AVI DM5

[shadders]

...the specs Event give for their Opals are roughly twice what AVI states for DM10s. Can they be correct? Interestingly they also have steep 8th order XOs.

http://www.eventelectronics.com/opal

Hi,

We don't have Event owners on this forum claiming passive systems are broken, handicapped, or whose passive filters are power sapping.

If people quote figures that do not meet the industry standard for an amplifier power, or qualify the figures that they are quoting with load, waveform, duration, THD etc., then you must expect them to be challenged when they use those figures in their arguments.

Yes, but as AVI's power claims have been dismissed as impossible by forum members I wonder if those members would find Opal's claims just as rich as AVI's? And if not, wouldn't Opal's specs then support AVI's claims?

Hi,

No, people have not stated impossible, but have questioned that they are a continuous rating. Reponse to this is that it is peak, which should be translated to burst power. Peak implies divide by SQRT(2) to obtain continuous.

The AVI website states 250W, but omits to state the conditions for this figure. A cynical person may envisage that AVI want people to believe it is 250W contiuous, because it sounds like a nice large number and ia comparable to high power amplifiers.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[shadders]

the haters, are self motivated, be it for whatever reason. You are not providing a public service.

I would imagine that if the lies of AVI were so great and misleading Hi-fi Plus, Gramophone and way back What Hi-fi would have openly challenged this but in the reviews I've read it's not even been touched on.

At the end of the day people don't listen to ratings or specs. You don't have to listen to my system, I do... move on, try focusing on some other injustice, it's a pair of bloody speakers!

If a great injustice has been done then the publications mentioned above have failed. I think perhaps though they operate in real world terms more than the haters on here.

I suppose that's my point, in case I wasn't clear.

Hi,

People questioning published facts by AVI does not make them haters. The AVI owners (yourself excluded) have made statements regarding passive systems as broken, or those further up in this thread. They cannot prove their statements, so are just repeating what they are told by, I can only assume, other AVI owners, or AVI staff.

If AVI have misrepresented the facts (such as the amplifier power), then what else have they misrepresented?

It is not the function of the Hifi publications to correct injustices.

The Hifi press will review as seen, and if they happen to include measurements, will report these accurately. I have seen reports where they state the amplifier very much exceeds the stated specification, and others where they state that they only just meet the published specification.

So, if it is the AVI owners who denigrate passive speakers, use AVI published data/facts (which are in error, or are dubious) to claim that the AVI speakers are superior to passive speakers, then I contend that it is not the "haters" of AVI that are the problem, but the AVI owners who are in fact the "haters" of passive systems.

Regards,

Shadders.

SCM40A

Overview

New ATC designed and built dual suspension 25mm soft dome HF unit with precision alloy wave guide.ATC Soft Dome mid-range driver.ATC 164mm short coil bass driver.All drive units incorporate massive optimised motor assemblies.On-board grounded source 242 watt Class A/B Tri-amplifier.Active crossover filters and overload protection.

Drivers: HF ATC 25mm dual suspension Tweeter, Mid 75mm ATC Soft Dome, LF ATC 164mm SC Matched Response: ±0.5dB Frequency Response (-6dB): 48Hz-22kHz Dispersion: ±80° Coherent Horizontal, ±10° Coherent Vertical Max SPL: 112dB Crossover Frequencies: 380Hz & 3.5kHz Connectors: Male XLR Input sensitivity : 1V Filters : 4th Order critically damped with phase compensation. Overload Protection : Active FET momentary gain reduction. Fault Protection : DC fault protection and thermal trip. Fault indication on rear panel mounted LED. Amplifier Output: 150W LF, 60W MF, 32W HF Cabinet Dimensions (HxWxD): 980 x 370 x 344mm (inc. foot plinth & amp, spikes add 25mm to height, grill adds 34mm to depth) Weight: 36kg

Heres the specs for.the atc scm40 active Whats the difference in the way they state the power?

Hi,

Examining the LF driver power amplifier figure which is stated to be 150watts, I "expect" this to be R.M.S. value. Why? If you examine the website pictures you can see that the rear of the speaker has a heatsink which is approximately 300mm in length. This indicates that the amplifiers are rated as continuous powers. If you examine the AVI rear panel, there is no heatsink, as per the ATC's, yet the AVI has an extra 100W rated power above the 150W of the ATC's. Hmmmmm, something is amiss here?

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Andrewjvt]

the haters, are self motivated, be it for whatever reason. You are not providing a public service.

I would imagine that if the lies of AVI were so great and misleading Hi-fi Plus, Gramophone and way back What Hi-fi would have openly challenged this but in the reviews I've read it's not even been touched on.

At the end of the day people don't listen to ratings or specs. You don't have to listen to my system, I do... move on,  try focusing on some other injustice, it's a pair of bloody speakers! 

If a great injustice has been done then the publications mentioned above have failed. I think perhaps though they operate in real world terms more than the haters on here.

I suppose that's my point, in case I wasn't clear.

 

Hi,

People questioning published facts by AVI does not make them haters. The AVI owners (yourself excluded) have made statements regarding passive systems as broken, or those further up in this thread. They cannot prove their statements, so are just repeating what they are told by, I can only assume, other AVI owners, or AVI staff.

If AVI have misrepresented the facts (such as the amplifier power), then what else have they misrepresented?

It is not the function of the Hifi publications to correct injustices.

The Hifi press will review as seen, and if they happen to include measurements, will report these accurately. I have seen reports where they state the amplifier very much exceeds the stated specification, and others where they state that they only just meet the published specification.

So, if it is the AVI owners who denigrate passive speakers, use AVI published data/facts (which are in error, or are dubious) to claim that the AVI speakers are superior to passive speakers, then I contend that it is not the "haters" of AVI that are the problem, but the AVI owners who are in fact the "haters" of passive systems.

Regards,

Shadders.

SCM40A

Overview

New ATC designed and built dual suspension 25mm soft dome HF unit with precision alloy wave guide.ATC Soft Dome mid-range driver.ATC 164mm short coil bass driver.All drive units incorporate massive optimised motor assemblies.On-board grounded source 242 watt Class A/B Tri-amplifier.Active crossover filters and overload protection.

Drivers: HF ATC 25mm dual suspension Tweeter, Mid 75mm ATC Soft Dome, LF ATC 164mm SC Matched Response: ±0.5dB Frequency Response (-6dB): 48Hz-22kHz Dispersion: ±80° Coherent Horizontal, ±10° Coherent Vertical Max SPL: 112dB Crossover Frequencies: 380Hz & 3.5kHz Connectors: Male XLR Input sensitivity : 1V Filters : 4th Order critically damped with phase compensation. Overload Protection : Active FET momentary gain reduction. Fault Protection : DC fault protection and thermal trip. Fault indication on rear panel mounted LED. Amplifier Output: 150W LF, 60W MF, 32W HF Cabinet Dimensions (HxWxD): 980 x 370 x 344mm (inc. foot plinth & amp, spikes add 25mm to height, grill adds 34mm to depth) Weight: 36kg

Heres the specs for.the atc scm40 active Whats the difference in the way they state the power?

Hi,

Examining the LF driver power amplifier figure which is stated to be 150watts, I "expect" this to be R.M.S. value. Why? If you examine the website pictures you can see that the rear of the speaker has a heatsink which is approximately 300mm in length. This indicates that the amplifiers are rated as continuous powers. If you examine the AVI rear panel, there is no heatsink, as per the ATC's, yet the AVI has an extra 100W rated power above the 150W of the ATC's. Hmmmmm, something is amiss here?

Regards,

Shadders.

At what ohm is the power? Its not mentioned as in most active speakers.

Now lets get one thing clear:
Atc is my favourite brand of speaker and im not doubting the power claims. Im just showing that most active specs only show the power in watts unlike passive amps.
Thats all.

 

[shadders]

the haters, are self motivated, be it for whatever reason. You are not providing a public service.

I would imagine that if the lies of AVI were so great and misleading Hi-fi Plus, Gramophone and way back What Hi-fi would have openly challenged this but in the reviews I've read it's not even been touched on.

At the end of the day people don't listen to ratings or specs. You don't have to listen to my system, I do... move on, try focusing on some other injustice, it's a pair of bloody speakers!

If a great injustice has been done then the publications mentioned above have failed. I think perhaps though they operate in real world terms more than the haters on here.

I suppose that's my point, in case I wasn't clear.

Hi,

People questioning published facts by AVI does not make them haters. The AVI owners (yourself excluded) have made statements regarding passive systems as broken, or those further up in this thread. They cannot prove their statements, so are just repeating what they are told by, I can only assume, other AVI owners, or AVI staff.

If AVI have misrepresented the facts (such as the amplifier power), then what else have they misrepresented?

It is not the function of the Hifi publications to correct injustices.

The Hifi press will review as seen, and if they happen to include measurements, will report these accurately. I have seen reports where they state the amplifier very much exceeds the stated specification, and others where they state that they only just meet the published specification.

So, if it is the AVI owners who denigrate passive speakers, use AVI published data/facts (which are in error, or are dubious) to claim that the AVI speakers are superior to passive speakers, then I contend that it is not the "haters" of AVI that are the problem, but the AVI owners who are in fact the "haters" of passive systems.

Regards,

Shadders.

SCM40A

Overview

New ATC designed and built dual suspension 25mm soft dome HF unit with precision alloy wave guide.ATC Soft Dome mid-range driver.ATC 164mm short coil bass driver.All drive units incorporate massive optimised motor assemblies.On-board grounded source 242 watt Class A/B Tri-amplifier.Active crossover filters and overload protection.

Drivers: HF ATC 25mm dual suspension Tweeter, Mid 75mm ATC Soft Dome, LF ATC 164mm SC Matched Response: ±0.5dB Frequency Response (-6dB): 48Hz-22kHz Dispersion: ±80° Coherent Horizontal, ±10° Coherent Vertical Max SPL: 112dB Crossover Frequencies: 380Hz & 3.5kHz Connectors: Male XLR Input sensitivity : 1V Filters : 4th Order critically damped with phase compensation. Overload Protection : Active FET momentary gain reduction. Fault Protection : DC fault protection and thermal trip. Fault indication on rear panel mounted LED. Amplifier Output: 150W LF, 60W MF, 32W HF Cabinet Dimensions (HxWxD): 980 x 370 x 344mm (inc. foot plinth & amp, spikes add 25mm to height, grill adds 34mm to depth) Weight: 36kg

Heres the specs for.the atc scm40 active Whats the difference in the way they state the power?

Hi,

Examining the LF driver power amplifier figure which is stated to be 150watts, I "expect" this to be R.M.S. value. Why? If you examine the website pictures you can see that the rear of the speaker has a heatsink which is approximately 300mm in length. This indicates that the amplifiers are rated as continuous powers. If you examine the AVI rear panel, there is no heatsink, as per the ATC's, yet the AVI has an extra 100W rated power above the 150W of the ATC's. Hmmmmm, something is amiss here?

Regards,

Shadders.

At what ohm is the power? Its not mentioned as in most active speakers.

Now lets get one thing clear: Atc is my favourite brand of speaker and im not doubting the power claims. Im just showing that most active specs only show the power in watts unlike passive amps. Thats all.

Hi,

Yes, but ATC are being truthful. This rating will be into 8ohms, which is the industry standard, or if not, at the nominal impedance of the LF driver.

Whatever the impedance stated, or not stated, you will be experiencing this power, if the driver allows. Continuously. If you really want to.

With the AVI website data, which states 250W for the DM 10, we don't know how long that 250W can be sustained. Under what conditions is the 250W available?

The fact that this impedance information is not stated, allows for false figures to be stated to provide a perceived superiority over other products. You are being duped.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[richardw42]

Re. Your first paragraph. Do you know that for sure.

AVI power rating is roughly at 5 ohms

the published specs for the Event Opal are at 5 ohms both active and representing the particular drivers they are connected to

Spot a pattern ? You state 8 ohms is the industry standard. Have you got an ISO number for that ?

Re the active vs passive, try and find that PMC video, then comment.

 

[Alberich]

Shadders your efforts are admirable and your reasoning sound but you're shoveling sh*t against the tide.

 

[lindsayt]

...the specs Event give for their Opals are roughly twice what AVI states for DM10s. Can they be correct? Interestingly they also have steep 8th order XOs.

http://www.eventelectronics.com/opal

There's more heatsinking on the Event Opals than DM10's.

However, the transformer size, the apparent amount of capacitance in the power supply and the apparent lack of a large bank of transistors indicate that the power figures quoted by Event on their website may well be misleading / lies.

 

[shadders]

Re. Your first paragraph. Do you know that for sure.

AVI power rating is roughly at 5 ohms

the published specs for the Event Opal are at 5 ohms both active and representing the particular drivers they are connected to

Spot a pattern ? You state 8 ohms is the industry standard. Have you got an ISO number for that ?

Re the active vs passive, try and find that PMC video, then comment.

Hi,

Whatever the power rating, and whatever the load, it is the continuous power that matters. I am very confident that the power stated by ATC is R.M.S., and continuous. Examine the back of the ATC speaker, and you can see the difference in heatsinking compared to the DM10.

You do not buy a 1kW heater that only produces 200watts continuous.

You do not buy a 700watts microwave oven whose maximum power is 140watts continuous as it may not cook your food correctly.

The same with amplifiers, it is continuous power that matters.

As I stated above, the 250watts quoted by AVI is in error, as it tells you nothing about the true capability of the amplifier. All they have done is stated a nice big number.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[nopiano]

...the specs Event give for their Opals are roughly twice what AVI states for DM10s. Can they be correct? Interestingly they also have steep 8th order XOs.

http://www.eventelectronics.com/opal

There's more heatsinking on the Event Opals than DM10's.

However, the transformer size, the apparent amount of capacitance in the power supply and the apparent lack of a large bank of transistors indicate that the power figures quoted by Event on their website may well be misleading / lies.

True, but they do quote the dB output, which the relevant rating by which to compare active speakers.

 

[shadders]

...the specs Event give for their Opals are roughly twice what AVI states for DM10s. Can they be correct? Interestingly they also have steep 8th order XOs.

http://www.eventelectronics.com/opal

There's more heatsinking on the Event Opals than DM10's.

However, the transformer size, the apparent amount of capacitance in the power supply and the apparent lack of a large bank of transistors indicate that the power figures quoted by Event on their website may well be misleading / lies.

Hi,

Examining the picture, the heatsink is approx 420mm high, and there may be electronics behind the PCB - there is a cavity. Hence why they can quote their figures which seems to be possible. For a class A/B amplifier, the size is still small, but if you examine a high power amplifier, their depth is upto 350mm (hifi equipment width is usually 430mm).

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Andrewjvt]

the haters, are self motivated, be it for whatever reason. You are not providing a public service.

I would imagine that if the lies of AVI were so great and misleading Hi-fi Plus, Gramophone and way back What Hi-fi would have openly challenged this but in the reviews I've read it's not even been touched on.

At the end of the day people don't listen to ratings or specs. You don't have to listen to my system, I do... move on,  try focusing on some other injustice, it's a pair of bloody speakers! 

If a great injustice has been done then the publications mentioned above have failed. I think perhaps though they operate in real world terms more than the haters on here.

I suppose that's my point, in case I wasn't clear.

 

Hi,

People questioning published facts by AVI does not make them haters. The AVI owners (yourself excluded) have made statements regarding passive systems as broken, or those further up in this thread. They cannot prove their statements, so are just repeating what they are told by, I can only assume, other AVI owners, or AVI staff.

If AVI have misrepresented the facts (such as the amplifier power), then what else have they misrepresented?

It is not the function of the Hifi publications to correct injustices.

The Hifi press will review as seen, and if they happen to include measurements, will report these accurately. I have seen reports where they state the amplifier very much exceeds the stated specification, and others where they state that they only just meet the published specification.

So, if it is the AVI owners who denigrate passive speakers, use AVI published data/facts (which are in error, or are dubious) to claim that the AVI speakers are superior to passive speakers, then I contend that it is not the "haters" of AVI that are the problem, but the AVI owners who are in fact the "haters" of passive systems.

Regards,

Shadders.

SCM40A

Overview

New ATC designed and built dual suspension 25mm soft dome HF unit with precision alloy wave guide.ATC Soft Dome mid-range driver.ATC 164mm short coil bass driver.All drive units incorporate massive optimised motor assemblies.On-board grounded source 242 watt Class A/B Tri-amplifier.Active crossover filters and overload protection.

Drivers: HF ATC 25mm dual suspension Tweeter, Mid 75mm ATC Soft Dome, LF ATC 164mm SC Matched Response: ±0.5dB Frequency Response (-6dB): 48Hz-22kHz Dispersion: ±80° Coherent Horizontal, ±10° Coherent Vertical Max SPL: 112dB Crossover Frequencies: 380Hz & 3.5kHz Connectors: Male XLR Input sensitivity : 1V Filters : 4th Order critically damped with phase compensation. Overload Protection : Active FET momentary gain reduction. Fault Protection : DC fault protection and thermal trip. Fault indication on rear panel mounted LED. Amplifier Output: 150W LF, 60W MF, 32W HF Cabinet Dimensions (HxWxD): 980 x 370 x 344mm (inc. foot plinth & amp, spikes add 25mm to height, grill adds 34mm to depth) Weight: 36kg

Heres the specs for.the atc scm40 active Whats the difference in the way they state the power?

Hi,

Examining the LF driver power amplifier figure which is stated to be 150watts, I "expect" this to be R.M.S. value. Why? If you examine the website pictures you can see that the rear of the speaker has a heatsink which is approximately 300mm in length. This indicates that the amplifiers are rated as continuous powers. If you examine the AVI rear panel, there is no heatsink, as per the ATC's, yet the AVI has an extra 100W rated power above the 150W of the ATC's. Hmmmmm, something is amiss here?

Regards,

Shadders.

At what ohm is the power? Its not mentioned as in most active speakers.

Now lets get one thing clear: Atc is my favourite brand of speaker and im not doubting the power claims. Im just showing that most active specs only show the power in watts unlike passive amps. Thats all.

Hi,

Yes, but ATC are being truthful. This rating will be into 8ohms, which is the industry standard, or if not, at the nominal impedance of the LF driver.

Whatever the impedance stated, or not stated, you will be experiencing this power, if the driver allows. Continuously. If you really want to.

With the AVI website data, which states 250W for the DM 10, we don't know how long that 250W can be sustained. Under what conditions is the 250W available?

The fact that this impedance information is not stated, allows for false figures to be stated to provide a perceived superiority over other products. You are being duped.

Regards,

Shadders.

But when i compared my hegel (250w into 8ohms)
I never felt the dm10s were lacking in power in relation to my amp.
And the sound was clearer and less distorted.

We having another test in 2 weeks so we see again if i was correct. And we having more people so no chance to bs

 

[richardw42]

Hi,

Whatever the power rating, and whatever the load, it is the continuous power that matters. I am very confident that the power stated by ATC is R.M.S., and continuous. Examine the back of the ATC speaker, and you can see the difference in heatsinking compared to the DM10.

You do not buy a 1kW heater that only produces 200watts continuous.

You do not buy a 700watts microwave oven whose maximum power is 140watts continuous as it may not cook your food correctly.

The same with amplifiers, it is continuous power that matters.

As I stated above, the 250watts quoted by AVI is in error, as it tells you nothing about the true capability of the amplifier. All they have done is stated a nice big number.

Regards,

Shadders.

i do believe the ATC figures, I'm just saying that I wouldn't be sure is was into a theoretical 8 ohms. I have ADM40 which are powerful and I'd expect the ATCs to be at least somewhere in the same region.

 

[Alberich]

the haters, are self motivated, be it for whatever reason. You are not providing a public service.

I would imagine that if the lies of AVI were so great and misleading Hi-fi Plus, Gramophone and way back What Hi-fi would have openly challenged this but in the reviews I've read it's not even been touched on.

At the end of the day people don't listen to ratings or specs. You don't have to listen to my system, I do... move on,  try focusing on some other injustice, it's a pair of bloody speakers! 

If a great injustice has been done then the publications mentioned above have failed. I think perhaps though they operate in real world terms more than the haters on here.

I suppose that's my point, in case I wasn't clear.

 

Hi,

People questioning published facts by AVI does not make them haters. The AVI owners (yourself excluded) have made statements regarding passive systems as broken, or those further up in this thread. They cannot prove their statements, so are just repeating what they are told by, I can only assume, other AVI owners, or AVI staff.

If AVI have misrepresented the facts (such as the amplifier power), then what else have they misrepresented?

It is not the function of the Hifi publications to correct injustices.

The Hifi press will review as seen, and if they happen to include measurements, will report these accurately. I have seen reports where they state the amplifier very much exceeds the stated specification, and others where they state that they only just meet the published specification.

So, if it is the AVI owners who denigrate passive speakers, use AVI published data/facts (which are in error, or are dubious) to claim that the AVI speakers are superior to passive speakers, then I contend that it is not the "haters" of AVI that are the problem, but the AVI owners who are in fact the "haters" of passive systems.

Regards,

Shadders.

SCM40A

Overview

New ATC designed and built dual suspension 25mm soft dome HF unit with precision alloy wave guide.ATC Soft Dome mid-range driver.ATC 164mm short coil bass driver.All drive units incorporate massive optimised motor assemblies.On-board grounded source 242 watt Class A/B Tri-amplifier.Active crossover filters and overload protection.

Drivers: HF ATC 25mm dual suspension Tweeter, Mid 75mm ATC Soft Dome, LF ATC 164mm SC Matched Response: ±0.5dB Frequency Response (-6dB): 48Hz-22kHz Dispersion: ±80° Coherent Horizontal, ±10° Coherent Vertical Max SPL: 112dB Crossover Frequencies: 380Hz & 3.5kHz Connectors: Male XLR Input sensitivity : 1V Filters : 4th Order critically damped with phase compensation. Overload Protection : Active FET momentary gain reduction. Fault Protection : DC fault protection and thermal trip. Fault indication on rear panel mounted LED. Amplifier Output: 150W LF, 60W MF, 32W HF Cabinet Dimensions (HxWxD): 980 x 370 x 344mm (inc. foot plinth & amp, spikes add 25mm to height, grill adds 34mm to depth) Weight: 36kg

Heres the specs for.the atc scm40 active Whats the difference in the way they state the power?

Hi,

Examining the LF driver power amplifier figure which is stated to be 150watts, I "expect" this to be R.M.S. value. Why? If you examine the website pictures you can see that the rear of the speaker has a heatsink which is approximately 300mm in length. This indicates that the amplifiers are rated as continuous powers. If you examine the AVI rear panel, there is no heatsink, as per the ATC's, yet the AVI has an extra 100W rated power above the 150W of the ATC's. Hmmmmm, something is amiss here?

Regards,

Shadders.

At what ohm is the power? Its not mentioned as in most active speakers.

Now lets get one thing clear: Atc is my favourite brand of speaker and im not doubting the power claims. Im just showing that most active specs only show the power in watts unlike passive amps. Thats all.

Hi,

Yes, but ATC are being truthful. This rating will be into 8ohms, which is the industry standard, or if not, at the nominal impedance of the LF driver.

Whatever the impedance stated, or not stated, you will be experiencing this power, if the driver allows. Continuously. If you really want to.

With the AVI website data, which states 250W for the DM 10, we don't know how long that 250W can be sustained. Under what conditions is the 250W available?

The fact that this impedance information is not stated, allows for false figures to be stated to provide a perceived superiority over other products. You are being duped.

Regards,

Shadders.

But when i compared my hegel (250w into 8ohms)
I never felt the dm10s were lacking in power in relation to my amp.
And the sound was clearer and less distorted.

We having another test in 2 weeks so we see again if i was correct. And we having more people so no chance to bs

The DM10's performance in terms of perceived power output when compared to the Hegel's 250w may largely be down to its active crossover design.
I wouldn't agree with AVI's stance that all passive crossovers are an abomination and the bane of the earth but active crossovers have the upper hand no doubt about it.
However 250w LF 75w HF continuous output ( which AVI are happy to imply ) I doubt very much.

 

[Andrewjvt]

the haters, are self motivated, be it for whatever reason. You are not providing a public service.

I would imagine that if the lies of AVI were so great and misleading Hi-fi Plus, Gramophone and way back What Hi-fi would have openly challenged this but in the reviews I've read it's not even been touched on.

At the end of the day people don't listen to ratings or specs. You don't have to listen to my system, I do... move on,  try focusing on some other injustice, it's a pair of bloody speakers! 

If a great injustice has been done then the publications mentioned above have failed. I think perhaps though they operate in real world terms more than the haters on here.

I suppose that's my point, in case I wasn't clear.

 

Hi,

People questioning published facts by AVI does not make them haters. The AVI owners (yourself excluded) have made statements regarding passive systems as broken, or those further up in this thread. They cannot prove their statements, so are just repeating what they are told by, I can only assume, other AVI owners, or AVI staff.

If AVI have misrepresented the facts (such as the amplifier power), then what else have they misrepresented?

It is not the function of the Hifi publications to correct injustices.

The Hifi press will review as seen, and if they happen to include measurements, will report these accurately. I have seen reports where they state the amplifier very much exceeds the stated specification, and others where they state that they only just meet the published specification.

So, if it is the AVI owners who denigrate passive speakers, use AVI published data/facts (which are in error, or are dubious) to claim that the AVI speakers are superior to passive speakers, then I contend that it is not the "haters" of AVI that are the problem, but the AVI owners who are in fact the "haters" of passive systems.

Regards,

Shadders.

SCM40A

Overview

New ATC designed and built dual suspension 25mm soft dome HF unit with precision alloy wave guide.ATC Soft Dome mid-range driver.ATC 164mm short coil bass driver.All drive units incorporate massive optimised motor assemblies.On-board grounded source 242 watt Class A/B Tri-amplifier.Active crossover filters and overload protection.

Drivers: HF ATC 25mm dual suspension Tweeter, Mid 75mm ATC Soft Dome, LF ATC 164mm SC Matched Response: ±0.5dB Frequency Response (-6dB): 48Hz-22kHz Dispersion: ±80° Coherent Horizontal, ±10° Coherent Vertical Max SPL: 112dB Crossover Frequencies: 380Hz & 3.5kHz Connectors: Male XLR Input sensitivity : 1V Filters : 4th Order critically damped with phase compensation. Overload Protection : Active FET momentary gain reduction. Fault Protection : DC fault protection and thermal trip. Fault indication on rear panel mounted LED. Amplifier Output: 150W LF, 60W MF, 32W HF Cabinet Dimensions (HxWxD): 980 x 370 x 344mm (inc. foot plinth & amp, spikes add 25mm to height, grill adds 34mm to depth) Weight: 36kg

Heres the specs for.the atc scm40 active Whats the difference in the way they state the power?

Hi,

Examining the LF driver power amplifier figure which is stated to be 150watts, I "expect" this to be R.M.S. value. Why? If you examine the website pictures you can see that the rear of the speaker has a heatsink which is approximately 300mm in length. This indicates that the amplifiers are rated as continuous powers. If you examine the AVI rear panel, there is no heatsink, as per the ATC's, yet the AVI has an extra 100W rated power above the 150W of the ATC's. Hmmmmm, something is amiss here?

Regards,

Shadders.

At what ohm is the power? Its not mentioned as in most active speakers.

Now lets get one thing clear: Atc is my favourite brand of speaker and im not doubting the power claims. Im just showing that most active specs only show the power in watts unlike passive amps. Thats all.

Hi,

Yes, but ATC are being truthful. This rating will be into 8ohms, which is the industry standard, or if not, at the nominal impedance of the LF driver.

Whatever the impedance stated, or not stated, you will be experiencing this power, if the driver allows. Continuously. If you really want to.

With the AVI website data, which states 250W for the DM 10, we don't know how long that 250W can be sustained. Under what conditions is the 250W available?

The fact that this impedance information is not stated, allows for false figures to be stated to provide a perceived superiority over other products. You are being duped.

Regards,

Shadders.

But when i compared my hegel (250w into 8ohms)
I never felt the dm10s were lacking in power in relation to my amp.
And the sound was clearer and less distorted.

We having another test in 2 weeks so we see again if i was correct. And we having more people so no chance to bs

The DM10's performance in terms of perceived power output when compared to the Hegel's 250w may largely be down to its active crossover design.
I wouldn't agree with AVI's stance that all passive crossovers are an abomination and the bane of the earth but active crossovers have the upper hand no doubt about it.
However 250w LF 75w HF continuous output ( which AVI are happy to imply ) I doubt very much.

I did state on on the original comaparrison that the hegel clearly had the more robust power supply but if only listening to music was the issue and not specs no one would have a problem with the dm10s imo unless your in a very large room perhaps. They go very loud and stay clear.

 

[avole]

translates to about 50w continuous into 8 ohm, which looks about right.. Note that, in an ideal world with a well-designed amp, that translates to 100w into 4 ohm.

Having read some of the above, it looks like some don't understand the imprtance of the heatsink, and why it is possible to draw some conclusions from the size. More power = more heat = larger heatsink, it's as simple as that, since the heatsink's role is to dissipate the heat.

Also note that a bass mid rated at 80w 6 ohm is not going to last long if being driven at 250w continuous and would quickly distort, as would your ears. I'm sure the AVI designer designs accordingly, it is the sales team that are deliberately trying to distort things.

 

[hg]

...the specs Event give for their Opals are roughly twice what AVI states for DM10s. Can they be correct? Interestingly they also have steep 8th order XOs.

http://www.eventelectronics.com/opal

The Opals have a larger 8" midwoofer with a continuous power handling of 240W compared to the DM10's 6.5" driver with a continuous power handling of 60W (from that of the standard driver - AVI's modified version may be slightly different). So a 250W amplifier looks about the right size for the Opals whereas 50W looks about the right size for the DM10. If the DM10 were to use a 250W amplifier it would need additional control circuitry to limit continuous output to something like 60W or else the driver would overheat and likely seize.

The 8th order on the Opal's is almost certainly because of the 1" tweeter and the low 1.6kHz crossover. This is really pushing the low frequency limits of what a 1" tweeter dome tweeter can handle when trying to keep up with an 8" driver. However it uses a waveguide which matches the directivity of the tweeter to that of the midwoofer in the crossover region and so the 8th order slope will not lead to a poor off-axis frequency response with a sharp change in level in the crossover region. It is the 8th order slope with a flat baffle that causes a deviation from what would generally be considered a more neutral response. But some people may like the effect..

 

[shadders]

the haters, are self motivated, be it for whatever reason. You are not providing a public service.

I would imagine that if the lies of AVI were so great and misleading Hi-fi Plus, Gramophone and way back What Hi-fi would have openly challenged this but in the reviews I've read it's not even been touched on.

At the end of the day people don't listen to ratings or specs. You don't have to listen to my system, I do... move on, try focusing on some other injustice, it's a pair of bloody speakers!

If a great injustice has been done then the publications mentioned above have failed. I think perhaps though they operate in real world terms more than the haters on here.

I suppose that's my point, in case I wasn't clear.

Hi,

People questioning published facts by AVI does not make them haters. The AVI owners (yourself excluded) have made statements regarding passive systems as broken, or those further up in this thread. They cannot prove their statements, so are just repeating what they are told by, I can only assume, other AVI owners, or AVI staff.

If AVI have misrepresented the facts (such as the amplifier power), then what else have they misrepresented?

It is not the function of the Hifi publications to correct injustices.

The Hifi press will review as seen, and if they happen to include measurements, will report these accurately. I have seen reports where they state the amplifier very much exceeds the stated specification, and others where they state that they only just meet the published specification.

So, if it is the AVI owners who denigrate passive speakers, use AVI published data/facts (which are in error, or are dubious) to claim that the AVI speakers are superior to passive speakers, then I contend that it is not the "haters" of AVI that are the problem, but the AVI owners who are in fact the "haters" of passive systems.

Regards,

Shadders.

SCM40A

Overview

New ATC designed and built dual suspension 25mm soft dome HF unit with precision alloy wave guide.ATC Soft Dome mid-range driver.ATC 164mm short coil bass driver.All drive units incorporate massive optimised motor assemblies.On-board grounded source 242 watt Class A/B Tri-amplifier.Active crossover filters and overload protection.

Drivers: HF ATC 25mm dual suspension Tweeter, Mid 75mm ATC Soft Dome, LF ATC 164mm SC Matched Response: ±0.5dB Frequency Response (-6dB): 48Hz-22kHz Dispersion: ±80° Coherent Horizontal, ±10° Coherent Vertical Max SPL: 112dB Crossover Frequencies: 380Hz & 3.5kHz Connectors: Male XLR Input sensitivity : 1V Filters : 4th Order critically damped with phase compensation. Overload Protection : Active FET momentary gain reduction. Fault Protection : DC fault protection and thermal trip. Fault indication on rear panel mounted LED. Amplifier Output: 150W LF, 60W MF, 32W HF Cabinet Dimensions (HxWxD): 980 x 370 x 344mm (inc. foot plinth & amp, spikes add 25mm to height, grill adds 34mm to depth) Weight: 36kg

Heres the specs for.the atc scm40 active Whats the difference in the way they state the power?

Hi,

Examining the LF driver power amplifier figure which is stated to be 150watts, I "expect" this to be R.M.S. value. Why? If you examine the website pictures you can see that the rear of the speaker has a heatsink which is approximately 300mm in length. This indicates that the amplifiers are rated as continuous powers. If you examine the AVI rear panel, there is no heatsink, as per the ATC's, yet the AVI has an extra 100W rated power above the 150W of the ATC's. Hmmmmm, something is amiss here?

Regards,

Shadders.

At what ohm is the power? Its not mentioned as in most active speakers.

Now lets get one thing clear: Atc is my favourite brand of speaker and im not doubting the power claims. Im just showing that most active specs only show the power in watts unlike passive amps. Thats all.

Hi,

Yes, but ATC are being truthful. This rating will be into 8ohms, which is the industry standard, or if not, at the nominal impedance of the LF driver.

Whatever the impedance stated, or not stated, you will be experiencing this power, if the driver allows. Continuously. If you really want to.

With the AVI website data, which states 250W for the DM 10, we don't know how long that 250W can be sustained. Under what conditions is the 250W available?

The fact that this impedance information is not stated, allows for false figures to be stated to provide a perceived superiority over other products. You are being duped.

Regards,

Shadders.

But when i compared my hegel (250w into 8ohms) I never felt the dm10s were lacking in power in relation to my amp. And the sound was clearer and less distorted.

We having another test in 2 weeks so we see again if i was correct. And we having more people so no chance to bs

Hi,

This issue is not about how they sound, relatively, but the claims of AVI on their web site, which are then used to denigrate passive systems, where the AVI statements of power amplifier capability is questioned.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[lpv]

AVI DM10 6.5" mid/bass driver is 5 Ohms and the amp produces 50 Volts and 10 Amp peaks so 500 Watts. Sensitivity is 87 db/W/M

can't handle that sh!t? or what?

 

[lpv]

precisely..

btw. if want to hear DM10's please let me know *smile*

 

[shadders]

Hi,

Whatever the power rating, and whatever the load, it is the continuous power that matters. I am very confident that the power stated by ATC is R.M.S., and continuous. Examine the back of the ATC speaker, and you can see the difference in heatsinking compared to the DM10.

You do not buy a 1kW heater that only produces 200watts continuous.

You do not buy a 700watts microwave oven whose maximum power is 140watts continuous as it may not cook your food correctly.

The same with amplifiers, it is continuous power that matters.

As I stated above, the 250watts quoted by AVI is in error, as it tells you nothing about the true capability of the amplifier. All they have done is stated a nice big number.

Regards,

Shadders.

i do believe the ATC figures, I'm just saying that I wouldn't be sure is was into a theoretical 8 ohms. I have ADM40 which are powerful and I'd expect the ATCs to be at least somewhere in the same region.

Hi,

Does not have to be 8ohms, but that is standard for amplifier manufacturers. Event have stated 5ohms, but have also stated the amplifier continuous power.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[drummerman]

...the specs Event give for their Opals are roughly twice what AVI states for DM10s. Can they be correct? Interestingly they also have steep 8th order XOs.

http://www.eventelectronics.com/opal

Hi,

We don't have Event owners on this forum claiming passive systems are broken, handicapped, or whose passive filters are power sapping.

If people quote figures that do not meet the industry standard for an amplifier power, or qualify the figures that they are quoting with load, waveform, duration, THD etc., then you must expect them to be challenged when they use those figures in their arguments.

Yes, but as AVI's power claims have been dismissed as impossible by forum members I wonder if those members would find Opal's claims just as rich as AVI's? And if not, wouldn't Opal's specs then support AVI's claims?

Hi,

No, people have not stated impossible, but have questioned that they are a continuous rating. Reponse to this is that it is peak, which should be translated to burst power. Peak implies divide by SQRT(2) to obtain continuous.

The AVI website states 250W, but omits to state the conditions for this figure. A cynical person may envisage that AVI want people to believe it is 250W contiuous, because it sounds like a nice large number and ia comparable to high power amplifiers.

Regards,

Shadders.

Every few months 'we' have a self appointed apostel of righteousness on here.

Seems there is a new one

What next?

Cables? Russ Andrews?

Yawn.

 

[shadders]

AVI DM10 6.5" mid/bass driver is 5 Ohms and the amp produces 50 Volts and 10 Amp peaks so 500 Watts. Sensitivity is 87 db/W/M

can't handle that sh!t? or what?

Hi,

You misunderstand a peak current capability to continuous power capability.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[bluedroog]

Has anyone got real experince of how the DM10s compare to the Opals in terms of performance putting specs aside? I did speak to one chap who had owned both and he was favourable about both but prefered the Opals by some distance. Curious as to what other think?

 

[shadders]

...the specs Event give for their Opals are roughly twice what AVI states for DM10s. Can they be correct? Interestingly they also have steep 8th order XOs.

http://www.eventelectronics.com/opal

Hi,

We don't have Event owners on this forum claiming passive systems are broken, handicapped, or whose passive filters are power sapping.

If people quote figures that do not meet the industry standard for an amplifier power, or qualify the figures that they are quoting with load, waveform, duration, THD etc., then you must expect them to be challenged when they use those figures in their arguments.

Yes, but as AVI's power claims have been dismissed as impossible by forum members I wonder if those members would find Opal's claims just as rich as AVI's? And if not, wouldn't Opal's specs then support AVI's claims?

Hi,

No, people have not stated impossible, but have questioned that they are a continuous rating. Reponse to this is that it is peak, which should be translated to burst power. Peak implies divide by SQRT(2) to obtain continuous.

The AVI website states 250W, but omits to state the conditions for this figure. A cynical person may envisage that AVI want people to believe it is 250W contiuous, because it sounds like a nice large number and ia comparable to high power amplifiers.

Regards,

Shadders.

Every few months 'we' have a self appointed apostel of righteousness on here.

Seems there is a new one

What next?

Cables? Russ Andrews?

Yawn.

Hi,

No, if the AVI owners continuously state passive systems are broken, handicapped, or the crossover filter is power sapping, to people who do not know any different, why should we allow those without the technical understanding to be duped by AVI owners?

If you go onto diynaudio website, or any other electronic website, you will get people wanting to help others and provide accurate information.

On what hifi forum, we have a collection of people purposefully misinforming newcomers to the benefit of one specific manufacturer.

I disagree with this, but rather than denigrate the person, as you have done, I challenge the facts stated where possible, to stop the misinformation.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[lpv]

AVI DM10 6.5" mid/bass driver is 5 Ohms and the amp produces 50 Volts and 10 Amp peaks so 500 Watts. Sensitivity is 87 db/W/M

can't handle that sh!t? or what?

Hi,

You misunderstand a peak current capability to continuous power capability.

Regards,

Shadders.

You run out of steam mate and you keep repeat yourself..

looks like now you have a mission to answer evey single entry..

MODERATORS - can we have this thread locked so shadders can have some fresh air?