Are separates on borrowed time?

[matthewpiano]

Headphones offer a different listening experience to speakers. Of course you don't get the soundstaging in the same way, but with headphones you do get a very intimate experience with the music and you often pick up on different details if you use a good quality pair. Mostly, for me, headphones are about being able to listen to music at times when using speakers would disturb other people. Being as the music is the most important aspect of all this for me, I don't want to be limited as to when I can listen and it just isn't right to be using speakers after 10pm at night when neighbours could be disturbed.

One thing I don't want to see developing on this forum is snobbery about different people's choices, whether that be using headphones or their choice of components, such as the Wharfedales that Moon uses. This forum has always been open minded about what can be achieved with a wide range of kit and there is no reason why that should change.

 

[shooter]

the concept of hi fidelity is that it should sound as close to the original as it can and this would include scale and size (it has to because thats why high end hi-fi exists).

HiFi should reproduce what the source is with minimam colouration, noise, distortion and have an accurate frequency responce, it doesnt matter how this is done, most hi-fi today is engineered to a standard and can reproduce it what ever the price. I would say a headphone could reproduce an accuate frequency response better than speakers can, there is no cabinet peaks and troughs, no port resonances or crossover points with headphones either.

The absolute best hi-fi system i have heard actually sounded so holographic that you FELT as if you could stand up and walk amongst the performers and possibly shake hands with all of them and it was a combination of equipment and room size as well as room treatment in the dedicated room that made all the difference

A holographic image is easily achieved with any cost hi-fi, go to the reviews section on whf and build the cheapest hi-fi, that will image. Imaging is only an illusion created whilst recording in the studio, the most common method is to use the Blumlien which you have 2 microphones at 90˚ to each other, this technique was actually created in the early 1900's for cimema, to give the impression of a charecter walking form one side of the screen to the other, its still used today as it helps with phase issues when recording. You can still recreate the illution of the band with one microphone, its all in the mix down and you need to remember, not all artists record at the some time or even the same place, laying track over track to create the final is common so what your imaging is not a true portrayal of what happened in the stuidio and that in turn is knowere near the bands live performance, it is studio trickery, but still its fun.

On a personnel note, i've hav CDP's ranging from £20 up to 10k in my system and all of them imaged, some better than others and one was outstanding and the source has a greater impact over imaging when a pair of speakers are set up correctly.

Headphones does not get you to anywhere close to this effect and granted if you listen to wharfedale 9.1's then possibly you have never experienced what im talking about

You'll probaly find headphone users would disagree and to say 9.1's cant recreate a good image is rediculous.

 

[shooter]

Blimey, look at all those cables

 

[hoopsontoast]

Moon, maybe, just maybe you need to hear some better hifi systems, there is a whole world out there!

Headphones can not re-create 'people in the room' that you get from very good hifi-systems, unfortunatley those particular ones are A-Quite expensive, B-not domestically acceptable and C-Usually involve some sort of DIY and Tweaking.

They can be good though, dont get me wrong and as mentioned, eliminate the biggest limiting factor in any hifi-system, the room. But IMO they can not give me what I want from a hifi. And you can not share it with friends, thats a downside.

 

[moon]

Moon, maybe, just maybe you need to hear some better hifi systems, there is a whole world out there!

Headphones can not re-create 'people in the room' that you get from very good hifi-systems, unfortunatley those particular ones are A-Quite expensive, B-not domestically acceptable and C-Usually involve some sort of DIY and Tweaking.

They can be good though, dont get me wrong and as mentioned, eliminate the biggest limiting factor in any hifi-system, the room. But IMO they can not give me what I want from a hifi. And you can not share it with friends, thats a downside.

I was just wondering, how,

1: you know what What Hi Fi equipment i have owned in my life?

2 : you know what Hi Fi I have listened to?

It has already been pointed out in no uncertain terms that I could not possibly understand Soundstaging and imagining In realtion to Hi Fi, because

1: I made a statement about my personal headphone use.

2: I base everything I know about sound reproduction on some Wharfedale Diamonds.

I regret having mentioned anything about my education background even though it was stated that my knowledge was in question.

Room Acoustics and the production/ mastering of a track has far more impact on how the music sounds than what its played back on regardless of the cost........ the whole snobbery of I own this expensive bit of equipment so it must be good lark.....is just tiresome and narrow minded.

So as they say in Dragons

I'm out

( and taking a brake from here......)

Have a nice easter and enjoy the Holidays

 

[steve_1979]

Headphones offer a different listening experience to speakers. Of course you don't get the soundstaging in the same way, but with headphones you do get a very intimate experience with the music and you often pick up on different details if you use a good quality pair.

Agreed.

High quality headphones are better than speakers in some ways but worse in other ways. Different compromises.

Mostly, for me, headphones are about being able to listen to music at times when using speakers would disturb other people.

It's the same for me, I never listen to headphones at home only speakers.

I do much of my music listening via my Walkman when I'm out and about though. It never fails to impress me that a high quality portable system can sound just as good (in most but not all ways) as the best active speakers that I've ever heard.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Moon, maybe, just maybe you need to hear some better hifi systems, there is a whole world out there!

Headphones can not re-create 'people in the room' that you get from very good hifi-systems, unfortunatley those particular ones are A-Quite expensive, B-not domestically acceptable and C-Usually involve some sort of DIY and Tweaking.

They can be good though, dont get me wrong and as mentioned, eliminate the biggest limiting factor in any hifi-system, the room. But IMO they can not give me what I want from a hifi. And you can not share it with friends, thats a downside.

I was just wondering, how,

1: you know what What Hi Fi equipment i have owned in my life? I dont

2 : you know what Hi Fi I have listened to? I dont

It has already been pointed out in no uncertain terms that I could not possibly understand Soundstaging and imagining In realtion to Hi Fi, because

1: I made a statement about my personal headphone use.

2: I base everything I know about sound reproduction on some Wharfedale Diamonds.

I regret having mentioned anything about my education background even though it was stated that my knowledge was in question.

Room Acoustics and the production/ mastering of a track has far more impact on how the music sounds than what its played back on regardless of the cost........ the whole snobbery of I own this expensive bit of equipment so it must be good lark.....is just tiresome and narrow minded.

So as they say in Dragons

I'm out

( and taking a brake from here......)

Have a nice easter and enjoy the Holidays

I agree with what you said, and If you read my post you would see that. I was just saying maybe you need to hear a lot more hifi systems, not always expensive (Your stuff probably cost more than mine did).

And to be honest you did say-

The other thing that makes me smile, is when I put my headphones on via my ipad for a bit of headfi and it blows away any Hifi Ive ever heard.

Which is quite a strong statment, and opens up debate.

You did not add a qualifier either, for example, one thing I believe "The ATC SCM7's are the best bookshelf speaker I have heard under £1k" so that gives you a bit of context. I have heard quite a few speakers in that price range and its my opinion. Granted I have not heard all bookshelf speakers in that price range so its open to debate and opinion, and I am willing to be proved wrong.

When you get in a huff as some people have questioned your opinion on your above statment, seems a bit naieve.

Now you also claimed that-

Ahem, you are absolutly right ! I havnt got the faintest idea about Hifi, and in particular my knowledge is particularly lacking when it comes to the aspects of " Soundstaging" and " imaging". Would it be possible for you to tutor me about all aspects of Hi Fi as I missed this module when I did my Music and Sound recording degree.

Many thanks in advance.

Now, I also have a degree, in Car Design, now that might give me an informed opinion on the design of cars, but not an opinion over anyone else, degree or not.

:type:

 

[Anonymous]

Blimey, look at all those cables

Huh??

 

[manicm]

In the UK, for the average customer who lives in an apartment, I'm sure it has been for over a decade now. I see a few pictures here and I'm surprised that many still consider even standmounts for their small rooms. Which is why I've went the Minx route (still haven't connected, my car has been in repairs for over a month and I forgot my cables etc under the boot - I can only hope it's still there when it returns). To my mind even the most space optimised standmounts or floorstanders are going to be a compromise in a small room.

I could be wrong though and would happily stand to be corrected.

 

[Alec]

??????

 

[manicm]

I think one of my female friends would like some of those.

 

[idc]

The other thing that makes me smile, is when I put my headphones on via my ipad for a bit of headfi and it blows away any Hifi Ive ever heard.

headphones will only beat a hi-fi if you havent got the faintest clue about soundstaging and imaging - i have a good set of headphones and i still cannot get used to the in-your-head imaging aspect - and i actually find the whole headphones experience to be pathetic - so its all about what you look for in your sound - i dont only listen to the words but my hi-fi is okay and i have heard many high end setups that actually cost as much as my apartment flat and create holographic imaging thats almost lifesize (for small scale band performances - maybe not lifesize for full orchestral performances)

I suppose it also depends on the music you listen to as well - with the music i listen to headphones are the worst thing around and cannot in any way compare to a proper hi-fi in a full size room (maybe the hi-fi's you listened to were restricted by the smaller rooms you find in England - here in South Africa most people who have great Hi-fi manage to put them into rooms that are large enough to draw the best out of them hence why i feel that headphones can come absolutely nowher near the performance levels of good hi-fi besides maybe for having marginally better tonality and dynamics because of its intimate near field nature - but a performer is never standing on the top of my head or even standing face to face at one foot away during a live performance so how can a set of headphones seem realistic

The last live performance I was at had no stereo imaging at all. The volume and small venue saw to that. Prior to that I went to see a concert at a larger hall but was closer to one set of speakers than the other, so I got a mono version of the sound.

I have been to many concerts in many venues, inside and out and got nothing like the stereo imaging you get from sitting in the perfect spot with a two speaker hifi. Indeed the sound I get with my headphones IME is closer to the sound of live concerts. It is not just in my head, I can feel it in my body as well. I have never experienced that with a two speaker hifi, even the massive Linn one I heard. Headphone vs hifi vs live are all noticeably different from each other.

As for headphones and soundstage or imaging, my headphones vary from in your head to in the headphones. Try listening to Ogdens Nut Gone Flake with AKG K280 Parabolic headphones and you will hear headphones creating sound stage and imaging. Try this with any headphone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDTlvagjJA

and experience soundstage and imaging I have never heard a speaker create. I do not think that it is fair to criticise headphones for a lack of soundstage and imaging when recordings are not made to bring out what headphones are capable of.

 

[steve_1979]

Sweeeeet. 8)

Do you get much sound reflecting of the stone floor? Have you ever considered using a floor rug to see how it effects the sound?

 

[steve_1979]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDTlvagjJA

This is an amazing 3D stereo effect. It has to be heard (using headphones) to be believed.

 

[Anonymous]

Sweeeeet. 8)

Do you get much sound reflecting of the stone floor? Have you ever considered using a floor rug to see how it effects the sound?

Hi Steve, i probably do have a lot of sound bouncing around in here and have thought about a rug, a half decent one isn't cheap though, i must check out a few 2nd hand shops and invest in some Shake n Vac

 

[chebby]

Sweeeeet. 8)

Do you get much sound reflecting of the stone floor? Have you ever considered using a floor rug to see how it effects the sound?

Only so long as the rug has been ABX blind tested in an independently controlled comparison. Polyester vs wool, with underlay vs without underlay and a 'control rug' (of course).

I believe all rugs sound the same and that expensive rugs are a waste of money. What Rug? Carpet and Mat's reviews, where they claim they could hear a difference, are ridiculous against the weight of scientific fact.

 

[the record spot]

Arf. Don't forget the green pen round the edge to improve audibilityness. Matching colours are not available.

 

[Anonymous]

Sweeeeet. 8)

Do you get much sound reflecting of the stone floor? Have you ever considered using a floor rug to see how it effects the sound?

Only so long as the rug has been ABX blind tested in an independently controlled comparison. Polyester vs wool, with underlay vs without underlay and a 'control rug' (of course).

I believe all rugs sound the same and that expensive rugs are a waste of money. What Rug? Carpet and Mat's reviews, where they claim they could hear a difference, are ridiculous against the weight of scientific fact.

I knew it!

 

[idc]

IMO and IME being happy with your listening evironment is very important indeed to enjoyment of hifi. Max, if you like your room as it is and like the sound as it is then :cheer:

Does your laptop stream to the Apple TV? Is it connected directly to your speakers or via the TV?

 

[the record spot]

A German pointer, yesterday.

(Okay, yes, okay, I know he was Austrian...!)

 

[Anonymous]

IMO and IME being happy with your listening evironment is very important indeed to enjoyment of hifi. Max, if you like your room as it is and like the sound as it is then :cheer:

Does your laptop stream to the Apple TV? Is it connected directly to your speakers or via the TV?

Hi idc..The laptop streams to the ATV3 using iTunes, and there's an optical cable running from it to the ADMs, it's a very neat setup and sounds amazing even though it's in the equivalent of a large bathroom with just a couch and two German Pointers to break up the soundwaves

Edit.. I have a 2nd optical cable running from the TV to the ADMs, i just use the ADM remote to switch between them. The ATV3 is handy as you can watch youtube on the TV, and stream movies from Apple (paid) or Netflix (one month free subscribtion, then e6.99 pm), you can also watch HD movie trailers for free, though i can only seem to use youtube, attempting to use anything else results in an error message, this is common it seems, i'm too busy enjoying my music to care right now but will have to look into it soon.

 

[Anonymous]

A German pointer, yesterday.

(Okay, yes, okay, I know he was Austrian...!)

Asking him to "stay" didn't work

 

[the record spot]

Not by a long way! Nice setup by the way Max. Glad you're enjoying them.

 

[Anonymous]

Not by a long way! Nice setup by the way Max. Glad you're enjoying them.

Cheers RS

 

[bigboss]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDTlvagjJA

This is an amazing 3D stereo effect. It has to be heard (using headphones) to be believed.

I've got this on my phone. Absolutely no Hi Fi speaker can create this effect which any headphone can.