AVI DM5

[nopiano]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match. With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion. Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates. We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones. Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep. Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

 

[luckylion100]

I certainly wouldn't mind to listen to them but I would have to sell my cyrus system to finance them, not something I'd look forward too. Certainly not without listening to them first.

I'd then would have to source a decent Pre-amp/DAC/Headphone amp with analogue in for my Vinyl.

One good thing is I still have a small, sealed sub which would probably complement them.

Is the dealer network expanding in the UK?

I'm still not in the 'in' crowd regarding AVI despite all these tongue in cheek murmurings of 'cult' but I'd imagine perhaps yes their dealer network will expand. There's apparently new ownership, suddenly examples of their speakers are finding their way out for review. Seems to me someone may be thinking of a more pro-active approach to marketing and distribution.... could be miles off though.

 

[steve_1979]

I'm still not in the 'in' crowd regarding AVI ...

I never realised there was an 'in' crowd.

Just lots of jokes about cults, AVI religion and the borg. No one actually takes this stuff seriously do they?

 

[bluedroog]

I'm very curious to try a pair, more so the 10s. I can see myself using a pair as a second system at some point, particularly as I may be working abroad at some point and they'd be great to take with me. At the moment I just have the need.

 

[shadders]

Shadders

I just happen to look at my pc and read your recent post....

God is it just me or is it that everything and i mean everything you post is soooooo boring your either analizing or reading really boring spec papers on speakers more so AVIs why dont you just listen to a pair of them and THEN critisise all you want.

Ive got to ask whats your hifi set-up.

Go on tell us is it an old Matsui from dixons i bet it is init..lol

Hi,

Yes, I am an engineer in a previous work life, but not chartered. I am responding to false technical statements used to backup subjective experiences. These have to be challenged with a structured argument.

I am NOT criticising the subjective listening experience. If people who have bought them like them, good for them. What should be challenged is pseudo-technical talk to backup the subjective experience.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[steve_1979]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match. With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion. Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates. We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones. Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep. Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

Exactly!

Thank you no piano.

 

[thewinelake.]

The problem will be pricing.

At the moment, they only have 1 or 2 dealers, and I suspect that their margins are pretty slim compared to what mainstream dealers expect. If AVI gave dealers the usual margins (which must be getting on for 50%) in order to allow discounts and still make profits, then the price must rise - and that would mean that the direct channel would have to rise as well.

Maybe now is the last chance to buy at under £2,000?

 

[steve_1979]

The problem will be pricing.

At the moment, they only have 1 or 2 dealers, and I suspect that their margins are pretty slim compared to what mainstream dealers expect. If AVI gave dealers the usual margins (which must be getting on for 50%) in order to allow discounts and still make profits, then the price must rise - and that would mean that the direct channel would have to rise as well.

Maybe now is the last chance to buy at under £2,000?

Apparently the two current dealers have been good friends of Ash for many years and only sell AVI speakers at much lower margins than would normally be usual.

 

[luckylion100]

a few more winky more faces *biggrin*

****** I thought this was it, my one chance to finally get into the 'in' crowd. .. *sad*

 

[spiny norman]

Apparently the two current dealers have been good friends of Ash for many years and only sell AVI speakers at much lower margins than would normally be usual.

Dealers really don't work like that: they have overheads to meet. Perhaps it's just that they have decent margins, which AVI is trousering on the speakers it sells direct, and they really should be much cheaper...

 

[Alberich]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match.  With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion.  Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates.  We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones.  Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep.  Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

Nobody is arguing about ohms, whether 4, 6 or 8.
I'm the only one who mentioned ohms and it was in context to an industry standard convo with shadders.
I was saying in the active market there's no real need for an ohm rating.
Nothing more.
Based your comment about ohms, i suspect you're skim reading. It just complicates things.
Read back and you will see you are misinterpreting the point.

 

[steve_1979]

a few more winky more faces *biggrin*

****** I thought this was it, my one chance to finally get into the 'in' crowd. .. *sad*

Sorry to disappoint you.

They're just speakers not the Holy Grail and Ash is just a normal guy not the Messiah (although he can be a very naughty boy).

 

[nopiano]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match. With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion. Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates. We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones. Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep. Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

Nobody is arguing about ohms, whether 4, 6 or 8. I'm the only one who mentioned ohms and it was in context to an industry standard convo with shadders. I was saying in the active market there's no real need for an ohm rating. Nothing more. Based your comment about ohms, i suspect you're skim reading. It just complicates things. Read back and you will see you are misinterpreting the point.

See posts 32 and 40, above, for example. And doubtless the other similar ones of recent days. We agree the impedance is a red herring. I'm saying so is the 'output' in watts.

 

[shadders]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match. With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion. Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates. We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones. Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep. Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

Hi,

I agree if it was a listening test only, so each individual subjective experience is ll that matters. The issue is that AVI owners (not all) have used pseudo-technical statements (power sapping crossover), dubious statements (250W amplifier with no qualification on what exactly this refers to), to argue why active speakers are better than passives.

We do need a comparison, where Hifi News could review and present the distortion measurements. If the DM10's excel in this domain, then why not publish the figures. They certainly advocate that their system has 200x to 300x more control over the driver than an equivalent amplifier and passive speaker, and publish this. So why not the exact details on THD, or the industry standard power amplifier specification etc. of their product?

Do you not think it is strange that they provide only those data aspects that benefits their design marketing, as I have stated above.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Alberich]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match.  With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion.  Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates.  We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones.  Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep.  Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

Nobody is arguing about ohms, whether 4, 6 or 8. I'm the only one who mentioned ohms and it was in context to an industry standard convo with shadders. I was saying in the active market there's no real need for an ohm rating. Nothing more. Based your comment about ohms, i suspect you're skim reading. It just complicates things. Read back and you will see you are misinterpreting the point.

See posts 32 and 40, above, for example.  And doubtless the other similar ones of recent days.  We agree the impedance is a red herring.  I'm saying so is the 'output' in watts.

The output in watts has relevance. Particularly so possible customers, buying blind, can make an informed judgment on whether the speakers will be suitable for certain rooms at certain volumes.

 

[shadders]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match. With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion. Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates. We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones. Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep. Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

Nobody is arguing about ohms, whether 4, 6 or 8. I'm the only one who mentioned ohms and it was in context to an industry standard convo with shadders. I was saying in the active market there's no real need for an ohm rating. Nothing more. Based your comment about ohms, i suspect you're skim reading. It just complicates things. Read back and you will see you are misinterpreting the point.

See posts 32 and 40, above, for example. And doubtless the other similar ones of recent days. We agree the impedance is a red herring. I'm saying so is the 'output' in watts.

Hi,

The impedance is not a red herring. The power statement for an amplifier is a useless statement unless it is referred to a load impedance. If you want to refer this to a speaker output, such as dBW SPL statement, then (I think) you will need to take into account the driver losses to determine how much power is actually transferred from electrical energy to sound/mechanicql energy.

Just stating that the amplifier is 250W is meaningless unless you know the load.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Alberich]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match.  With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion.  Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates.  We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones.  Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep.  Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

Nobody is arguing about ohms, whether 4, 6 or 8. I'm the only one who mentioned ohms and it was in context to an industry standard convo with shadders. I was saying in the active market there's no real need for an ohm rating. Nothing more. Based your comment about ohms, i suspect you're skim reading. It just complicates things. Read back and you will see you are misinterpreting the point.

See posts 32 and 40, above, for example.  And doubtless the other similar ones of recent days.  We agree the impedance is a red herring.  I'm saying so is the 'output' in watts.

Hi,

The impedance is not a red herring. The power statement for an amplifier is a useless statement unless it is referred to a load impedance. If you want to refer this to a speaker output, such as dBW SPL statement, then (I think) you will need to take into account the driver losses to determine how much power is actually transferred from electrical energy to sound/mechanicql energy.

Just stating that the amplifier is 250W is meaningless unless you know the load.

Regards,

Shadders.

You're certainly consistent Shadders I'll say that.
And not easily discouraged

 

[nopiano]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match. With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion. Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates. We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones. Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep. Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

Nobody is arguing about ohms, whether 4, 6 or 8. I'm the only one who mentioned ohms and it was in context to an industry standard convo with shadders. I was saying in the active market there's no real need for an ohm rating. Nothing more. Based your comment about ohms, i suspect you're skim reading. It just complicates things. Read back and you will see you are misinterpreting the point.

See posts 32 and 40, above, for example. And doubtless the other similar ones of recent days. We agree the impedance is a red herring. I'm saying so is the 'output' in watts.

The output in watts has relevance. Particularly so possible customers, buying blind, can make an informed judgment on whether the speakers will be suitable for certain rooms at certain volumes.

My point remains that the output in watts of the built-in amp is not relevant; the speaker output is. But how many (non-active) speakers state a maximum output in dB as opposed to a maximum power handling in watts? Very few.

 

[nopiano]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match. With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion. Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates. We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones. Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep. Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

Nobody is arguing about ohms, whether 4, 6 or 8. I'm the only one who mentioned ohms and it was in context to an industry standard convo with shadders. I was saying in the active market there's no real need for an ohm rating. Nothing more. Based your comment about ohms, i suspect you're skim reading. It just complicates things. Read back and you will see you are misinterpreting the point.

See posts 32 and 40, above, for example. And doubtless the other similar ones of recent days. We agree the impedance is a red herring. I'm saying so is the 'output' in watts.

Hi,

The impedance is not a red herring. The power statement for an amplifier is a useless statement unless it is referred to a load impedance. If you want to refer this to a speaker output, such as dBW SPL statement, then (I think) you will need to take into account the driver losses to determine how much power is actually transferred from electrical energy to sound/mechanicql energy.

Just stating that the amplifier is 250W is meaningless unless you know the load.

Regards,

Shadders.

We can agree that it is meaningless - regardless!

 

[shadders]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match. With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion. Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates. We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones. Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep. Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

Nobody is arguing about ohms, whether 4, 6 or 8. I'm the only one who mentioned ohms and it was in context to an industry standard convo with shadders. I was saying in the active market there's no real need for an ohm rating. Nothing more. Based your comment about ohms, i suspect you're skim reading. It just complicates things. Read back and you will see you are misinterpreting the point.

See posts 32 and 40, above, for example. And doubtless the other similar ones of recent days. We agree the impedance is a red herring. I'm saying so is the 'output' in watts.

Hi,

The impedance is not a red herring. The power statement for an amplifier is a useless statement unless it is referred to a load impedance. If you want to refer this to a speaker output, such as dBW SPL statement, then (I think) you will need to take into account the driver losses to determine how much power is actually transferred from electrical energy to sound/mechanicql energy.

Just stating that the amplifier is 250W is meaningless unless you know the load.

Regards,

Shadders.

You're certainly consistent Shadders I'll say that. And not easily discouraged

Hi,

Thank you. Yes, we cannot have people not understanding stuff. )

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[shadders]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match. With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion. Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates. We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones. Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep. Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

Nobody is arguing about ohms, whether 4, 6 or 8. I'm the only one who mentioned ohms and it was in context to an industry standard convo with shadders. I was saying in the active market there's no real need for an ohm rating. Nothing more. Based your comment about ohms, i suspect you're skim reading. It just complicates things. Read back and you will see you are misinterpreting the point.

See posts 32 and 40, above, for example. And doubtless the other similar ones of recent days. We agree the impedance is a red herring. I'm saying so is the 'output' in watts.

Hi,

The impedance is not a red herring. The power statement for an amplifier is a useless statement unless it is referred to a load impedance. If you want to refer this to a speaker output, such as dBW SPL statement, then (I think) you will need to take into account the driver losses to determine how much power is actually transferred from electrical energy to sound/mechanicql energy.

Just stating that the amplifier is 250W is meaningless unless you know the load.

Regards,

Shadders.

We can agree that it is meaningless - regardless!

Hi,

No, the AVI owners cannot use this number (250W) in their argument to support their statement on how much better the active speakers are than passives, and then complain when it comes under scrutiny and the way it is used by the AVI owners.

It is important to analyse the system.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Alberich]

Obviously the crux of the issue some people have with AVI is the ambiguity sourounding the 250W LF and 75W HF rating.
AVI are happy to imply it's continuous output which I wouldn't believe for a second.
Take for example Dynaudio x14a ;
The specified output for LF is 50W and HF 50W.
Dynaudio don't specify whether that's continuous or peak output but it's not implausible to assume continuous given the modest spec.
AVI's spec for DM10 seems outlandishly generous to the point of being fictitious if portrayed as continuous output yet some AVI owners flat out refuse to consider it a possible spoof.

 

[Alberich]

My point remains that the output in watts of the built-in amp is not relevant; the speaker output is.  But how many (non-active) speakers state a maximum output in dB as opposed to a maximum power handling in watts?  Very few.      

I agree. IMO stating the number of watts in an active speaker is largely pointless. They should just state how low they go.

Wether that volume is achieved by efficiency or brute force makes no difference to the end user.

 

Steve, with respect, stating the power output of the built in amplifiers ( in watts ) is entirely necessary.
Buyers need to make an informed choice on whether they are suitable for a particular room.
AVI's amplifiers are not immune to clipping.

 

[steve_1979]

My point remains that the output in watts of the built-in amp is not relevant; the speaker output is. But how many (non-active) speakers state a maximum output in dB as opposed to a maximum power handling in watts? Very few.

I agree. IMO stating the number of watts in an active speaker is largely pointless. They should just state how low they go.

Whether that volume is achieved by efficiency or brute force makes no difference to the end user.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Actually, regarding specs for AVI - or any other actives - I think we may be missing the point somewhat.

With a separate amp and speakers, we need to know the output, sensitivity, impedance and more to get a proper match.  With an active, all that matters is the maximum (speaker) output at a rated distortion.  Trouble is, we then can't compare that to separates.  We don't get combined measurements, so comparisons arent feasible, except by listening!

It doesn't matter if AVI DM5 is 20 watts into very sensitive speaker units, or 100w into very insensitive ones.  Only nerds like me might try to second guess the impact on the bass extension; but we simply need a decent anechoic sweep.  Arguments about 8 or 6 ohms are, to me, missing the point entirely.

Nobody is arguing about ohms, whether 4, 6 or 8. I'm the only one who mentioned ohms and it was in context to an industry standard convo with shadders. I was saying in the active market there's no real need for an ohm rating. Nothing more. Based your comment about ohms, i suspect you're skim reading. It just complicates things. Read back and you will see you are misinterpreting the point.

See posts 32 and 40, above, for example.  And doubtless the other similar ones of recent days.  We agree the impedance is a red herring.  I'm saying so is the 'output' in watts.

Hi,

The impedance is not a red herring. The power statement for an amplifier is a useless statement unless it is referred to a load impedance. If you want to refer this to a speaker output, such as dBW SPL statement, then (I think) you will need to take into account the driver losses to determine how much power is actually transferred from electrical energy to sound/mechanicql energy.

Just stating that the amplifier is 250W is meaningless unless you know the load.

Regards,

Shadders.

 We can agree that it is meaningless - regardless!  

The valid points you have been trying to make are understood by most.