Are separates on borrowed time?

[Anonymous]

We're in a period of "Hifi Forum Glasnost" are we not? So while i'm obviously looking to spark debate here (it's enjoyable, isn't that why we're on fora?) i'm not looking to start silly arguments or see people lose their jobs, thanks.

It's not active vs passive again, but old/established vs new/future tech and people's changing needs..

 

[Alec]

Possibly something to do with dealers not wanting to lose the massive proifits available on separates?

Presumably those who manufacture active speakers do so out of the kindness of their own hearts?

Common knowledge that, innit?

 

[the record spot]

I'm not suggesting everyone buy actives, or that they're the solution for everyone, i just think the way tech is going, with most everyone owning a pc, tablet, and the younger generation being so tech savvy, that manufacturers will need to adapt to meet a growing demand for more streamlined and cheaper, pc based audio solutions. Which may marginalise the traditional seperate enthusiast further, will there be a point when the economies of scale and lack of demand mean they'll all but dissapear? Or become quite expensive?

I don't think you're quite on the money with economies of scale Max. The big manufacturers already benefit from them in precisely the same way that (e.g.) AVI do, except moreso. Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon, Marantz...they all turn out streamers, traditional two channel, multichannel, all-in-one systems. Take your pick. They already benefit from economies of scale beyond the dreams of the smaller companies out there and design expertise and capabilities most of us would gape at.

Streamlined and cheaper doesn't necessarily mean better - the ATV is a case in point. The ATV3 is the product the 2 should've been and the iPad, while a fine product, only offers 4:3 and not 16:9. So all is not rosy on the new tech front.

And Chebby is pretty much right; more people will buy some decent headphones (under, probably well under, £100) and a portable music player (or phone). In fact, I probably use my Touch more than anything these days while the Onkyo probably does more of a traditional amp job than anything else.

No, separates will be here for a while and box swappers likewise (and of course, they're not restricted to traditional hifi - I think the ADM's are about your third pair of speakers in around 18 months aren't they Max...?).

 

[the record spot]

Most people think multiple boxes, cables and monsterous choice is a disadvantage when all you want to do is play music at high quality.

Multiple boxes? You still have them iggle - by the time you've swapped out your CDP for your laptop, or handheld source, NAS, external HDD, they're still there!

My stereo? One CDP, one network receiver and two speakers. The TV has an optical into the amp and the blu-ray player has an HDMI into the TV. I can stream via DLNA to either the TV or the amp.

I think some people might see multiple boxes, cables and monsterous choice is a disadvantage, but playing music at high quality and a setup such as that is not a case of mutually exclusives at work.

 

[Anonymous]

I already had a laptop and iPhone so they don't count. I've reduced my box count by four, including the associated cables. That's a win.

 

[steve_1979]

Although I'm unlikely to ever buy any hifi separates again I would still be saddened if they were no longer being made.

They're in the same category as motor bikes or classic cars for me - I will never own one but I'm still glad they exist.

 

[the record spot]

Ah, sorry, okay Iggle, that's an argument that's used by many, so you'll need to pardon me if I use it. I'll drop my laptop out the equation in that case.

So, receiver, CDP and speakers and I could lose the CDP, but I like the physical product and as the Onkyo has internet radio, Spotify, Last FM and Napster as well as the means to add other web sources I'm covered for source material. Never seen a pair of actives deliver that right enough.

 

[FennerMachine]

Are less boxes 'better' or just 'different'?

I have heard systems that sound 'better' than my system on a quick listen. Then I go home, put a few CD tracks on and then realise why I spent how much I did on separates over the years.

If I could go back, looking in hind sight, I might have bought different separates but I would still have bought separates.

 

[Alec]

There seems to be a missaprehension that actives need a "non traditional" source".

EDIT - I'm looking at your post of 8.45, John.

 

[moon]

We're in a period of "Hifi Forum Glasnost" are we not? So while i'm obviously looking to spark debate here (it's enjoyable, isn't that why we're on fora?) i'm not looking to start silly arguments or see people lose their jobs, thanks.

It's not active vs passive again, but old/established vs new/future tech and people's changing needs..

Well, established seperates are adapting as well. My Cambridge has a USB input, hardly revolutionary, but adapting yes. Very simple set up, minimal cabling . The new Sansui has an inbuilt dac section....... e.c.t. So If they continue to tweak this and that seperates will be around for a good while longer.

As far as simplicity goes, I think my set up is just as user friendlty and minimalist as yours.

The AVIs require Two power cables, and a link cable dont they. And and optical feed from the ATV2 which also requires a power supply. Thats three power cables, one optical and a link.

Mine is 2 power cables, 1 USB and 2 speaker cables.

Hardly miles apart are they, my music is controlled by an ipad wirelessly.

Sound quality wise, its each to their own.

 

[Anonymous]

Is a Smartphone considered a box? If not then an ATV and pair of ADMs and you're good to go, if you also have an iPhone. Or perhaps a pair of passives and an amp with built in pre and DAC, and airplay, or some other app that'll enable streaming from a phone. It's the way it's going IMO.

Nothing wrong with box swapping if it's what you like to do then that's fine, i done it for a while and enjoyed it, but i've been working my way towards a setup like i have, with the best sound quality i've heard from the least boxes.

I'm on my 7th pair of speakers in almost exactly two years, RS, the first two i enjoyed for a while as i'd not heard much to compare against them and they were a novelty as i was only getting into hifi, though i soon tired of their brightness. The third pair i loved (Dynaudio DM2/7s) but had to sell as i needed cash, since then i've had three pairs of studio monitors, which were all pretty good and amazing value for money, though i was never really happy with any of them. Now i've got ADMs which are IMO a class above what i've had before and i'm happy, i may get a sub at some point.

 

[Anonymous]

We're in a period of "Hifi Forum Glasnost" are we not? So while i'm obviously looking to spark debate here (it's enjoyable, isn't that why we're on fora?) i'm not looking to start silly arguments or see people lose their jobs, thanks.

It's not active vs passive again, but old/established vs new/future tech and people's changing needs..

Well, established seperates are adapting as well. My Cambridge has a USB input, hardly revolutionary, but adapting yes. Very simple set up, minimal cabling . The new Sansui has an inbuilt dac section....... e.c.t. So If they continue to tweak this and that seperates will be around for a good while longer.

As far as simplicity goes, I think my set up is just as user friendlty and minimalist as yours.

The AVIs require Two power cables, and a link cable dont they. And and optical feed from the ATV2 which also requires a power supply. Thats three power cables, one optical and a link.

Mine is 2 power cables, 1 USB and 2 speaker cables.

Hardly miles apart are they, my music is controlled by an ipad wirelessly.

Sound quality wise, its each to their own.

Your setup is indeed very like mine apart from it being passive, I never suggested one needs active speakers to move with the times, but i think the days of racks full of boxes all doing a different job (old skool seperates) are numbered, they're expensive and unnecessary IMO, they take up lots of space and in most cases don't make for a higher quality sound.

PS. I doubt David will agree

 

[the record spot]

Couldn't disagree more Max. But each to their own. I'm glad you like your new speakers.

 

[moon]

Some people like minimalism and simplicity, and others like a whole den full of kit.

My mate embraces all modern technology, still doesnt stop him having a Full size tape deck, full size minidisk player, record player, cd player, DVD player, original ipod with dock, ipad plugged in via single jack, oh and an XBox 360 and playstation 2. laptop Aex....... Some active monitors and some floorstanding Misiions .... oh and a receiver. CRT tv screen. He has so many recordings of projects and regular music stored on different media that he always has a back up.....

It doesnt matter how much companies market us with this supposed minimalistic futuristic world we are supposed to be living in in Z years...... they are just selling stuff.

Some people like living surrounded by loads of crap theyve collected in their life. some dont.

 

[moon]

I have a fairly minimListic set up, doesnt stop me having all my cd's on display,and its a lot. I likez to look at the covers and read when I am listening. just cause I own a laptop and Ipod should all my cds bee stored in the loft?

 

[fr0g]

Hmm, behind on this one. But in response to Chebby's post (I thnik), I doubt anyone here wants to see the demise of separates, or manufacturers and dealers.

My own response re profits to David was merely ribbing, as I haven't a clue what any margins are, and as has been suggested, IF the focus did turn to actives, it could be even greater considering the reduction in material cost v the increase in sound quality...

However, I did highlight that choice has been to put it mildly, sparse. So saying "They would have taken over by now" is somewhat unfair.

I agree that they aren't really a space saver, other than an amplifier, and when the power cord and phono connector is considered are actually less easy to position.

But there is no doubting the technology. As I said, long-term I think (and hope) that wireless solutions will become available.

But as to wether the separates industry will disappear... No chance in my lifetime. Even if one tech takes over, there will still be demand for amps, cd players, vinyl, tubes, etc. Longer term, probably, but by then box-shaped actives will have been moved into the Science museum too.

 

[shooter]

If you dump the seperartes and go active you still need hardware to get them up and running. I can understand how people would like them as a lifestyle choice if your Apple advacates (like me) and/or your summoned by the thumb of WAF.

For me HiFi isn't about that even though i'm still toying with the active route. Its a hobby and i want to enjoy looking at the fruits of my labour, i also like sitting looking at what i have, swapping things around with new units or cable and even opening the things up for a hoover out!

If i went active (probably Adam) i'd still want boxes to play with, Dac Pre's and transports, all that faff is in me from a very early age, not sure i could shake it off that easily and more still, not sure i'd want too. :cheers:

 

[moon]

If you dump the seperartes and go active you still need hardware to get them up and running. I can understand how people would like them as a lifestyle choice if your Apple advacates (like me) and/or your summoned by the thumb of WAF.

For me HiFi isn't about that even though i'm still toying with the active route. Its a hobby and i want to enjoy looking at the fruits of my labour, i also like sitting looking at what i have, swapping things around with new units or cable and even opening the things up for a hoover out!

If i went active (probably Adam) i'd still want boxes to play with, Dac Pre's and transports, all that faff is in me from a very early age, not sure i could shake it off that easily and more still, not sure i'd want too. :cheers:

 

[hoopsontoast]

I think the Active/Passive debate is a bit old, and its just as easy to get something small, discrete and simple with a passive system. I had a T-Amp (the size of a *** packet) with a cheap CDP as the input and a pair of speaker cables. So thats Two speakers, two boxes with two power cables, two speaker cables and an interconnect.

The only convinience is that you only need to buy two boxes for your amp/speakers, you still need a source etc.

What gets on my tits is people who buy into a particular brand/type and then declare its the best thing ever. This goes for most stuff, not just the aformentioned brand.

And back to the OP, I dont think seperates will be going the way of the dodo any time soon, the lifestyle market has been taken over with HT setups, and most people who would have bought the budget WHF winners in the 80's now buy a Denon all-in-one as you can actually have it all in one box/two speakers, or an iPod Dock.

Hifi is an aspirational hobby, so people will always want the next best thing.

 

[Sizzers]

Box swapping is OCD.I should know with what I keep swapping around (even Mr P would be impressed!), but on a purely personal note it hasn't particularly made me happier and confusion reigns. Amongst other set-ups my last stable one was Marantz CD6003/PM6003/Dali Lektor 1, wth occasional Focal 706V's thrown in. Loved it!, but then a nice redundancy payment at the beginning of the year changed things (I think it's called upgraditis).I now have an all Rega system consisting of Rega Apollo (non-R)/Rega Brio-R/Rega RS1. Initially it blew me away; surprisingly good scale, amazing detail and presentation (weird bass apart from the RS1's), never missed a beat and everything turns on a sixpence, but now it makes my ears bleed. In between getting this set-up together, on a bit of a whim I bought the Marantz M-CR603 and initial impressions were kinda....WOW! Then I decided it didn't quite have the "detail" I was looking for, hence the Rega set-up (I like a highly detailed sound with some warmth, but the two are not necessarily compatible).I very seriously considered the Arcam Solo Mini instead of the Rega kit. I would have had to have become re-acquainted with it is as it has been a long time since I've heard it. but I found it very impressive the last time I did hear it. Because of the deals I found on the CDP and speakers I went down the Rega route instead.So now I'm (almost) full circle back to my "one box" Marantz with my beloved Lektor's. Lot warmer, detailed (but not enough! lol), and very happy....until tomorrow!

Box swapping is OCD.

I should know with what I keep swapping around (even Mr P would be impressed!), but on a purely personal note it hasn't particularly made me happier and confusion reigns. Amongst other set-ups my last stable one was Marantz CD6003/PM6003/Dali Lektor 1, wth occasional Focal 706V's thrown in. Loved it!, but then a nice redundancy payment at the beginning of the year changed things (I think it's called upgraditis).

I now have an all Rega system consisting of Rega Apollo (non-R)/Rega Brio-R/Rega RS1. Initially it blew me away; surprisingly good scale, amazing detail and presentation (restrained bass apart from the RS1's), it never misses a beat and everything turns on a sixpence, but now it makes my ears bleed. In between getting this set-up together, on a bit of a whim I bought the Marantz M-CR603 and initial impressions were kinda....WOW! Then I decided it didn't quite have the "detail" I was looking for, hence the Rega set-up (I like a highly detailed sound with some warmth, but the two are not necessarily compatible).

I very seriously considered the Arcam Solo Mini instead of the Rega kit. I would have had to have become re-acquainted with it is as it has been a long time since I've heard it. but I found it very impressive when I did. Because of the deals I found on the CDP and speakers I went down the Rega route instead.

So now I'm (almost) full circle back to my "one box" Marantz with my beloved Lektor's. Lot warmer, detailed (but not enough! lol), and very happy....until tomorrow!

 

[moon]

good speakers those lektors sizzers! well made and all.

 

[Sizzers]

good speakers those lektors sizzers! well made and all.

Well of the three pairs I have they would be the last I'd sell.

They're on stands at the mo, but in the other room I had them wall-mounted which to me makes them sound better.

 

[moon]

Box swapping is OCD.I should know with what I keep swapping around (even Mr P would be impressed!), but on a purely personal note it hasn't particularly made me happier and confusion reigns. Amongst other set-ups my last stable one was Marantz CD6003/PM6003/Dali Lektor 1, wth occasional Focal 706V's thrown in. Loved it!, but then a nice redundancy payment at the beginning of the year changed things (I think it's called upgraditis).I now have an all Rega system consisting of Rega Apollo (non-R)/Rega Brio-R/Rega RS1. Initially it blew me away; surprisingly good scale, amazing detail and presentation (weird bass apart from the RS1's), never missed a beat and everything turns on a sixpence, but now it makes my ears bleed. In between getting this set-up together, on a bit of a whim I bought the Marantz M-CR603 and initial impressions were kinda....WOW! Then I decided it didn't quite have the "detail" I was looking for, hence the Rega set-up (I like a highly detailed sound with some warmth, but the two are not necessarily compatible).I very seriously considered the Arcam Solo Mini instead of the Rega kit. I would have had to have become re-acquainted with it is as it has been a long time since I've heard it. but I found it very impressive the last time I did hear it. Because of the deals I found on the CDP and speakers I went down the Rega route instead.So now I'm (almost) full circle back to my "one box" Marantz with my beloved Lektor's. Lot warmer, detailed (but not enough! lol), and very happy....until tomorrow!

Box swapping is OCD.

I should know with what I keep swapping around (even Mr P would be impressed!), but on a purely personal note it hasn't particularly made me happier and confusion reigns. Amongst other set-ups my last stable one was Marantz CD6003/PM6003/Dali Lektor 1, wth occasional Focal 706V's thrown in. Loved it!, but then a nice redundancy payment at the beginning of the year changed things (I think it's called upgraditis).

I now have an all Rega system consisting of Rega Apollo (non-R)/Rega Brio-R/Rega RS1. Initially it blew me away; surprisingly good scale, amazing detail and presentation (restrained bass apart from the RS1's), it never misses a beat and everything turns on a sixpence, but now it makes my ears bleed. In between getting this set-up together, on a bit of a whim I bought the Marantz M-CR603 and initial impressions were kinda....WOW! Then I decided it didn't quite have the "detail" I was looking for, hence the Rega set-up (I like a highly detailed sound with some warmth, but the two are not necessarily compatible).

I very seriously considered the Arcam Solo Mini instead of the Rega kit. I would have had to have become re-acquainted with it is as it has been a long time since I've heard it. but I found it very impressive when I did. Because of the deals I found on the CDP and speakers I went down the Rega route instead.

So now I'm (almost) full circle back to my "one box" Marantz with my beloved Lektor's. Lot warmer, detailed (but not enough! lol), and very happy....until tomorrow!

The other thing that makes me smile, is when I put my headphones on via my ipad for a bit of headfi and it blows away any Hifi Ive ever heard.

 

[moon]

good speakers those lektors sizzers! well made and all.

Well of the three pairs I have they would be the last I'd sell.

They're on stands at the mo, but in the other room I had them wall-mounted which to me makes them sound better.

I concur with your findings

 

[CnoEvil]

If this statement is true, then Hi-End stuff is probably on the way out as well....which is unlikely to be honest!