v1c:I'm not there for the retailer i'm there for the product. If the retailer meets my needs selling the product they get my business. It is not up to me to worry about prices they are charging.
fair enough..
fair enough..
v1c:There is no ethical dilemma in this situation. The retailer is also the face of the brands sold , it is where you can go and see what you are interested in foremost not to give them business.
All of which would be fine if the manufacturers paid the retailers to act as a showroom, to compensate them for the lack of sales.
All of which would be fine if the manufacturers paid the retailers to act as a showroom, to compensate them for the lack of sales.
one of my local retailers - I can't remember which one - offered me over the phone "internet price match" but would refuse to do a demo, or in-store standard price but I get the luxury of a demo
not sure in my head if thats fair or not - I can see where the retailer is coming from - but it can make for one very expensive demo...
not sure in my head if thats fair or not - I can see where the retailer is coming from - but it can make for one very expensive demo...
So they won't receive commission/bonus from manufacture on sales achieved ?. Again it's not my concern buying the product is it.
No, retailers don't get paid by manufacturers for each sale they make. But as you say, not your problem, until there aren't any retailers there to act as showrooms for your internet purchases...
It a tough world i'm afraid.
This is why magazine's such as yourself come in handy can help reduce the amount of demo's required or even needed.
This is why magazine's such as yourself come in handy can help reduce the amount of demo's required or even needed.
I wouldn't ever say the opinion of a magazine could replace the requirement or need (if there's a difference) for an audition before buying.
unless you have hours and hours to test properly, and compare with lots of different av amps - you could argue that a magazine review is better than an in-store demo
how many hours would it take to say go into a shop, listen to 5 av amps, test all their features and relative SQ -and come to a conclusion ? which is exactly what magazines and online reviews do
I'd only buy locally if given an option to home demo now- as the demos I have had in the past, and then gone and bought that product have often sounded completely different at home - in my room, with my speakers
yes you can take your speakers to the retailer (mind you with av ... 7 !! lol - so not practicle) - but still doesn't translate to how it will sound in a non-demo room
hence why I think home demos are very important
how many hours would it take to say go into a shop, listen to 5 av amps, test all their features and relative SQ -and come to a conclusion ? which is exactly what magazines and online reviews do
I'd only buy locally if given an option to home demo now- as the demos I have had in the past, and then gone and bought that product have often sounded completely different at home - in my room, with my speakers
yes you can take your speakers to the retailer (mind you with av ... 7 !! lol - so not practicle) - but still doesn't translate to how it will sound in a non-demo room
hence why I think home demos are very important
also there are a lot and I mean a LOT of variables that make AV amp comparative demos quite difficult - I'd guess
(1) is Room EQ on /off - were mics in right places when EQ was setup etc etc
(2) are crossovers on the receivers being tested all set to same ? this can make quite a different "flavour" to the sound
(3) what sound modes engaged
(4) is subwoofer volume set completely accurately - a few dB difference on this channel can make the same system sound very different
etc etc etc
now a competent retailer should get all of the above relatively set from one av amp to another - but if you're not reallly savvy with the product in the first place it would be hard to check.
(1) is Room EQ on /off - were mics in right places when EQ was setup etc etc
(2) are crossovers on the receivers being tested all set to same ? this can make quite a different "flavour" to the sound
(3) what sound modes engaged
(4) is subwoofer volume set completely accurately - a few dB difference on this channel can make the same system sound very different
etc etc etc
now a competent retailer should get all of the above relatively set from one av amp to another - but if you're not reallly savvy with the product in the first place it would be hard to check.
v1c:
There is no ethical dilemma in this situation. The retailer is also the face of the brands sold , it is where you can go and see what you are interested in foremost not to give them business. I'm quite sure that every modern day business is well aware of the internet if they want your business they need to compete as simple as that if they won't price match that's their problem not yours. i've been in situations where i have been made to feel uncomfortable because i'm asking about a better price and been more or less scoffed at with a if you can't afford it don't shop here attitude, we don't need to price cut we can sell them for this much. What these types of retailers fail to realise is that i can get the same product cheaper why would i want to willingly pay more. If the retailer does a good enough job i'm going to buy from them if not i'm going elsewhere. If i want to listen or see a product i'm going to look at the product not necessarily buy if from them. A demo is about information gathering not purchasing. Another reason there is no ethic involved is not every retailer stock the same lines so until you know what you want you can't make a commitment. This subject has no ethics involved.
Again the original question was not answered, most retailers these days have a website and/or a online shop were you get an idea of what they have to offer, the question was would you still you use a retailers time knowing full where you have no intent of even giving them a chance?
There is no ethical dilemma in this situation. The retailer is also the face of the brands sold , it is where you can go and see what you are interested in foremost not to give them business. I'm quite sure that every modern day business is well aware of the internet if they want your business they need to compete as simple as that if they won't price match that's their problem not yours. i've been in situations where i have been made to feel uncomfortable because i'm asking about a better price and been more or less scoffed at with a if you can't afford it don't shop here attitude, we don't need to price cut we can sell them for this much. What these types of retailers fail to realise is that i can get the same product cheaper why would i want to willingly pay more. If the retailer does a good enough job i'm going to buy from them if not i'm going elsewhere. If i want to listen or see a product i'm going to look at the product not necessarily buy if from them. A demo is about information gathering not purchasing. Another reason there is no ethic involved is not every retailer stock the same lines so until you know what you want you can't make a commitment. This subject has no ethics involved.
Again the original question was not answered, most retailers these days have a website and/or a online shop were you get an idea of what they have to offer, the question was would you still you use a retailers time knowing full where you have no intent of even giving them a chance?
Is a very shabby practice IMO. I am guilty of doing it previously, but would not do it now (old age forces morality increase shocker...)
I think if you have gotten as far as a dealers premises and are interested in something, then if you TALK to said dealer about price you can work something out. Yes, you will almost certainly pay more than a box shifter - the reasons for that being obvious. But the dealer wants to sell and if you understand that paying a reasonable increased amount is worthwhile due to value added things like dealer support in case of technical problems etc then the extra cost is valid and can be swallowed without suffering that feeling of being 'had'.
I think if you have gotten as far as a dealers premises and are interested in something, then if you TALK to said dealer about price you can work something out. Yes, you will almost certainly pay more than a box shifter - the reasons for that being obvious. But the dealer wants to sell and if you understand that paying a reasonable increased amount is worthwhile due to value added things like dealer support in case of technical problems etc then the extra cost is valid and can be swallowed without suffering that feeling of being 'had'.
v1c:So they won't receive commission/bonus from manufacture on sales achieved ?. Again it's not my concern buying the product is it.
Nope not all all, all the nice discounts most get comes out of peoples wages, over heads etc, there are no bonuses from any manufactures, well not at least from the ones I know.
The thing is you'll only get one chance to waste someones time, the next time you might need them do you think they would give you the amount of time they did the first time? Like I said earlier, once you've worked in the service industry for a long time you soon tell who is who.
Nope not all all, all the nice discounts most get comes out of peoples wages, over heads etc, there are no bonuses from any manufactures, well not at least from the ones I know.
The thing is you'll only get one chance to waste someones time, the next time you might need them do you think they would give you the amount of time they did the first time? Like I said earlier, once you've worked in the service industry for a long time you soon tell who is who.
v1c:
It a tough world i'm afraid.
This is why magazine's such as yourself come in handy can help reduce the amount of demo's required or even needed.
Again sadly wrong, each room will have a completely different sound acoustic signature that will effect the end sound, nothing will ever sound the same from moving one room to another, that's why I good dealer will let you take it home to try in your own room, in the end you might up even saving money with a good dealer.
It a tough world i'm afraid.
This is why magazine's such as yourself come in handy can help reduce the amount of demo's required or even needed.
Again sadly wrong, each room will have a completely different sound acoustic signature that will effect the end sound, nothing will ever sound the same from moving one room to another, that's why I good dealer will let you take it home to try in your own room, in the end you might up even saving money with a good dealer.
JamesOK
Well-known member
Pete10:I don't see how you can get moral advice from a forum of complete strangers... Just ask the question to yourself, or the mrs. Suppose you are listening to the new gear knowing that you saved some $$$ by buying online after extensive demoing with the local guy, do you feel good or bad? Do you dare to go back to the shop next time? What if your children ask advice on a similar issue. Do the right thing bro.
The best answer so far on this thread. From one stranger to another.
Personally, I would feel particularly bad about taking a lot of a dealers time and knowledge, to then go and buy something online. The extra few quid pays for the demo in my opinion.
The best answer so far on this thread. From one stranger to another.
Personally, I would feel particularly bad about taking a lot of a dealers time and knowledge, to then go and buy something online. The extra few quid pays for the demo in my opinion.
silly:v1c:
It a tough world i'm afraid.
This is why magazine's such as yourself come in handy can help reduce the amount of demo's required or even needed.
Again sadly wrong, each room will have a completely different sound acoustic signature that will effect the end sound, nothing will ever sound the same from moving one room to another, that's why I good dealer will let you take it home to try in your own room, in the end you might up even saving money with a good dealer.
I'm wrong in your opinion. I have never said that good retailers don't exist and what you describe would constitute a good retailer and FYI I have been working in retail for 28 years , am i wrong !!!!!!!!!.
It a tough world i'm afraid.
This is why magazine's such as yourself come in handy can help reduce the amount of demo's required or even needed.
Again sadly wrong, each room will have a completely different sound acoustic signature that will effect the end sound, nothing will ever sound the same from moving one room to another, that's why I good dealer will let you take it home to try in your own room, in the end you might up even saving money with a good dealer.
I'm wrong in your opinion. I have never said that good retailers don't exist and what you describe would constitute a good retailer and FYI I have been working in retail for 28 years , am i wrong !!!!!!!!!.
silly:v1c:
There is no ethical dilemma in this situation. The retailer is also the face of the brands sold , it is where you can go and see what you are interested in foremost not to give them business. I'm quite sure that every modern day business is well aware of the internet if they want your business they need to compete as simple as that if they won't price match that's their problem not yours. i've been in situations where i have been made to feel uncomfortable because i'm asking about a better price and been more or less scoffed at with a if you can't afford it don't shop here attitude, we don't need to price cut we can sell them for this much. What these types of retailers fail to realise is that i can get the same product cheaper why would i want to willingly pay more. If the retailer does a good enough job i'm going to buy from them if not i'm going elsewhere. If i want to listen or see a product i'm going to look at the product not necessarily buy if from them. A demo is about information gathering not purchasing. Another reason there is no ethic involved is not every retailer stock the same lines so until you know what you want you can't make a commitment. This subject has no ethics involved.
Again the original question was not answered, most retailers these days have a website and/or a online shop were you get an idea of what they have to offer, the question was would you still you use a retailers time knowing full where you have no intent of even giving them a chance?
I would use a retailers time knowing full well i have no intent of giving them a chance. it would not concern me in the slightest and certainly would not cross any ethical considerations. If however they do a good job with what i look at and what questions i ask then maybe i may change my mind and go with them.
There is no ethical dilemma in this situation. The retailer is also the face of the brands sold , it is where you can go and see what you are interested in foremost not to give them business. I'm quite sure that every modern day business is well aware of the internet if they want your business they need to compete as simple as that if they won't price match that's their problem not yours. i've been in situations where i have been made to feel uncomfortable because i'm asking about a better price and been more or less scoffed at with a if you can't afford it don't shop here attitude, we don't need to price cut we can sell them for this much. What these types of retailers fail to realise is that i can get the same product cheaper why would i want to willingly pay more. If the retailer does a good enough job i'm going to buy from them if not i'm going elsewhere. If i want to listen or see a product i'm going to look at the product not necessarily buy if from them. A demo is about information gathering not purchasing. Another reason there is no ethic involved is not every retailer stock the same lines so until you know what you want you can't make a commitment. This subject has no ethics involved.
Again the original question was not answered, most retailers these days have a website and/or a online shop were you get an idea of what they have to offer, the question was would you still you use a retailers time knowing full where you have no intent of even giving them a chance?
I would use a retailers time knowing full well i have no intent of giving them a chance. it would not concern me in the slightest and certainly would not cross any ethical considerations. If however they do a good job with what i look at and what questions i ask then maybe i may change my mind and go with them.
Andrew Everard:I wouldn't ever say the opinion of a magazine could replace the requirement or need (if there's a difference) for an audition before buying.
No you wouldn't i would not expect you to , however i can assure you that your magazine amongst other information does influence a direction i may take on a product or not.
To me the whole point in gathering information on a product is to see if it is worth getting or not. I don't have the time or the inclination to demo every product i'm interested in. Your magazine offers expert opinions on products what you say means something. Good retailers offer good information about products what they say also means something so if a good retailer says a particular product is good i'm going to listen to what they say and be influenced by it. Why would it influence me well because they work with the product i would expect them to know what is good or not, certainly better than what i would , providing i don't feel like i'm being feed BS it is going to influence my final decision.
I will give you a recent example.
I was getting the Arcam BDP100 as a next level upgrade.
Why reputation , they have a reputation for making great sounding product it was a dead cert buyer to me.
But i'm not just going to go out and buy it am i. I can not afford to make a mistake.
So I will do some investigating, is it as good as it should be ?
After reading uncomplimentary information on the web it put me of , still a maybe it is Arcam after all
After your review not interested, closed , finished , end of.
No demo will get me interested in this product.
I have wasted very little real world time and money to come to this conclusion.
And it's thanks to your magazine.
So although it may not be what you want to hear , and you may come to the conclusion that i'm just an uneducated buffoon, that is just the way it is and i don't suspect i'm totally alone.
My last comments on this subject.
No you wouldn't i would not expect you to , however i can assure you that your magazine amongst other information does influence a direction i may take on a product or not.
To me the whole point in gathering information on a product is to see if it is worth getting or not. I don't have the time or the inclination to demo every product i'm interested in. Your magazine offers expert opinions on products what you say means something. Good retailers offer good information about products what they say also means something so if a good retailer says a particular product is good i'm going to listen to what they say and be influenced by it. Why would it influence me well because they work with the product i would expect them to know what is good or not, certainly better than what i would , providing i don't feel like i'm being feed BS it is going to influence my final decision.
I will give you a recent example.
I was getting the Arcam BDP100 as a next level upgrade.
Why reputation , they have a reputation for making great sounding product it was a dead cert buyer to me.
But i'm not just going to go out and buy it am i. I can not afford to make a mistake.
So I will do some investigating, is it as good as it should be ?
After reading uncomplimentary information on the web it put me of , still a maybe it is Arcam after all
After your review not interested, closed , finished , end of.
No demo will get me interested in this product.
I have wasted very little real world time and money to come to this conclusion.
And it's thanks to your magazine.
So although it may not be what you want to hear , and you may come to the conclusion that i'm just an uneducated buffoon, that is just the way it is and i don't suspect i'm totally alone.
My last comments on this subject.
v1c:So although it may not be what you want to hear , and you may come to the conclusion that i'm just an uneducated buffoon, that is just the way it is and i don't suspect i'm totally alone.
It's flattering that people put so much stock in what the magazine has to say, and I don't think anyone would ever draw that conclusion about you, v1c.
It's flattering that people put so much stock in what the magazine has to say, and I don't think anyone would ever draw that conclusion about you, v1c.
I understand that people regurgitate the 'go out and listen' mantra ad infinitum, and that's fine. but in reality if you are interested in say 3-4 different amps and speakers, there is no way that most of us can audition all of these, let alone very possible combination.
professorhat
Well-known member
Helmut80:I understand that people regurgitate the 'go out and listen' mantra ad infinitum, and that's fine. but in reality if you are interested in say 3-4 different amps and speakers, there is no way that most of us can audition all of these, let alone very possible combination.
Why? It's perfectly possible and you'll find many people on the forum do just that.
I think what you mean to say is, you have other things you'd rather do with your spare time than audition all 3 or 4 speaker and amp combinations. But if you wanted to, there's no reason why you couldn't arrange for these auditions. It may mean travelling quite long distances and spending a lot of time that you personally would rather spend doing something else. But it's possible.
By the way, there's not meant to be anything accusatory in that statement, I completely understand it. But it is generally a fact of life that you can't have your cake and eat it i.e. you can't get the best possible combination that suits you and your budget without putting in a lot of time and effort to decide upon that combination.
Why? It's perfectly possible and you'll find many people on the forum do just that.
I think what you mean to say is, you have other things you'd rather do with your spare time than audition all 3 or 4 speaker and amp combinations. But if you wanted to, there's no reason why you couldn't arrange for these auditions. It may mean travelling quite long distances and spending a lot of time that you personally would rather spend doing something else. But it's possible.
By the way, there's not meant to be anything accusatory in that statement, I completely understand it. But it is generally a fact of life that you can't have your cake and eat it i.e. you can't get the best possible combination that suits you and your budget without putting in a lot of time and effort to decide upon that combination.
I am in the process of upgrading, and I'll use What Hi Fi to come up with a short list. Then I'll find a retailer to demo the equipment, with every intention of buying. Providing I like what I hear and they offer a decent service, that retailer will get my business. If I don't like the equipment, and they don't stock alternative items on my short list, then I'd have no qualms about going somewhere else, because this is exactly what the demo is for. Likewise, if they don't offer a decent service e.g. a while ago, I'd arranged a demo of some kit but when I got there, they didn't have one of the components so they'd substituted a different one without telling me in advance, which they assured me was way better. I wasn't impressed by the situation nor the sound, especially when I later found out that the substituted component had been slated by the critics. Retailers can be unethical too! On the other hand, I personally wouldn't audition equipment with the advance intention of buying online if I liked what I heard, because I consider the slighly inflated price that I would inevitably pay as being a fair deal for the service offered by the retailer. Ethics and morality are very much personal things, so there are no right or wrong answers here!
Here's another spin on ethics:
I'm sure a lot of 'unethical' folks looked at books in bookstores, and then went out and ordered them online at Amazon.com for 30% - 40% off. Amazon.com got bigger and wealthier. It survived the .com bubble. Today, I don't even go to bookstores anymore. I really can even flip though pages of a book at amazon.com. I also use a kindle for non reference books. I don't even have the time, so most of my shopping is really at amazon. (even candy).
As far as CDs went, it was even at the onset, a lot better to get stuff from amazon. I could actually listen to CDs (or snippets of music) online to get a taste of the music before I went out and bought the CD. With music stores, I couldn't. Or definitely couldn't to the wide variety of songs before the salesman gave you a look.
Here's another flip side question:
Is it unethical to go to a website to look at reviews of a product (say at amazon.com) and then buy it at a different website?
I think a lot of the questions of ethics have to do with us putting a face on a store. With smaller hifi stores, we associate them with a few salesman, that we build a working relationship with. Us not buying makes us feel bad because we feel bad for the person we 'cheated'.
With a large firm like amazon, it's kind of faceless, and I guess that's where brand loyalty comes in. You're buying from them because of service, and dependability (and also price), not becuase it's ethical/unethical to buy from them.
I'm guessing we don't think of ethics when going to amazon's website, looking at reviews, and then buying somewhere else because we don't put a face on amazon. We don't think of the countless people who make it possible to have that website going in the first place.
Was it the unethical people that made amazon successful?
Now, HiFi is a totally different beast. I don't see a way to replicate what we did with books (sensory information) with the high end electronics (very subjective audio information).
Although, here's a different business model for high end electronics websites:
You order a bunch of stuff and it comes home to you. (you've got on the phone reps). You listen to it for a a week or so, and send it all back. You then order what you liked. It's more realistic than listening at the hifi store in any case, since a lot of it has to do with the acoustics of your room.
I'm guessing electronics, specially speakers are too bulky a product, and the number of audiophiles too little to make it a worthy proposition.
I'm sure a lot of 'unethical' folks looked at books in bookstores, and then went out and ordered them online at Amazon.com for 30% - 40% off. Amazon.com got bigger and wealthier. It survived the .com bubble. Today, I don't even go to bookstores anymore. I really can even flip though pages of a book at amazon.com. I also use a kindle for non reference books. I don't even have the time, so most of my shopping is really at amazon. (even candy).
As far as CDs went, it was even at the onset, a lot better to get stuff from amazon. I could actually listen to CDs (or snippets of music) online to get a taste of the music before I went out and bought the CD. With music stores, I couldn't. Or definitely couldn't to the wide variety of songs before the salesman gave you a look.
Here's another flip side question:
Is it unethical to go to a website to look at reviews of a product (say at amazon.com) and then buy it at a different website?
I think a lot of the questions of ethics have to do with us putting a face on a store. With smaller hifi stores, we associate them with a few salesman, that we build a working relationship with. Us not buying makes us feel bad because we feel bad for the person we 'cheated'.
With a large firm like amazon, it's kind of faceless, and I guess that's where brand loyalty comes in. You're buying from them because of service, and dependability (and also price), not becuase it's ethical/unethical to buy from them.
I'm guessing we don't think of ethics when going to amazon's website, looking at reviews, and then buying somewhere else because we don't put a face on amazon. We don't think of the countless people who make it possible to have that website going in the first place.
Was it the unethical people that made amazon successful?
Now, HiFi is a totally different beast. I don't see a way to replicate what we did with books (sensory information) with the high end electronics (very subjective audio information).
Although, here's a different business model for high end electronics websites:
You order a bunch of stuff and it comes home to you. (you've got on the phone reps). You listen to it for a a week or so, and send it all back. You then order what you liked. It's more realistic than listening at the hifi store in any case, since a lot of it has to do with the acoustics of your room.
I'm guessing electronics, specially speakers are too bulky a product, and the number of audiophiles too little to make it a worthy proposition.
professorhat:
Helmut80:I understand that people regurgitate the 'go out and listen' mantra ad infinitum, and that's fine. but in reality if you are interested in say 3-4 different amps and speakers, there is no way that most of us can audition all of these, let alone very possible combination.
Why? It's perfectly possible and you'll find many people on the forum do just that.
I think what you mean to say is, you have other things you'd rather do with your spare time than audition all 3 or 4 speaker and amp combinations. But if you wanted to, there's no reason why you couldn't arrange for these auditions. It may mean travelling quite long distances and spending a lot of time that you personally would rather spend doing something else. But it's possible.
By the way, there's not meant to be anything accusatory in that statement, I completely understand it. But it is generally a fact of life that you can't have your cake and eat it i.e. you can't get the best possible combination that suits you and your budget without putting in a lot of time and effort to decide upon that combination.
yes, fair point. It's always a matter of priorities, but if it involves a 1 hour drive each way or more, I for one wouldn't call it 'perfectly possible'. To me, this goes back with many of these products being pretty much a niche market. Pretty much anything else I buy is much more accessible.
Helmut80:I understand that people regurgitate the 'go out and listen' mantra ad infinitum, and that's fine. but in reality if you are interested in say 3-4 different amps and speakers, there is no way that most of us can audition all of these, let alone very possible combination.
Why? It's perfectly possible and you'll find many people on the forum do just that.
I think what you mean to say is, you have other things you'd rather do with your spare time than audition all 3 or 4 speaker and amp combinations. But if you wanted to, there's no reason why you couldn't arrange for these auditions. It may mean travelling quite long distances and spending a lot of time that you personally would rather spend doing something else. But it's possible.
By the way, there's not meant to be anything accusatory in that statement, I completely understand it. But it is generally a fact of life that you can't have your cake and eat it i.e. you can't get the best possible combination that suits you and your budget without putting in a lot of time and effort to decide upon that combination.
yes, fair point. It's always a matter of priorities, but if it involves a 1 hour drive each way or more, I for one wouldn't call it 'perfectly possible'. To me, this goes back with many of these products being pretty much a niche market. Pretty much anything else I buy is much more accessible.
it depends on price differences too - I had a demo last year of a hifi product - I didn't go for it in the end - but the difference in price - in-store vs on-line (which I found out afterwards) was about 600 ! something like 600 pounds vs 1200 - even if you've had a demo would you pay 600 more for that previlege and or future support ? its a lot of money thats for sure
Buckshar:it depends on price differences too
...which have no bearing on the ethics of the matter.
...which have no bearing on the ethics of the matter.
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