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AVI DM5

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davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
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0
Escapism said:
lindsayt said:
davedotco said:
Shadders is really only arguing one point and one point only. He mentions other unsubstantiated AVI claims in passing but this is really about the power.

Ie: That the 250 + 75watt rating is not correct as the system does not have the power supply and heatsinking to sustain continuous power at this level.

He is 100% correct on this. It is unarguable, he has won the argument right there. All this guff about 'industry standard' measurements is just nonsense, there is no standard as anyone with a passing knowledge of amplifier specs will know.

The fact that it is irrelevant to the quality and performance of the speaker system does not matter in this instance.

However it is a realistic figure in that it relates, quite closely I think, to the subjective performance of the speakers. For a compact design the power and lack of dynamic compression is very impressive, it sounds like a very powerful system so from a descriptive point of view, I think the ratings are 'realistic'.

On a separate but related point, it also explains why the ADMs would be of very limited use in a studio situation. They simply would not go loud enough for long enough, simple as that. There are some ADMs and DM5s used professionally, but the applications are specific and they are usually the personal speakers of the engineer in question, a very different proposition from regular 'studio for hire' type of recording work.
davedotco, I wasn't aware that you'd actually heard AVI DM10's.

Have you actually heard them? Have you actually heard them in a comprative A/B demo?

Or were your comments on the subjective performance of the speakers based on hearsay?
not to worry, most others commenting haven't either.
I am very familiar with ADM9T, a friend has a set of these, they are late models bought a few months before the introduction of the 9RS. I have heard these many times and even had them in my home on a couple of occasions.

My subjective evaluation is based on this, I generally use the term 'ADMs' when commenting on these speakers, not ADM9 or ADM10, simply to give a more general viewpoint of the ADM range.

I should have been more specific.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
16
2
0
davedotco said:
Escapism said:
lindsayt said:
davedotco said:
Shadders is really only arguing one point and one point only. He mentions other unsubstantiated AVI claims in passing but this is really about the power.

Ie: That the 250 + 75watt rating is not correct as the system does not have the power supply and heatsinking to sustain continuous power at this level.

He is 100% correct on this. It is unarguable, he has won the argument right there. All this guff about 'industry standard' measurements is just nonsense, there is no standard as anyone with a passing knowledge of amplifier specs will know.

The fact that it is irrelevant to the quality and performance of the speaker system does not matter in this instance.

However it is a realistic figure in that it relates, quite closely I think, to the subjective performance of the speakers. For a compact design the power and lack of dynamic compression is very impressive, it sounds like a very powerful system so from a descriptive point of view, I think the ratings are 'realistic'.

On a separate but related point, it also explains why the ADMs would be of very limited use in a studio situation. They simply would not go loud enough for long enough, simple as that. There are some ADMs and DM5s used professionally, but the applications are specific and they are usually the personal speakers of the engineer in question, a very different proposition from regular 'studio for hire' type of recording work.
davedotco, I wasn't aware that you'd actually heard AVI DM10's.

Have you actually heard them? Have you actually heard them in a comprative A/B demo?

Or were your comments on the subjective performance of the speakers based on hearsay?
not to worry, most others commenting haven't either.
I am very familiar with ADM9T, a friend has a set of these, they are late models bought a few months before the introduction of the 9RS. I have heard these many times and even had them in my home on a couple of occasions.

My subjective evaluation is based on this, I generally use the term 'ADMs' when commenting on these speakers, not ADM9 or ADM10, simply to give a more general viewpoint of the ADM range.

I should have been more specific.
I've heard the same model AVI speakers that you have and I'd rate them as a somewhat compressed, with an overly lean bass.

Someone whose judgement I trust on hi-fi has also heard the same model and he described them as "flat, unmusical and boring."

Is your praise of the ADM9T's akin to someone praising a dancing bear? Where the praise isn't because the bear can dance well, but because the bear can dance at all.
 

ID.

New member
Feb 22, 2010
207
0
0
lindsayt said:
davedotco said:
Escapism said:
lindsayt said:
davedotco said:
Shadders is really only arguing one point and one point only. He mentions other unsubstantiated AVI claims in passing but this is really about the power.

Ie: That the 250 + 75watt rating is not correct as the system does not have the power supply and heatsinking to sustain continuous power at this level.

He is 100% correct on this. It is unarguable, he has won the argument right there. All this guff about 'industry standard' measurements is just nonsense, there is no standard as anyone with a passing knowledge of amplifier specs will know.

The fact that it is irrelevant to the quality and performance of the speaker system does not matter in this instance.

However it is a realistic figure in that it relates, quite closely I think, to the subjective performance of the speakers. For a compact design the power and lack of dynamic compression is very impressive, it sounds like a very powerful system so from a descriptive point of view, I think the ratings are 'realistic'.

On a separate but related point, it also explains why the ADMs would be of very limited use in a studio situation. They simply would not go loud enough for long enough, simple as that. There are some ADMs and DM5s used professionally, but the applications are specific and they are usually the personal speakers of the engineer in question, a very different proposition from regular 'studio for hire' type of recording work.
davedotco, I wasn't aware that you'd actually heard AVI DM10's.

Have you actually heard them? Have you actually heard them in a comprative A/B demo?

Or were your comments on the subjective performance of the speakers based on hearsay?
not to worry, most others commenting haven't either.
I am very familiar with ADM9T, a friend has a set of these, they are late models bought a few months before the introduction of the 9RS. I have heard these many times and even had them in my home on a couple of occasions.

My subjective evaluation is based on this, I generally use the term 'ADMs' when commenting on these speakers, not ADM9 or ADM10, simply to give a more general viewpoint of the ADM range.

I should have been more specific.
I've heard the same model AVI speakers that you have and I'd rate them as a somewhat compressed, with an overly lean bass.

Someone whose judgement I trust on hi-fi has also heard the same model and he described them as "flat, unmusical and boring."

Is your praise of the ADM9T's akin to someone praising a dancing bear? Where the praise isn't because the bear can dance well, but because the bear can dance at all.
is that comparing like with like (similar sized drivers and cabinets, prices) or is that comparing to your million yen 40kg club?

My personal view is that throwing 2nd hand into the equation isn't really a fair comparison, especially once the kit gets so old that one needs to have specialized knowledge/spend significant time on research or be able to carry out certain repairs oneself, because while it's "free" that's only because there isn't a a metric put on the time and effort. If I apply my hourly billable rate, the 2nd hand kit becomes far more expensive. In our relatively time poor and money rich modern society one shouldn't forget the premium people put on convenience. Now if you enjoy those aspects of finding 2nd hand kit, well then that's as much a part of the hobby, but most people don't.
 

Escapism

New member
Nov 19, 2009
0
0
0
My word, you are quite a character aren't you.

'Akin to someone praising a dancing bear'?

and I love this - "Someone whose judgement I trust on hi-fi has also heard the same model and he described them as "flat, unmusical and boring.

Edited by mods. Please keep it civil.
 

bigboss

Moderator
shadders said:
bigboss said:
shadders said:
bigboss said:
If I was in the market for some speakers, and if AVI stated, for example, 50w into 8 ohms, I would feel cheated, because there's no 8 ohms in it! What would you suggest for this shadders? You cannot compare passives with actives this way at all. If people compare performance between actives and passives this way, they need education as to how to compare specs, not follow their wrong path to satisfy what they're looking for.
Hi,

Quoting against 8 ohms or the actual impedance is the industry standard. That is how you can compare actives with other actives, and see if you are obtaining value for money. I never stated compare passive to actives.

Regards,

Shadders.
Is it the industry standard? Any links to support that?
Hi,

Yes - after checking the wiki - the following IEC standard specifies the characteristics of the amplifier that should be specified and how they should be specified.

https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/1220

IEC 60268-3:2013.

The above standard relates specifically to power amplifiers, and has been updated for Class D amplifiers aswell. If you search for it - the abstract which you can download, has the contents page where you can see all specifications that should be provided.

Regards,

Shadders.
Thanks, any link where it's available as a free download? Will be useful to check the actual standards and conditions where it should be applied. Why are industry standards so difficult to find online, and why are they charging for it?
 

spiny norman

New member
Jan 14, 2009
293
0
0
lindsayt said:
Is your praise of the ADM9T's akin to someone praising a dancing bear? Where the praise isn't because the bear can dance well, but because the bear can dance at all.
Isn't that a dog walking on its hind legs?
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
16
2
0
ID. said:
is that comparing like with like (similar sized drivers and cabinets, prices) or is that comparing to your million yen 40kg club?

My personal view is that throwing 2nd hand into the equation isn't really a fair comparison, especially once the kit gets so old that one needs to have specialized knowledge/spend significant time on research or be able to carry out certain repairs oneself, because while it's "free" that's only because there isn't a a metric put on the time and effort. If I apply my hourly billable rate, the 2nd hand kit becomes far more expensive. In our relatively time poor and money rich modern society one shouldn't forget the premium people put on convenience. Now if you enjoy those aspects of finding 2nd hand kit, well then that's as much a part of the hobby, but most people don't.
That was comparing them against amp and speaker combinations that anyone could have bought for less money than what his friend paid for his 9T's.

This would include some speakers that required some DIY and some speakers that required absolutely no work at all. The specialised knowledge that you allude to is available to anyone with a few clicks on Google and the time to watch a 5 minute youtube video.

If I were to put a pretty high hourly rate of £30 per hour on the time to learn how to do all the repairs I've had to do on my EV Sentry's (that I knew needed repairing before I bought them) as well as the time needed to actually do the repairs, the total cost, including purchase price would still be well below the cost davedotco's friend paid for his 9T's.

I have never repaired an amplifier in my life.

If you have a problem with me comparing amp and speaker combinations on the basis of total cost to the owner vs overall sound quality ONLY then I would say "That's entirely up to you. You do what you want and I will do what I want." I would also state that my basis for comparing hi-fi is based purely on logic.

For the vast majority of us; (people who have to work for a living) time is money. So I am therefore sort of comparing total time required vs overall sound quality.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
16
2
0
Escapism, looking at post #334 I'd like to remind you of house rule number 1:

"1. Members must not post libellous, racist, aggressive or otherwise insulting or abusive remarks about any individual, company or organisation."

Edited by mods.

If you are not able to participate on this forum without repeatedly breaking the house rules, then in my opinion you shouldn't be allowed to post on here at all.
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
0
0
ID. said:
lindsayt said:
davedotco said:
Escapism said:
lindsayt said:
davedotco said:
Shadders is really only arguing one point and one point only. He mentions other unsubstantiated AVI claims in passing but this is really about the power.

Ie: That the 250 + 75watt rating is not correct as the system does not have the power supply and heatsinking to sustain continuous power at this level.

He is 100% correct on this. It is unarguable, he has won the argument right there. All this guff about 'industry standard' measurements is just nonsense, there is no standard as anyone with a passing knowledge of amplifier specs will know.

The fact that it is irrelevant to the quality and performance of the speaker system does not matter in this instance.

However it is a realistic figure in that it relates, quite closely I think, to the subjective performance of the speakers. For a compact design the power and lack of dynamic compression is very impressive, it sounds like a very powerful system so from a descriptive point of view, I think the ratings are 'realistic'.

On a separate but related point, it also explains why the ADMs would be of very limited use in a studio situation. They simply would not go loud enough for long enough, simple as that. There are some ADMs and DM5s used professionally, but the applications are specific and they are usually the personal speakers of the engineer in question, a very different proposition from regular 'studio for hire' type of recording work.
davedotco, I wasn't aware that you'd actually heard AVI DM10's.

Have you actually heard them? Have you actually heard them in a comprative A/B demo?

Or were your comments on the subjective performance of the speakers based on hearsay?
not to worry, most others commenting haven't either.
I am very familiar with ADM9T, a friend has a set of these, they are late models bought a few months before the introduction of the 9RS. I have heard these many times and even had them in my home on a couple of occasions.

My subjective evaluation is based on this, I generally use the term 'ADMs' when commenting on these speakers, not ADM9 or ADM10, simply to give a more general viewpoint of the ADM range.

I should have been more specific.
I've heard the same model AVI speakers that you have and I'd rate them as a somewhat compressed, with an overly lean bass.

Someone whose judgement I trust on hi-fi has also heard the same model and he described them as "flat, unmusical and boring."

Is your praise of the ADM9T's akin to someone praising a dancing bear? Where the praise isn't because the bear can dance well, but because the bear can dance at all.
is that comparing like with like (similar sized drivers and cabinets, prices) or is that comparing to your million yen 40kg club?

My personal view is that throwing 2nd hand into the equation isn't really a fair comparison, especially once the kit gets so old that one needs to have specialized knowledge/spend significant time on research or be able to carry out certain repairs oneself, because while it's "free" that's only because there isn't a a metric put on the time and effort. If I apply my hourly billable rate, the 2nd hand kit becomes far more expensive. In our relatively time poor and money rich modern society one shouldn't forget the premium people put on convenience. Now if you enjoy those aspects of finding 2nd hand kit, well then that's as much a part of the hobby, but most people don't.
With new and used, particularly vintage product, does not make any sense to me.

Buying and, if required, repairing and restoring vintage equipment is a hobby in itself, as you say, not everyone is into that.

Buying modern used (or ex dem) equipment can work well, particularly if you are able choose less well known product, the ADM9T mentioned earlier routinely sell for about £400, very fine vfm in my view.

Before I bought my Adams I looked at a pair of ADM9rs, the model after the '9T, a bit more expensive but I would have bought them had they been in good condition, which they were not.

You may get lucky and pick up a pair at a car boot sale for £50 but such sales do not really set the market value.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
88
18,670
bigboss said:
shadders said:
bigboss said:
shadders said:
bigboss said:
If I was in the market for some speakers, and if AVI stated, for example, 50w into 8 ohms, I would feel cheated, because there's no 8 ohms in it! What would you suggest for this shadders? You cannot compare passives with actives this way at all. If people compare performance between actives and passives this way, they need education as to how to compare specs, not follow their wrong path to satisfy what they're looking for.
Hi,

Quoting against 8 ohms or the actual impedance is the industry standard. That is how you can compare actives with other actives, and see if you are obtaining value for money. I never stated compare passive to actives.

Regards,

Shadders.
Is it the industry standard? Any links to support that?
Hi,

Yes - after checking the wiki - the following IEC standard specifies the characteristics of the amplifier that should be specified and how they should be specified.

https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/1220

IEC 60268-3:2013.

The above standard relates specifically to power amplifiers, and has been updated for Class D amplifiers aswell. If you search for it - the abstract which you can download, has the contents page where you can see all specifications that should be provided.

Regards,

Shadders.
Thanks, any link where it's available as a free download? Will be useful to check the actual standards and conditions where it should be applied. Why are industry standards so difficult to find online, and why are they charging for it?
Hi,

No, not possible to obtain free online. Standards are a dry subject, but i have learnt a lot from them - they provide a different way of thinking about a subject, you may be familiar with. For this standard - i do not have a copy - £216 for this specific document - is a lot of money as you say.

For these standards - i think (i am not absolutely sure) in the EU, you have to comply if you publish the information which is covered by the standard. The standard does not mean you must publish all data that it has standardised, or contain within the standard.

Why they charge i am not sure - possibly to recoup the funding for the work that comprises of writing the standard etc.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ID.

New member
Feb 22, 2010
207
0
0
My hourly rate is significantly higher, and I'd also have to admit that, personally, I'm not that technically minded. The skills, knowledge and backgrounds of people in this hobby vary greatly. Personally, if I spent a couple of days doing the required research and then searching for products in suitable condition that would be the equivalent of doubling the price in my mind. There's also the fact that ADMs have an almost lifestyle product marketing angle where the convenience and de cluttering aspects are promoted, which from my perspective is the opposite of your philosophy for achieving audio nirvana.

while I respect your judgment and knowledge I still maintain that you are comparing apples and oranges.

It would be more value to me knowing how you feel about products with a similar driver and cabinet size at various price points.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
16
2
0
ID, every hamster coffin 2 way ported speaker that I've heard has been seriously sonically flawed.

The ADM 9T's had a marketing angle where they were claimed to be better than any passive speaker ever made. That's not lifestyle. That's pretty much highest of the high end, sound quality wise. Claims that were not borne out in any way shape or form when I heard them.

ID there will be plenty of people reading this who have an effective hourly rate that is lower than my £30 per hour. Good for you if you have a high income.

And also to counter your argument about you spending time searching for products in suitable condition, does that mean that anyone buying new should add their time spent reading What Hi-fi magazine, time spent in online forums looking for guidance on what to buy, time spent travelling to dealers and sitting in dealers? Or if buying direct from the manufacturer, time spent placing the order, time spent going to the couriers depot to collect it or sitting at home waiting for the delivery to arrive and time spent evaluating the product, deciding if they want to keep it or not?
 

bigboss

Moderator
shadders said:
bigboss said:
shadders said:
bigboss said:
shadders said:
bigboss said:
If I was in the market for some speakers, and if AVI stated, for example, 50w into 8 ohms, I would feel cheated, because there's no 8 ohms in it! What would you suggest for this shadders? You cannot compare passives with actives this way at all. If people compare performance between actives and passives this way, they need education as to how to compare specs, not follow their wrong path to satisfy what they're looking for.
Hi,

Quoting against 8 ohms or the actual impedance is the industry standard. That is how you can compare actives with other actives, and see if you are obtaining value for money. I never stated compare passive to actives.

Regards,

Shadders.
Is it the industry standard? Any links to support that?
Hi,

Yes - after checking the wiki - the following IEC standard specifies the characteristics of the amplifier that should be specified and how they should be specified.

https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/1220

IEC 60268-3:2013.

The above standard relates specifically to power amplifiers, and has been updated for Class D amplifiers aswell. If you search for it - the abstract which you can download, has the contents page where you can see all specifications that should be provided.

Regards,

Shadders.
Thanks, any link where it's available as a free download? Will be useful to check the actual standards and conditions where it should be applied. Why are industry standards so difficult to find online, and why are they charging for it?
Hi,

No, not possible to obtain free online. Standards are a dry subject, but i have learnt a lot from them - they provide a different way of thinking about a subject, you may be familiar with. For this standard - i do not have a copy - £216 for this specific document - is a lot of money as you say.

For these standards - i think (i am not absolutely sure) in the EU, you have to comply if you publish the information which is covered by the standard. The standard does not mean you must publish all data that it has standardised, or contain within the standard.

Why they charge i am not sure - possibly to recoup the funding for the work that comprises of writing the standard etc. 

Regards,

Shadders.
I've never ever seen any mandatory standards charging money just to view them. I seriously doubt they're mandatory standards.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
88
18,670
bigboss said:
shadders said:
bigboss said:
shadders said:
bigboss said:
shadders said:
bigboss said:
If I was in the market for some speakers, and if AVI stated, for example, 50w into 8 ohms, I would feel cheated, because there's no 8 ohms in it! What would you suggest for this shadders? You cannot compare passives with actives this way at all. If people compare performance between actives and passives this way, they need education as to how to compare specs, not follow their wrong path to satisfy what they're looking for.
Hi,

Quoting against 8 ohms or the actual impedance is the industry standard. That is how you can compare actives with other actives, and see if you are obtaining value for money. I never stated compare passive to actives.

Regards,

Shadders.
Is it the industry standard? Any links to support that?
Hi,

Yes - after checking the wiki - the following IEC standard specifies the characteristics of the amplifier that should be specified and how they should be specified.

https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/1220

IEC 60268-3:2013.

The above standard relates specifically to power amplifiers, and has been updated for Class D amplifiers aswell. If you search for it - the abstract which you can download, has the contents page where you can see all specifications that should be provided.

Regards,

Shadders.
Thanks, any link where it's available as a free download? Will be useful to check the actual standards and conditions where it should be applied. Why are industry standards so difficult to find online, and why are they charging for it?
Hi,

No, not possible to obtain free online. Standards are a dry subject, but i have learnt a lot from them - they provide a different way of thinking about a subject, you may be familiar with. For this standard - i do not have a copy - £216 for this specific document - is a lot of money as you say.

For these standards - i think (i am not absolutely sure) in the EU, you have to comply if you publish the information which is covered by the standard. The standard does not mean you must publish all data that it has standardised, or contain within the standard.

Why they charge i am not sure - possibly to recoup the funding for the work that comprises of writing the standard etc.

Regards,

Shadders.
I've never ever seen any mandatory standards charging money just to view them. I seriously doubt they're mandatory standards.
Hi,

Many standards cost to download. EN, ITU etc - they all cost money, and EN and ITU are mandatory. Depends on the business you may be working in.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
88
18,670
bigboss said:
So what do the standards exactly say? Just reading the contents page doesn't say anything. Surely, there will be a website who has published them.
Hi,

I think it will be against copyright to publish without authorisation, and since they charge for the publications, probably will not be granted.

The standards are technical - for the power amplifier, and specifically the power output, it will state the conditions for the measurement of continuous and short term outputs. Will probably specify the load impedance to be used, the frequency (if appropriate), and the measured values should be THD, current (possibly), and the relevant power output.

The power output by the amp will be dependent on the THD the manufacturer wants to specify - that is, this amp has a 100watts continuous output with THD = 0.001%, at a specific frequency, as an example. THD generally increases with input frequency - so they may specify the THD at 1kHz.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

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