AVI owners (yourself excluded) have made statements regarding passive systems as broken, or those further up in this thread. They cannot prove their statements, so are just repeating what they are told by, I can only assume, other AVI owners, or AVI staff.

If AVI have misrepresented the facts (such as the amplifier power), then what else have they misrepresented?

It is not the function of the Hifi publications to correct injustices.

The Hifi press will review as seen, and if they happen to include measurements, will report these accurately. I have seen reports where they state the amplifier very much exceeds the stated specification, and others where they state that they only just meet the published specification.

So, if it is the AVI owners who denigrate passive speakers, use AVI published data/facts (which are in error, or are dubious) to claim that the AVI speakers are superior to passive speakers, then I contend that it is not the "haters" of AVI that are the problem, but the AVI owners who are in fact the "haters" of passive systems.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Morgunner]

...the specs Event give for their Opals are roughly twice what AVI states for DM10s. Can they be correct? Interestingly they also have steep 8th order XOs.

http://www.eventelectronics.com/opal

 

[shadders]

...the specs Event give for their Opals are roughly twice what AVI states for DM10s. Can they be correct? Interestingly they also have steep 8th order XOs.

http://www.eventelectronics.com/opal

Hi,

We don't have Event owners on this forum claiming passive systems are broken, handicapped, or whose passive filters are power sapping.

If people quote figures that do not meet the industry standard for an amplifier power, or qualify the figures that they are quoting with load, waveform, duration, THD etc., then you must expect them to be challenged when they use those figures in their arguments.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Morgunner]

...the specs Event give for their Opals are roughly twice what AVI states for DM10s. Can they be correct? Interestingly they also have steep 8th order XOs.

http://www.eventelectronics.com/opal

Hi,

We don't have Event owners on this forum claiming passive systems are broken, handicapped, or whose passive filters are power sapping.

If people quote figures that do not meet the industry standard for an amplifier power, or qualify the figures that they are quoting with load, waveform, duration, THD etc., then you must expect them to be challenged when they use those figures in their arguments.

Yes, but as AVI's power claims have been dismissed as impossible by forum members I wonder if those members would find Opal's claims just as rich as AVI's? And if not, wouldn't Opal's specs then support AVI's claims?

 

[Andrewjvt]

the haters, are self motivated, be it for whatever reason. You are not providing a public service.

I would imagine that if the lies of AVI were so great and misleading Hi-fi Plus, Gramophone and way back What Hi-fi would have openly challenged this but in the reviews I've read it's not even been touched on.

At the end of the day people don't listen to ratings or specs. You don't have to listen to my system, I do... move on,  try focusing on some other injustice, it's a pair of bloody speakers! 

If a great injustice has been done then the publications mentioned above have failed. I think perhaps though they operate in real world terms more than the haters on here.

I suppose that's my point, in case I wasn't clear.

 

Hi,

People questioning published facts by AVI does not make them haters. The AVI owners (yourself excluded) have made statements regarding passive systems as broken, or those further up in this thread. They cannot prove their statements, so are just repeating what they are told by, I can only assume, other AVI owners, or AVI staff.

If AVI have misrepresented the facts (such as the amplifier power), then what else have they misrepresented?

It is not the function of the Hifi publications to correct injustices.

The Hifi press will review as seen, and if they happen to include measurements, will report these accurately. I have seen reports where they state the amplifier very much exceeds the stated specification, and others where they state that they only just meet the published specification.

So, if it is the AVI owners who denigrate passive speakers, use AVI published data/facts (which are in error, or are dubious) to claim that the AVI speakers are superior to passive speakers, then I contend that it is not the "haters" of AVI that are the problem, but the AVI owners who are in fact the "haters" of passive systems.

Regards,

Shadders.

SCM40A

Overview

New ATC designed and built dual suspension 25mm soft dome HF unit with precision alloy wave guide.ATC Soft Dome mid-range driver.ATC 164mm short coil bass driver.All drive units incorporate massive optimised motor assemblies.On-board grounded source 242 watt Class A/B Tri-amplifier.Active crossover filters and overload protection.

Drivers: HF ATC 25mm dual suspension Tweeter, Mid 75mm ATC Soft Dome, LF ATC 164mm SC
Matched Response: ±0.5dB
Frequency Response (-6dB): 48Hz-22kHz
Dispersion: ±80° Coherent Horizontal, ±10° Coherent Vertical
Max SPL: 112dB
Crossover Frequencies: 380Hz & 3.5kHz
Connectors: Male XLR
Input sensitivity : 1V
Filters : 4th Order critically damped with phase compensation.
Overload Protection : Active FET momentary gain reduction.
Fault Protection : DC fault protection and thermal trip. Fault indication on rear panel mounted LED.
Amplifier Output: 150W LF, 60W MF, 32W HF
Cabinet Dimensions (HxWxD): 980 x 370 x 344mm (inc. foot plinth & amp, spikes add 25mm to height, grill adds 34mm to depth)
Weight: 36kg

Heres the specs for.the atc scm40 active
Whats the difference in the way they state the power?