auditioning in store, then buying elsewhere - ethical?

[basshead]

i have created this new topic as it is being discussed on another thread (concerning an order with superfi), it seems to be an interesting topic with lots of different views and worthy of a dedicated thread.

so, is auditioning in one store and then buying elsewhere unethical?

my self, i am really unsure where i stand on this. on the one hand i would really like to support small retailers, and can see why some people would have issues with the practice, but then again, are we not entitled to take advantage of a free service offered by a business? for example, is it also unethical to take the free alcohol samples at airports when you have no intention of buying the drink on offer? or is it unethical to take a test drive of a car at a showroom and then go and buy a second hand model of the car if you like it? surely the businesses involved have factored the cost of auditions into their business model, and part of that will be the anticipation that not everyone who auditions will buy anything.

the whole issue seems a bit of a mine field to me.

the advice given on this site by users and staff is to audition, audition, audition! so do those of you who take the it's 'unethical' stance (such as Andrew E) think that when buying second hand goods, that people shouldn't audition? because surely the only way to do so would be to use a store, where you will not buy from, which by your standards would be unethical.

what about hi fi stores which have no auditioning rooms/facilities? should no one buy from these stores? here it seems that the audition, audition, audition! advice is in conflict with the ethical implications of the main issue.

personally, i think that if on line retailers have an unfair advantage over retailers with a shop space, then this is an issue for the governments to fix, (i read on here somewhere that online retailers can avoid vat? and therefore have a price advantage? please correct me if i'm wrong here).

we live in a competitive, capitalist system. if this system allows us to audition in one place and buy elsewhere, are we not just using the system how it is designed, to achieve the best possible price for ourselves? we all have to live with the downsides of capitalism (certain unemployment in the system, getting into debt, some having lots while others have few) why is it then unethical if we use the system for our own advantage? is it not the system as a whole which is unethical?

i am in no way challenging anyone's view that it is unethical, or expecting any one to justify their ethical stance on any issue. as ethics are personal, there is not always a clear right or wrong, and i don't agree with attacking another persons ethical views, as that is a personal insult ( and against house rules. )

thanks

 

[Anonymous]

i dont think it's very nice auditioning with no intention of buying from the store providing the audition. i would call that unethical. some people would probably see it differently though.

 

[Helmut80]

this is an interesting topic as I am at the moment in the market for speakers that I couldn't afford new, but nevertheless wish to audition. I do feel bad, but with second hand there is no way around it (other than buying blind).

So I would say yes, generally speaking I would consider it 'unethical'. having said that, many things I do, i would consider unethical, the question is just what is the trade-off and where do you draw the line? Where one draws the line is of course also dependent on how fat one's pockets are.

I do also think that if we all buy online for 20% less, there won't be any places left to audition, with the exception of stores that start with speakers and amps in the low four figures. I would say that most people who spend 5k+ on a system will probably care more about good service over savings that if someone is in the market for a system in the 3 figures.

From what I see though, when it comes to speakers, the prices quoted online and in store are not that different (speaker specific). So if you haggle a bit in store you might well save more than when you buy something for 10% less online. As a consumer though, I want to spend as little as possible to achieve the best possible outcome. When I go to demo a product and I don't feel treated well or that the shop is making no effort whatsoever to listen to a reasonable offer< i have no problem taking my business elsewhere.

 

[The_Lhc]

I think you've kind of missed the point basshead, nobody's saying you can't try things in different stores as many stores will price match against other "real" retailers. The issue in question is getting a demo in a shop and then buying the good online at a price that a bricks and mortar seller can't hope to match, that's what we consider unethical.

But going to different stores to audition different combinations of kit and then choosing one shop to buy from is par for the course, after all you might be after a speaker and amp combo and can't get to test every combination you're interested in in one shop. So you go for different demos in different shops and then go for the one you like the best. Nothing wrong with that, just don't then buy the gear off the net for 20% less.

 

[DandyCobalt]

Stores with auditioning/demo facilities are fully aware of the marketplace that they are trading in. There is always a risk that a potential customer might demo products in their store, and then go away and buy them on the internet.

However, the opportunity to be in personal contact with a customer for a considerable period of time, discussing a shared passion or enthusiasm for music/film, and potential purchasing options, is a situation that the online retailer does not have.

If the former cannot convince the customer to buy from them, after demo'ing...discussing pros and cons...bright vs clinical...expensive dhmi cable vs tesco cable...favourite films...best subwoofer moments...aftercare service....their next upgrade... then they probably don't deserve the sale.

I would always prefer to buy from the same store that laboured to set up floorstanders with my choice of amp and CD player etc, unless they then said that they were out of stock and couldn't get hold of the item for 3 weeks or more.

There is a danger that Hi-fi shops might become like some guitar shops, which are in a similar position. The threatening "Don't touch that guitar till I've seen yer money" approach. However, from my recent experience (in this case SSAV in Sevenoaks for CM8s delivered next day in the snow and then CM1s to match) - they're not like that, and long may it remain so!!!

 

[Paul.]

basshead:
are we not entitled to take advantage of a free service offered by a business?

But as it is not a free service, In much the same way as your free mobile phone is not actually free, it is a subsidised service rolled in to the cost of the product. The reason it costs more than online is because the extra 10-20% pays for these services.

When you accept that nothing is free, the ethical implications become very simple.

 

[basshead]

the_lhc:I think you've kind of missed the point basshead, .

sorry, i did get that point, maybe the wording of my original post wasn't as clear as it should be. i was mainly referring to ordering online at a cheaper price.

I still don't know where i stand on this issue. but it is an interesting one indeed.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

I tell you what i did with my last purchase, i auditioned it in a shop, then bought it cheaper on the internet, then went back to the same shop where i auditioned it and asked them would they setup it up for me.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

I won't name names but I recently demo'd at a store and did not get a particularly good service. No additional combinations were offered or suggested. The next speaker up was suggested though! I then found a shop that has an online store. I had long conversations that were not pushy at all. They offered me a few options and I then bought. I don't think I was wrong. A few years ago I demo'd my RS6s at the same shop as above but a local one. They couldnt do enough for me and I bought them there and then. A few weeks later I took my brother-in-law along to the same store and he bought a whole new AV system (£2k+) after more excellent service.

 

[TheHomeCinemaCentre]

"Cheaper on the internet" is not always the case I may add. There are plenty of hot deals or threads that shout about an amazing deal online but more often that not these deals are better or just standard prices in store.

Buying different items from several different stores becuase they are the cheapest can work out more expensive than if you were to buy all of it from one place.

As for visiting a dealer for a demonstration and buying elsewhere - that is life. At least give the dealer the chance to compete though, they are normally offering far more than just a price.

 

[betamale]

I would be very reluctant to audition with no intention of buying. I do my research and give the store I am in a fair chance to work towards the online price, it is a question of the amount of effort they have put in and how much they will put in for the actual sale. I have paid hundreds more for equipment than I needed to purely because the store was the one that had put the effort into answering my questions.

I have also walked out of a store that was considerably cheaper because the manager (An old school mate) spend five minutes making fun of me now being bald.

Off subject I know, but it makes me feel better

 

[Deleted member 2457]

gel:I tell you what i did with my last purchase, i auditioned it in a shop, then bought it cheaper on the internet, then went back to the same shop where i auditioned it and asked them would they setup it up for me.

Probably should expand upon that, i had already bought alot of stuff from the shop already that year and contacted them prior to purchase to check with them about setting up a system and they said yes for a small fee, so that was fine. After setting it up they did ask where i got it and how much. So i did tell them roughly but i already knew they could have never competed with the deal, to be honest it would have probably been £1000 apart.

So they did understand, it was either that or not have a home cinema system, if the price was anywhere close then yes of course i would have done it the shop way again like i had previously.

 

[Anonymous]

I have never bought a piece of AV equipment online after demoing in store elsewhere. I would say that about 80% of the kit I have bought over the years has been from the same dealer. They are so helpful that if it's a piece of kit they sell, I will have a quick check online what the price levels are so I'm forearmed when I go in with a target price, they are usually there or there abouts, I have never felt the need to walk away.

If it is something they don't stock or have no chance in matching, I then look around for the best price that I can travel to see it in the flesh and hopefully collect. I don't think I've done to badly from this method over the years.

 

[matthewpiano]

I have no problem with the idea of auditioning at different stores and then buying from one of them (the one with the best combination of equipment and/or the best service), but I certainly look critically on using dealer facilities to audition and then buying online at the cheapest price. Said cheapest price rarely represents the best value for money when you take service, advice and support into account.

I purchased my Arcam gear from Audio T following auditions, and bought the Dali speakers from Richer Sounds following some excellent advice from someone I know there. The service I got from both shops could not have been replicated with an online retailer (and, as it happens, neither could the Arcam gear as their seperates aren't available online anyway).

 

[True Blue]

I demo instore, have a nice "afternoon" out. Listen to loads of different options, then go away think about it, read online reviews etc, before finally returning to the auditon shop my local Audio T.

Yes it may be "cheaper" on the internet, but I can walk in and discuss things with my dealer, who now knows me. We both excitedly listen to new equipment, even though he knows I am not in the market for a power amp upgrade etc, but just a shared love of music.

My recent dealings with them was that I bought a Rega White belt from an authorised Rega distributer on t'internet. My turntable started to make "wowing" noises, so I popped in and asked them if they minded having a look (i was willing to pay for service).

They looked at it checked the speed etc etc, asked for a reciept of the item (not bought from them) and got their Rega rep to bring a new one down to replace the other, which they then fitted for no charge.

The only reason this was done was because of the relationship already formed.

That level of service and experience is hard to replicate on the internet, so personally I dont mind paying a few quid extra to get the better service / aftermarket care.

 

[simon3102000]

It could work in the shops favour, it gets people in the shop and if the sales guy is good and knows he's stuff the customer may be inclined to buy from them. Also they may get a lot of impulse sales ie while I'm here ill picj up some cable and some interconnects etc or thtas a good deal on that amp, cd and speaker deal ill take that. Yeah most will prob go away and look for something cheaper online but not always.

 

[Anonymous]

No it is not. Will kill completely the highstreet shops leaving only on line. On line is great for lots of purchases that have required no intellect/expertise input from a third party.

Imagine if that happened to your doctor. All you would have left is trying to make an on line diagnosis. Then hoping you order the correct treatment.

Not somewhere I want to go to.

 

[plastic penguin]

basshead:

i have created this new topic as it is being discussed on another thread (concerning an order with superfi), it seems to be an interesting topic with lots of different views and worthy of a dedicated thread.

so, is auditioning in one store and then buying elsewhere unethical?

my self, i am really unsure where i stand on this. on the one hand i would really like to support small retailers, and can see why some people would have issues with the practice, but then again, are we not entitled to take advantage of a free service offered by a business? for example, is it also unethical to take the free alcohol samples at airports when you have no intention of buying the drink on offer? or is it unethical to take a test drive of a car at a showroom and then go and buy a second hand model of the car if you like it? surely the businesses involved have factored the cost of auditions into their business model, and part of that will be the anticipation that not everyone who auditions will buy anything.

the whole issue seems a bit of a mine field to me.

the advice given on this site by users and staff is to audition, audition, audition! so do those of you who take the it's 'unethical' stance (such as Andrew E) think that when buying second hand goods, that people shouldn't audition? because surely the only way to do so would be to use a store, where you will not buy from, which by your standards would be unethical.

what about hi fi stores which have no auditioning rooms/facilities? should no one buy from these stores? here it seems that the audition, audition, audition! advice is in conflict with the ethical implications of the main issue.

personally, i think that if on line retailers have an unfair advantage over retailers with a shop space, then this is an issue for the governments to fix, (i read on here somewhere that online retailers can avoid vat? and therefore have a price advantage? please correct me if i'm wrong here).

we live in a competitive, capitalist system. if this system allows us to audition in one place and buy elsewhere, are we not just using the system how it is designed, to achieve the best possible price for ourselves? we all have to live with the downsides of capitalism (certain unemployment in the system, getting into debt, some having lots while others have few) why is it then unethical if we use the system for our own advantage? is it not the system as a whole which is unethical?

i am in no way challenging anyone's view that it is unethical, or expecting any one to justify their ethical stance on any issue. as ethics are personal, there is not always a clear right or wrong, and i don't agree with attacking another persons ethical views, as that is a personal insult ( and against house rules. )

thanks

A couple of points: yes it is unethical to audition at a retail outlet and then buy the same item a little cheaper. Wrong!

The other point is if you want to buy second hand, you can audition at the bigger outlets and you [usually] get a warranty. Yes, you can get items a bit cheaper on auction sites, but you get a reaasurance if you approach a retailer.

Most decent retailers have s/hand or ex-dem stuff, and with the some of the bigger ones they can even transfer the item to your nearest branch.

IMO, it's a no brainer.

 

[XMB]

Maybe it is time for the equipment manufacturers to pay a store to display and demo their products?

If not the internet may kill off all but very specialist stores and more high value equipment may be very difficult to market.

When a prospective buyer enters a store with a full range of products that can be demonstrated there is a higher chance of educating them in the appreciation of better quality products. This can only be good for manufacturers as it enables them to develop 'high end' products that will give them better profit margins rather than selling cheap in volume.

This could be taken to the point where the store actually sells nothing! It is just a place to come and see the goods and play with them. Free to then go home and buy at the best price they can find on the internet!

 

[Anonymous]

Personally I`ve allways bought and tried to support my local Hifi dealer who I`ve maintained an excellent relationship with for over 30years , and they can`t do enough for me as a customer when ever I`ve visited even , when gear has gone wrong or if I just bobbed in for a browse.

To me It`s all down to attitude of how I`m treated as a customer when I walk through the door ,saving twenty or thirty quid else where is irrelivent when I`m looking to purchase anything.

on the other side of the coin It must be really fustrating for the dealer who puts the effort into demoing kit , spending time with a customer ,maintaining the right attitude towards the potential buyer only for them to walk out the door to go order the stuff online for the sake of a few quid , that must be really fustrating.

Same with buying a car... it took me several visits to different dealers buying a particular brand of car , even though my current dealer is usually slightly more expensive ..... in the long term , the service Ive received from them (any problems have been sorted out quickly and efficiently) and has definetely been worth the extra Ive forked out just for the good service alone.... and have since purchased 4 new cars from them in the last 12 years

Surely its about good service ...NOT saving a few quid

Jotaboy

 

[basshead]

jotaboy:
Surely its about good service ...NOT saving a few quid

It may depend on your financial situation, and how important saving that few quid is.

for example, I have recently bought some new dj gear, for which i have been saving for over 18 months. that was 18 months of no alcohol, very few nights or any meals out, and virtually no treats. My local DJ store had all the gear i wanted, and i went there to try it out, ask questions ect. even after negotiating a price in store to the point where the shop owner said it was his final offer, i could save £300 by buying it online.

£300 is a months rent. As much as i want to support my local dj store, it would have been financially stupid on my part to spend a months rent extra on my set up when i didnt have to.

i do however buy vinyl records from that store on a continuing basis, when i could get them cheaper online, so do not feel guilty about getting a 'free' audition/ try out.

is it unfair on the dj store owner that he couldnt compete with on line prices? probably yes (but not my fault)

was it un ethical of me to buy online? No, not in my opinion.

maybe such good ethics is preserved for the financially well off only.

 

[chris hollands]

I think sometimes it is down to more than what the bottom line is on an item, other factors for me come into the equation.

I just purchased Monitor Audios RX6AV12 and an amplifier from sevenoaks and got a 20 % discount and buy now pay next year without even asking !!!

I spend 3-4 hours a day surfing the web in the interest of my Home Cinema fad and could not have touched that deal anywhere on line,

Factor in the day and a half spent demo`ing gear with sevenoaks before making a decision and it is a no brainer.

However i did demo an alternative system with Audio T and could only buy from one of them,!! felt really guilty about that as both guys in both shops were really helpful.

If the on-line retailer was a lot cheaper than a store i would buy it blind on the back of reviews and forums, but i sell cars and hate being used just for demo purposes....

 

[marou]

If you feel uncomfortable doing it, it's wrong - that's what your conscience is for. I did it once and felt deeply ashamed. If money is tight buy off e-bay and you can get your money back (nearly)

 

[audioaffair]

As a store obviously we'd be unhappy to learn a customer had booked a demo with the intention of buying elsewhere if they were happy with the demo.

Principally, it's worth asking the store beforehand if they can match the better deal before going ahead with the demo. You may be happy to find they can match it anyway so you'll have the convenience of demming and buying from the same place if you're happy.

The overall issue however may be more deep rooted in what you feel are your personal ethics rather than anything else and applies to lots of things in life - taking more than one of a sample, going for a test drive with no intention of buying etc.

Personally I prefer to be as upfront and fair as possible if people are giving me their time and feel time spent receiving a service from a business or even someone spending their time with me in a larger store is a privilege.

 

[Anonymous]

What will happen is that the good manufactures will tell their dealers and distributors that all prices displayed on the internet must be the same, emphasise on good because simply the dealers will stop selling stuff that is sold cheap on the internet, it is also devalues your brand and it's second hand value.

Most dealers can smell a rat any way.