Are separates on borrowed time?

[drummerman]

I have not read all hundred and ... posts, apologies and I only just fell over this thread which is mirrored over at AVI forum to which I replied.

The European market may have reached saturation point, especially in todays economic climate but the Asian and especially Chinese market is growing by the second and has absolutely huge potential. They love 2 channel audio and there is a sizeable industry devoted to making it, both for export and internal markets. Furthermore, there seems to be a penchant for expensive foreign products such as from Naim, Meridian and others which will probably (hopefully) ensure survival of these companies even if the structure of said may change over the coming years, meaning they may be incorporated/bought up or manufacturing will move.

As to all inclusive/integrated options, I personally think expensive active speakers (non computer only types), here in europe at least, will not be big sellers and will remain a niche product, much as separates really but even less so.

Some of my friends are happy with TV only sound, some have 'stretched' to micros and not even the better ones. I think for the majority of people, in-home-music-reproduction-quality ranks some way down the priority list. Seeing that TV's and those all-in-one cinema systems are getting slightly more sophisticated with their interfaces I have a feeling that this is were most people would want progress to be seen and where most of the money will be spent.

... but what do I know ...

regards

 

[Overdose]

Lookin' good Max. 8)

Once you've swapped the bricks for speaker stands all that's left to do is replace the wooden TV stand for a 10" subwoofer...

Max, it looks like you have sold all your worldly possesions for some speakers and a telly.

 

[chebby]

To the original question (and just my living room and system)...

... sort of, quite possibly, maybe soon, maybe a bit later...

... but not anything from AVI (simply can't afford their gear anyway).

Note. "sort of" = will look to using my M-CR603 as a front end.

 

[Diamond Joe]

... but not anything from AVI

Ditto that (for different reasons) :O

 

[John Duncan]

Some of my friends are happy with TV only sound, some have 'stretched' to micros and not even the better ones. I think for the majority of people, in-home-music-reproduction-quality ranks some way down the priority list. Seeing that TV's and those all-in-one cinema systems are getting slightly more sophisticated with their interfaces I have a feeling that this is were most people would want progress to be seen and where most of the money will be spent.

This, and something Andy Clough said the other day, has given me an idea for a thread which I might get round to shortly...

 

[Anonymous]

To the OP. No, your set-up would be my personal audio hell.

 

[Frank Harvey]

After hearing Dynaudio's wireless Xeo speakers, I would understand if more people moved across to this type of solution to cut down on clutter, but I still think there will be those that still want a traditional system, just like there are, and will be, those who continue to use CD players instead of taking the streaming route. Everyone is different, and there's room for all.

As an example, one of our regulars has recently bought a very high end CD player, partly because it outperforms his existing one, and also because he's not interested in streaming at all. I have to say it sounded mighty impressive, and it's build quality would've ensured it's journey from our top floor right down to the ground floor should I have dropped it. Beautiful bit of kit.

Surely as technology advances, more and more people are going to end up with a similar system? Why pay for stuff you don't need? Is your typical box swapping enthusiast going to be phased out? How long will it be profitable for manufacturers to make "old skool" seperates? Economies of scale and all that.

I think this will affect the larger companies who make large quantities and stickpile rather than the smaller, higher end manufacturers, who don't make great quantities anyway. you never know, it might push the price of entry/mid level separates down, causing an increase in sales.

Its the same as when people say, "dealers are dying out, they're dropping like flies". Yes, that's true to an extent. We're going to see many more dealers disappear by the end of this year, maybe through to the end of next year, but once the amount get down to an all time low, demand due to a lack of dealers will ensure new dealers will pop up here and there. It's a bit like nature - there will always be balance.

 

[listening-in97]

You say the Rega Brio-R/Rega RS1 setup eventually made your ears bleed. I am thinking about buying the Brio-R and matching it with either KEF 9 bookshelves, Sonar Fabus Toy, Rega RS1 or possibly even the B&W 685. But now I am rethinking the amp based on your comment. Do you think it was a result of the speakers. Can you can expand on the listening fatigue?

Cheers and thanks

 

[fr0g]

As an example, one of our regulars has recently bought a very high end CD player

This one line sums up the whole thing for me.

"One of our regulars"... at a Hi-Fi shop?

I can just see it. "What'll it be Fred, the usual?"

"Yes Frank, I'll take 10 metres of obscenely expensive copper wire"

"Coming right up"

"Ahhhhhhh, that's better"

Suggests to me a serial box-swapper. Obviously not happy with the sound/permanently searching for something that doesn't exist.

I am so glad I left all of that behind.

 

[Sizzers]

You say the Rega Brio-R/Rega RS1 setup eventually made your ears bleed. I am thinking about buying the Brio-R and matching it with either KEF 9 bookshelves, Sonar Fabus Toy, Rega RS1 or possibly even the B&W 685. But now I am rethinking the amp based on your comment. Do you think it was a result of the speakers. Can you can expand on the listening fatigue?

Cheers and thanks

The amp is fine, just that I went around partnering it the wrong way.I have a variety of kit and when I bought the RS1's at the time I was using the Marantz CD6003/PM6003, mainly with Dali Lektor 1's and occasionally Focal 706V's. I heard the RS1's a couple of years or so ago, not in a proper extended demo setting but a good listen nevertheless. I honestly cannot remember what they were partnered with, but I was extremely impressed with their clarity, detail, and timing.I came across a selection of brand new RS1's speakers in February in a variety of the "alternative" gloss colours (red/green/yellow) for £299 and snapped up the red, and on the end of the Marantz they were sublime. A friend though they sounded on the btight side, but to my ears they were just wonderfully clear and detailed.Next up (and on a bit of a whim) I picked up a brand new end-of-line Apollo for £349 which is where the problems really began. As wonderfully detailed as this CDP is no question it over accentuates the highs making it bright with the wrong partnering, and IMO it really didn't match with the RS1's at all. The Marantz is not a bright amp in any way (musical and engaging seems to be the best way to describe it), but it just didn't work for me with the Apollo.It had always been my intention to pick-up the Brio which I duly did, and again I hooked this up to the Apollo/RS1's. Now I do love my Marantz amp but the Brio (obviously or otherwise) takes everything up another level, particularly with regards to detail. With the right recordings the Apollo/Brio/RS1 can sound stunning, but to often it can also sound far too shrill to my ears (the sibiliance on "The Flood" by Katie Melua literally make me wince, for example).Unfortunately I have the CD6003 in storage elsewhere where it hasn't been practical to retrieve it. It would have been good to have added that in to the mix for a comparison using that as a different source, but my honest thoughts are that the bright Apollo with the very revealing RS1's are the problem. One thing to add, though, is that before buying the Brio I had moved in to a different, larger room in the house, and I'm not discarding the possibility that the different room acoustics are not playing a part in this.Apologies if this has gone on a bit, but I just wanted to explain how I arrived at where I did.

The amp is fine, just that I went around partnering it the wrong way.

I have a variety of kit and when I bought the RS1's at the time I was using the Marantz CD6003/PM6003, mainly with Dali Lektor 1's and occasionally Focal 706V's. I heard the RS1's a couple of years or so ago, not in a proper extended demo setting but a good listen nevertheless. I honestly cannot remember what they were partnered with, but I was extremely impressed with their clarity, detail, and timing.

I came across a selection of brand new RS1's speakers in February in a variety of the "alternative" gloss colours (red/green/yellow) for £299 and snapped up the red, and on the end of the Marantz they were sublime. A friend though they sounded on the btight side, but to my ears they were just wonderfully clear and detailed.

Next up (and on a bit of a whim) I picked up a brand new end-of-line Apollo for £349, which is where the problems really began. As wonderfully detailed as this CDP is no question it over accentuates the highs making it bright with the wrong partnering, and IMO it really didn't match with the RS1's at all. The Marantz is not a bright amp in any way (musical and engaging seems to be the best way to describe it), but it just didn't work for me with the Apollo.

It had always been my intention to pick-up the Brio which I duly did, and again I hooked this up to the Apollo/RS1's. Now I do love my Marantz amp but the Brio (obviously or otherwise) takes everything up another level, particularly with regards to the detail. With the right recordings the Apollo/Brio/RS1 can sound stunning, but to often it can also sound far too shrill to my ears (the sibiliance on "The Flood" by Katie Melua literally make me wince, for example).

Unfortunately I have the CD6003 in storage elsewhere where it hasn't been practical to retrieve it. It would have been good to have added that in to the mix has a comparison using that as a different source, but my honest thoughts are that the bright Apollo with the very revealing RS1's are the problem. One thing to add, though, is that before buying the Brio I had moved in to a different, larger room in the house, and I'm not discarding the possibility that the different room acoustics may not be playing some part in this.

Apologies if this has gone on a bit, but I just wanted to explain how I arrived at where I did.

 

[drummerman]

As an example, one of our regulars has recently bought a very high end CD player

This one line sums up the whole thing for me.

"One of our regulars"... at a Hi-Fi shop?

I can just see it. "What'll it be Fred, the usual?"

"Yes Frank, I'll take 10 metres of obscenely expensive copper wire"

"Coming right up"

"Ahhhhhhh, that's better"

Suggests to me a serial box-swapper. Obviously not happy with the sound/permanently searching for something that doesn't exist.

I am so glad I left all of that behind.

But is going AVI putting a stop to that? -

There are owners that sell AVI active model x to upgrade to AVI active model z or they sent theirs in for modification if that was possible.

Soon there will be some that will sell their AVI active model z to finance AVI's new active floorstander model ...

regards

 

[fr0g]

But is going AVI putting a stop to that? -

Hi dm, I didn't mention Avi.

There are owners that sell AVI active model x to upgrade to AVI active model z or they sent theirs in for modification if that was possible.

To be fair, that is a relatively inexpensive upgrade, and not one I am particularly interested in.

I think going "active" reduces rather than removes the need to upgrade.

Soon there will be some that will sell their AVI active model z to finance AVI's new active floorstander model ...

regards

Some will for sure. I don't think it's quite the same level of obsession as exists in medium to high-end though. I imagine those that do will end up with the new ones for a very long time.

 

[drummerman]

...

I think going "active" reduces rather than removes the need to upgrade.

...

Perhaps. Maybe it has as much to do with a lack of upgrade potential, kind of a self imposed 'audio quarantine'. After all, with actives, you normally got to change the lot if you want to get better sound. Again, taking AVI as an example, if the upgrades are available, some will take them up. - Thats not to dismiss the value of them but the 'happy forever after' if going active is a bit of a dead duck.

Its just human nature to be inquisitive and aim for more but I agree, for some this will end in obsession.

regards

 

[John Duncan]

I think going "active" reduces rather than removes the need to upgrade.

The ADMs are max's - what - third pair of actives? Or is it fourth?

 

[Anonymous]

I think going "active" reduces rather than removes the need to upgrade.

The ADMs are max's - what - third pair of actives? Or is it fourth?

4th.. Going active is a great idea IMO but as i've found, you need to choose the right actives.

As for upgrading? Sure, if i had loads of expendable income i'm pretty sure i'd buy ADM40's, a MacBook Pro, a VT50, etc, i'd upgrade all sorts of things, who wouldn't?

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, i feel i've got the best possible sound my budget could get me, and am not even thinking (or dreaming) about upgrading, i'm just loving my music 8)

 

[fr0g]

I think going "active" reduces rather than removes the need to upgrade.

The ADMs are max's - what - third pair of actives? Or is it fourth?

"special case". Don't forget he didn't lose much if any money in the process so I would describe his situation as "extended auditioning". I think he was always after ADMs, and finally got there with his very ingenious Athur Daley phone business and some sweet talking.

I would still stand by my assertion. There is certainly less to "worry" about. And if you audition properly first then what's there to faff around with? Okay you could get into the whole "power cables make a difference" or "transports matter" spiral stairs to hell but if you choose pro audio or the aforementioned Avi and possibly others, at least the commonly accepted belief is that this stuff "makes no frelling difference" (Sorry, just been watching Farscape )

*edit, he beat me to the reply.

 

[Frank Harvey]

This one line sums up the whole thing for me.

"One of our regulars"... at a Hi-Fi shop?

I can just see it. "What'll it be Fred, the usual?"

"Yes Frank, I'll take 10 metres of obscenely expensive copper wire"

"Coming right up"

"Ahhhhhhh, that's better"

Suggests to me a serial box-swapper. Obviously not happy with the sound/permanently searching for something that doesn't exist.

I am so glad I left all of that behind.

Aaah, the cynicism of 'that' other forum never fails to shine through and amuse.

You shouldn't let your 'active' imagination run away with you

For your info, he's far from a serial box swapper. He's been happy with his system for a long time, but felt his CD player (his source, nothing to do with speakers or amplification, you'll note) needed upgrading.

'Regulars' don't necessarily buy regularly.

 

[Craig M.]

you could always shove some black ravioli under them. or maybe bust them open and stick it inside. but i agree, actives provide less to worry about.

 

[fr0g]

This one line sums up the whole thing for me.

"One of our regulars"... at a Hi-Fi shop?

I can just see it. "What'll it be Fred, the usual?"

"Yes Frank, I'll take 10 metres of obscenely expensive copper wire"

"Coming right up"

"Ahhhhhhh, that's better"

Suggests to me a serial box-swapper. Obviously not happy with the sound/permanently searching for something that doesn't exist.

I am so glad I left all of that behind.

Aaah, the cynicism of 'that' other forum never fails to shine through and amuse.

You shouldn't let your 'active' imagination run away with you

For your info, he's far from a serial box swapper. He's been happy with his system for a long time, but felt his CD player (his source, nothing to do with speakers or amplification, you'll note) needed upgrading.

'Regulars' don't necessarily buy regularly.

Ah the cynicism of the vested interest always shines through and amuses

As a matter of interest what did he upgrade from and to?

 

[John Duncan]

Nothing we did, but it appears to have taste

 

[John Duncan]

I would still stand by my assertion. There is certainly less to "worry" about. And if you audition properly first then what's there to faff around with? Okay you could get into the whole "power cables make a difference" or "transports matter" spiral stairs to hell but if you choose pro audio or the aforementioned Avi and possibly others, at least the commonly accepted belief is that this stuff "makes no frelling difference" (Sorry, just been watching Farscape )

Like a NaimUniti and some good speakers then?

 

[Anonymous]

I think going "active" reduces rather than removes the need to upgrade.

The ADMs are max's - what - third pair of actives? Or is it fourth?

"special case". Don't forget he didn't lose much if any money in the process so I would describe his situation as "extended auditioning". I think he was always after ADMs, and finally got there with his very ingenious Athur Daley phone business and some sweet talking.

I would still stand by my assertion. There is certainly less to "worry" about. And if you audition properly first then what's there to faff around with? Okay you could get into the whole "power cables make a difference" or "transports matter" spiral stairs to hell but if you choose pro audio or the aforementioned Avi and possibly others, at least the commonly accepted belief is that this stuff "makes no frelling difference" (Sorry, just been watching Farscape )

*edit, he beat me to the reply.

I couldn't login here for the last few days, keep getting a message saying "access denied", from a "troll block". S'okay this morning though

EDIT... Sweet talking :roll:

 

[John Duncan]

vested interest

As there are on many forums, I've found.

Keep it clean, boys.

 

[Frank Harvey]

As a matter of interest what did he upgrade from and to?

So you can continue your p taking? Nah, you're ok. I was originally making a point, and you have to and do the usual AVI thing. Max, this answers something you asked, if you remember - it's when forum members start to sound like their teacher.

 

[fr0g]

I would still stand by my assertion. There is certainly less to "worry" about. And if you audition properly first then what's there to faff around with? Okay you could get into the whole "power cables make a difference" or "transports matter" spiral stairs to hell but if you choose pro audio or the aforementioned Avi and possibly others, at least the commonly accepted belief is that this stuff "makes no frelling difference" (Sorry, just been watching Farscape )

Like a NaimUniti and some good speakers then?

In a way. Although I'd personally want a little more oomph and better VFM. But I'd be more than happy with such a system on my computer desk