auditioning in store, then buying elsewhere - ethical?

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:
Buckshar:it depends on price differences too

...which have no bearing on the ethics of the matter.

No, except they put a price on your ethics. How much would it cost you to abandon your ethics?

Some people can't afford morals. (Is that from Pygmalion/My fair lady?)

 

[basshead]

i just read something which puts another slant on this ethics thing for me.

my university has been part of a competition to design an application for Samsung Smart TV Challenge. one of my friends submitted one which allows different TV's in the house to be in synch, so what is played on one will play on another in the same house (dvd's ect)

here is an extract from the rules and conditions: http://www.samsungsmarttvchallenge.eu/info/rules-uk#entries

32. All participants hereby provide a non-exclusive, royalty-free, irrevocable, perpetual, transferable licence to the Promoter to use the Content submitted for any purpose, including without limitation for advertising the Promoter's products. The participant hereby waives all moral rights they have in the Content submitted to the fullest extent permitted by law.

''waives all moral rights'' - so it seems Samsung doesn't care about ethics or morals. if businesses take such a stance then so should customers.

 

[Andrew Everard]

basshead:so it seems Samsung doesn't care about ethics or morals. if businesses take such a stance then so should customers.

I don't see how this is different from the main debate we have been having here: you make a choice whether or not to enter the competition based on whether or not you accept those conditions.

Mind you, as a student you might be expected to look up the meaning of 'moral rights' in terms of copyright law, rather than making what is a somewhat ill-informed statement.

 

[basshead]

Andrew Everard:
basshead:so it seems Samsung doesn't care about ethics or morals. if businesses take such a stance then so should customers.

I don't see how this is different from the main debate we have been having here: you make a choice whether or not to enter the competition based on whether or not you accept those conditions.

Mind you, as a student you might be expected to look up the meaning of 'moral rights' in terms of copyright law, rather than making what is a somewhat ill-informed statement.

I know what 'moral rights' refers to in copyright law. part of it is the right of attribution. so the winner of this competition has signed away their right to say that the idea was even theirs, Samsung can claim the idea as their own. this just seems so wrong and unfair to me. fine they give a prize as payment for using the idea, but to deny the creator the moral rights to their work seems too far, and unethical to me. i doubt many of the people who entered the competition knew this. We have just had a debate about just this in uni today, 3 law lecturers took part, all agreeing that it is not even possible to assign such rights to someone else, but it is possible to agree not to inforce them. all agreed that Samsung has questionable ethics in this instance.

the point i am making is, big businesses will use the law (a system) to gain as much competitive and financial edge as they possibly can. in this instance it is Samsung, a brand which is common place in audio visual stores, the very type this debate has been about.

this is how business works, it will use the law and the system it operates into every extent for it's own advantage. I think that individuals within that market should also be able to use the same system for their own advantage without being branded as un-ethical.

if the system is unethical in nature, then brand the creators of that system as unethical. don't give that burden to the individual who is just trying to get by the best they can in a difficult world where money is tight.

 

[basshead]

Andrew Everard:
basshead:so it seems Samsung doesn't care about ethics or morals. if businesses take such a stance then so should customers.

I don't see how this is different from the main debate we have been having here: you make a choice whether or not to enter the competition based on whether or not you accept those conditions.

just as hi-fi and av stores have a choice about weather or not to enter and compete in a industry based on the conditions of that market. they choose to have demo rooms, so they accept the reality of what comes with them

 

[Andrew Everard]

I'm not sure even hi-fi and av stores have a choice about the weather.

 

[basshead]

Andrew Everard:I'm not sure even hi-fi and av stores have a choice about the weather.

would be great if they did. ''buy a new set of speakers and get a week of guaranteed sunshine for free''

 

[Andrew Everard]

basshead:the point i am making is, big businesses will use the law (a system) to gain as much competitive and financial edge as they possibly can.

The cads!

basshead:this is how business works, it will use the law and the
system it operates into every extent for it's own advantage.

Yes, I know, you just said that. Just saying the same thing again in slightly different words doesn't make the point any stronger.

basshead:I think
that individuals within that market should also be able to use the same
system for their own advantage without being branded as un-ethical.

I'm not sure what system you mean. Your essays must be a riot to read.

basshead:if
the system is unethical in nature, then brand the creators of that
system as unethical.

See, there you go again - just repeating yourself.

basshead:don't give that burden to the individual who is
just trying to get by the best they can in a difficult world where
money is tight.

Ah right, small oppressed individual with limited resources fighting the system. I see. You might as well say that ram-raiding is an expression of the struggle against the capitalist machine.

 

[The_Lhc]

How does the perceived ethics or morals of a multi-national manufacturer have any bearing on how consumers should treat small, independent hi-fi stores?

 

[Anonymous]

Personally I would not demo if I had no intention of buying from said store. That said I have every intention of getting the best price I can, that's how business works. I would certainly value the relationship with the dealer, I had a very good chat with a guy at Audio - T today and that to me has a value, so I would most likely buy from them at a higher price than I could get elsewhere. In my experience stores can sell at the same price as any on-line retailer, you just have to barter with them!

As a side note I'm the technical manager of an adhesive firm and we supply adhesives to some audio companies.

We have developed adhesives to overcome problems that these companies are having. We make no charge for the expensive development with the hope that the company will then buy from us. In some cases companies respect what you have done for them and will buy your adhesive regardless of price. These customers are few and far between. Other companies take your product and give it to a competitor to reverse engineer and then buy if from them at lower price... If you are lucky you can retain the business by reducing your own price and foregoing the cost of the development. This happens all the time, that's business for you. It happens in all businesses. The clever businesses, the more successful businesses pay less for their materials and therefore can make more profit or sell their products for less money, that's the world we live in!

 

[Ajani]

IMO, it is unethical to audition in a store and then buy online (because the price is cheaper)...

1) Your inability/unwillingness to pay the difference between the store price and online price, has nothing to do with ethics. HiFi is a luxury, not a necessity. So if you can't afford it, buy something cheaper (or don't buy at all). If you were literally starving and stole a piece of bread, then you could probably make an argument about price and ethics, but not in the case of HiFi... In HiFi it's just justification made for acting unethically.

2) The point of online is lower prices and in-home-audition... So buy it blind, audition in your home and send it back if you don't like it... No need to audition anything in a store first...

3) The point of buying used is much lower prices and the fact that you can audition in home.. If you don't like it, you can probably resell it for exactly what you paid (sometimes even more if you shop carefully)... So once again, no need to audition in store first...

 

[basshead]

the_lhc:How does the perceived ethics or morals of a multi-national manufacturer have any bearing on how consumers should treat small, independent hi-fi stores?

because i believe that the fate of small hi fi stores lies in the hands of their big suppliers and the relationship/arrangements they have with these hi fi stores.

 

[The_Lhc]

basshead:
the_lhc:How does the perceived ethics or morals of a multi-national manufacturer have any bearing on how consumers should treat small, independent hi-fi stores?
because i believe that the fate of small hi fi stores lies in the hands of their big suppliers and the relationship/arrangements they have with these hi fi stores.

And? Whether that's true or not, do you think people are going to blame an independent hi-fi store because a major TV manufacturer has slightly questionable terms and conditions in an obscure competition? Or more likely, if they know anything about it at all and are sufficiently bothered, won't they just avoid that manufacturer and buy a different brand from the same retailer?

Blaming a retailer for something a manufacturer does is sheer nonsense and I don't know anyone daft enough to think like that.

 

[Anonymous]

Very difficult this one probably a lot to do with the economic world we live in. Lets say you were on a business trip and went in to the local hi fi store to kill a bit of time before your next meeting. Lo and behold they have got the amp that you have always wanted, you really want to hear it and so they set it up using the same components that you have at home. 1 hour later you are very pleased with the results and you are going to buy but jimmy who owns the hi fi store that you have been buying all your kit from for the last 20 years had promised you earlier on in the week that he would be getting the same amp in at the end of next month and the price he would be asking would be about 10% or £45 more than the demo guy is asking. Forget ethics, if it was me then jimmy would be getting my cash and i would not feel bad about auditioning. If you want a new car do you buy from the first dealer you visit because he was a great guy, answered all your questions, let you test drive every car you asked for or do you do your homework, go round a few more dealers and get the best price? Unethical ?

 

[Frank Harvey]

basshead:they choose to have demo rooms, so they accept the reality of what comes with them
I disagree - they're a necessity - we have to deal with the 'reality' by default. if you walked into a store looking to buy a system, and they had no demo rooms so you couldn't audition, what would you think? "oh, they must be really hit hard by the drawbacks of having demo rooms".
I'm not saying that the demo rooms should only be used by those intending to purchase, but they shouldn't really be 'hogged' by those who know they have no intention of buying from that retailer and are looking to buy used or off the Bay.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Ajani:The point of online is lower prices and in-home-audition... So buy it blind, audition in your home and send it back if you don't like it... No need to audition anything in a store first...
I don't think the point of a website is to use it as a means of auditioning. The law states that you have reasonable amount of time to inspect the goods you've purchased. Goods, when the law was set up, would've encompassed products 'generally' bought online. It's just unfortunate that in the audio sector of the retail market, this has been exploited by those who feel it ethical to order a product 'just so they can try it out', again, maybe with no intention of actually buying. This just means that retailers get more returns than they should, and could put small companies in jeopardy if they're having to order non stock items only for large amounts to be returned.

My own personal opinion, as a concumer, is that it shouldn't be possible to send items back for absolutely any reason, as this will be abused. Some people may end up innocently purchasing a 'new' product that has been returned by another unscrupulous individual, if purchased from a retailer that engages in that practice. Surely anyone buying online will have done their homework about the product they're purchasing and will be 99% certain of their purchase when they make it, in which case it would be unlikely to for it to be returned unless it has a major issue for the buyer.

Like I said, just my own personal opinion, and not that of my employer, or myself as an employee. I would feel the same even if I had no ties with the retail trade.

 

[Ajani]

FrankHarveyHiFi:Ajani:The point of online is lower prices and in-home-audition... So buy it blind, audition in your home and send it back if you don't like it... No need to audition anything in a store first...I don't think the point of a website is to use it as a means of auditioning. The law states that you have reasonable amount of time to inspect the goods you've purchased. Goods, when the law was set up, would've encompassed products 'generally' bought online. It's just unfortunate that in the audio sector of the retail market, this has been exploited by those who feel it ethical to order a product 'just so they can try it out', again, maybe with no intention of actually buying. This just means that retailers get more returns than they should, and could put small companies in jeopardy if they're having to order non stock items only for large amounts to be returned.My own personal opinion, as a concumer, is that it shouldn't be possible to send items back for absolutely any reason, as this will be abused. Some people may end up innocently purchasing a 'new' product that has been returned by another unscrupulous individual, if purchased from a retailer that engages in that practice. Surely anyone buying online will have done their homework about the product they're purchasing and will be 99% certain of their purchase when they make it, in which case it would be unlikely to for it to be returned unless it has a major issue for the buyer. Like I said, just my own personal opinion, and not that of my employer, or myself as an employee. I would feel the same even if I had no ties with the retail trade.

Perhaps your online situation in the UK is a bit different from the sites in the US I'm used to seeing... Which generally encourage a 30 day in home trial... Especially brands who sell direct online - some even offer 60 day in home trials...

 

[Frank Harvey]

A brand that only sells direct online would have to offer an extended returns policy, otherwise they'd sell nothing! Who'd take the chance otherwise?

I suppose it's a little different in the US as here, almost every store is accessible in a few hours drive (in theory!), whereas in the US it could be 6 hours drive to the next major town

 

[Anonymous]

Working in a large electrical retailer, I do come across a fair number of people who come in to the store but fully intend to buy online. Whether or not it bothers me depends on a couple of things, but I would imagine it would be much more of a concern to me if I owned the shop or if it was a smaller business.

But I don't think it's ethical at all. If I were in the market for something I would tell the shop what I was interested in, how much I've seen it for online and ask them what price they would be able to offer me. If they offered a price I would be happy to pay, I'd then start getting the stuff demonstrated. If I knew full well that I wasn't going to buy anything because I don't want to pay the extra, then I wouldn't abuse the service on offer.

At our shop, some people will ask straight away and then leave if we can't match a web price. Some people will go through the whole process of getting somebody to advise, set up demos and suggest alternatives knowing full well that I won't be able to match the price Amazon is selling at. Some people will happily take the advice and spend the money in store. It's not the end of the world for me as an employee of a big store but I can imagine that being harmful to smaller stores.

Also, I would agree with FrankHarveyHiFi about returning goods for no reason because what is the retailer supposed to do with the item? Presumably package it back up and sell it again, but they're not going to label it as used. I wouldn't be happy receiving something that I thought was new if somebody had essentially used it for a home demo and then sent it back.

 

[Anonymous]

Ethics aside, a good dealer can help you save a lot of money and time by preventing you from buying the wrong stuff, selling and rebuying etc....

I don't think of it as a one time audition/purchase thing, more of a building a relationship thing and steering you along to the right system, with plenty of home demos along the way and across multiple systems over the years.

Sure you might SHBE ('shop here buy elsewhere') once, but what are you going to do the next time? It's a small world.

So, on one side, let's keep ethics and morality out of it. SHBE isn't good for you either.

I woud also ideally like to see more arguments for supporting your local dealer that aren't about ethics.

 

[the record spot]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
I don't think the point of a website is to use it as a means of auditioning. The law states that you have reasonable amount of time to inspect the goods you've purchased. Goods, when the law was set up, would've encompassed products 'generally' bought online. It's just unfortunate that in the audio sector of the retail market, this has been exploited by those who feel it ethical to order a product 'just so they can try it out', again, maybe with no intention of actually buying. This just means that retailers get more returns than they should, and could put small companies in jeopardy if they're having to order non stock items only for large amounts to be returned.

My own personal opinion, as a concumer, is that it shouldn't be possible to send items back for absolutely any reason, as this will be abused. Some people may end up innocently purchasing a 'new' product that has been returned by another unscrupulous individual, if purchased from a retailer that engages in that practice. Surely anyone buying online will have done their homework about the product they're purchasing and will be 99% certain of their purchase when they make it, in which case it would be unlikely to for it to be returned unless it has a major issue for the buyer.

Like I said, just my own personal opinion, and not that of my employer, or myself as an employee. I would feel the same even if I had no ties with the retail trade.

The point of the DSRs is to encourage confidence in online and other means of distance retailing and go far enough to protect both the retailer as well as the buyer.

Article 3.58 on page 28 (here: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf) clearly states that customers must take reasonable care of the goods and if that involves unpacking, removing the goods and trying them out, they have not breached their duty to take care of the goods. If those goods are mishandled, no refund is due by the retailer to the customer.

I should add, you guys have it relatively easy compared to companies who sell DIY assembly furniture - the customer can build the thing, and assuming no damage is done, can still then return the item or arrange for its pickup.

Your issue about the DSRs being abused applies in exactly the same way as an instore demo, where a buyer can come in, have a chat, a nice cup of tea or coffee, take up an hour and walk away to buy online, or haggle a price downwards against an online price - some will absolutely abuse that to the nth degree. Your choice then is to cut a deal or walk away. I'd rather do what Peter Tyson's do, who I tihnk changed their online policy, still offer a 14 day return period and no questions are asked. Fair play to them. One or two others are currently openly flouting the DSRs (no names, no pack drill) but they simply lose the business - a situation I assume they are happy with.

 

[the record spot]

MoData:
Ethics aside, a good dealer can help you save a lot of money and time by preventing you from buying the wrong stuff, selling and rebuying etc....

I don't think of it as a one time audition/purchase thing, more of a building a relationship thing and steering you along to the right system, with plenty of home demos along the way and across multiple systems over the years.

Sure you might SHBE ('shop here buy elsewhere') once, but what are you going to do the next time? It's a small world.

So, on one side, let's keep ethics and morality out of it. SHBE isn't good for you either.

I woud also ideally like to see more arguments for supporting your local dealer that aren't about ethics.

It's only good if the dealer has the range of kit that will do that. If they don't, you'll look elsewhere. There's a couple of excellent shops here that I really rate, but haven't bought from either (The Home Cinema Centre and Loud and Clear) but both have great staff who don't mind you dropping by and spending a few minutes going through the options. I typically have a good idea and am pretty focused on what I need, but it's good to have a few alternatives pointed out.

 

[El Hefe]

I personally feel that it all depends on your intention. If you stepped in a hifi shop with the intention to do what the question is asking, then its unethical. However, if you stepped into a hifishop with the pure intention of purchasing the product after demoing but for whatever reason, you decided not to buy it from that dealer, I would say its OK. There are a lot of factors that could change one's mind - dealer's attitude, pricing, specific preference, unable to do home demo etc or even simply due to your own mood at that time.

I have just experienced a pushy dealer who gave me the remark of - 'I would like to close out my Jan sales target (it was on 31st jan)'. I instantly walked out of the demo room without saying a word.

My experience purchasing the ProAc D18s - the dealer wanted to close the deal so much that he was already carting out the speakers from his store room when I have not evensaid yes. I have repeatedly mentioned to him that I am concern that the D18s will not match my MF amps (the shop demo was with Naim) but it fell on deaf ears I suppose. So I walked out and went to another dealer whom not only offered home demo, plus cheaper from the previous shop.

Some hifi shop also does not keep stock. I am the type that on a particular day that I want to purchase an item, and the hifi shop says to me that he will bring in the stock the next day, it just kills my mood. If I have to drive to his shop again, might as well I spend the time, fuel and parking fee looking for a cheaper price.

I have also experienced of paying more than market price but felt really satisfied because of how the dealer treated me.

 

[bigblue235]

El Hefe:I personally feel that it all depends on your intention. If you stepped in a hifi shop with the intention to do what the question is asking, then its unethical. However, if you stepped into a hifishop with the pure intention of purchasing the product after demoing but for whatever reason, you decided not to buy it from that dealer, I would say its OK.

Yup, agreed. If you give the retailer a chance at the sale, fair enough.

I work in retail (not hi-fi/AV) and have experienced a variety of outcomes from people coming into the shop with no initial intention to buy. Sometimes, if everything goes well, the stars align, and the customer is in a particularly good mood, they will buy from you in the end. Other times they'll still go elsewhere, but if you've done your job properly and they've been impressed on their initial visit they may come back another time. You just have to try to make the most of someone being in your store, regardless of their intentions, as every person is a prospective future customer.

However, when someone says to you, after a demo "Oh, all your staff are really nice, you've been so helpful and your demo was great, but... (sheepishly) I'm afraid I can't buy as I've actually got vouchers for (competitor)" you can't help but feel a little bit annoyed. And it gets even worse when you ask them why they're taking advantage of your facilities instead of the other retailer's and they reply "Well, y'see, they don't actually stock this model, so they would have to make a special order, and as it's a special order I would have to pay up-front with no chance of a demo or cancelling...". Grrr. That is a little too cheeky for me

But hey, this is the way it is in retail at the mo. So, ethical or not, you just have to put up with it and make the most of it. As horrifying as it may sound to certain members, I love working in retail. I get a buzz out of helping people, and it's fantastic when a customer returns to the shop to tell you they love what they've bought. That gives me a lot of satisfaction. Some of my buddies have to put up with far more stressful stuff in their jobs, for far less job satisfaction. They deserve their bigger pay packets, as they're miserable Mon-Fri! I'm happy all week, so if all I need to tolerate is a few time-wasters, then I can live with that.