Are separates on borrowed time?

[John Duncan]

Sorry, just had to edit the title to spell it correctly. Was nagging me and I couldn't work out why.

 

[busb]

Not as much as CDs are!

 

[fr0g]

I really hope not ray: at least not in my lifetime but I suppose separates will eventually only be affordable to rich audiophiles who want to try and achieve the best sound quality possible, and that is likely to be a very small number of people .

It has taken me years to put my separates system together and get it sounding exactly as I want it, I can turn out the lights and it sounds as close to a live performance as I have ever heard , It's magical and I would not swap my separates for anything else no matter how convenient it was

To acheive the "best sound possible" active crossovers would be prefered over passive though...

Anyway, I agree with Ben.

Most music consumption now is portable, computer or lifestyle.

I think there is plenty of life left in passive speakers though. Unless the whole industry starts making actives (both passive and active crossover type) then the AV industry will keep it going and for now, AV processors cost MORE than the same with built in power amps...presumably as they aim at a more esoteric market rather than any increase in product costs.

I'd personally never buy another stereo amp or dedicated CD player, but would have no problem upgrading my AV, and for the moment I'm more than happy with my Ikon/Vokal front 3 speakers, although money no object I'd get an AV processor and some active 3-way floorstanders!

Longer term though, I would suggest the future is in wireless speakers with built in amplification and DACs whether it be small dock-like things with blue tooth, airplay, wifi etc or more "audiophile" products like the Dynaudio Xeo and the Audio Pro Living.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Separates were on borrowed time from about 2001.

Nostradamus probably foretold the end of separates as well

The only item that will disappear over the next few years will be the CD player, but even then, I doubt it'll totally disappear for quite a while yet. People are still buying turntables and streamers, so will still need amplification.

Speakers are such a personal choice with regards to looks as well as their sound, that small active bookshelf speakers aren't the holy grail of answers.

Hi-Fi separates are a niche market. But active speakers are a niche within that niche, and therefore won't be 'taking over' as the next best thing. If they were, they will have already done so years ago.

 

[fr0g]

But active speakers are a niche within that niche, and therefore won't be 'taking over' as the next best thing. If they were, they will have already done so years ago.

Availability,choice? Since "years ago" how many living room friendly actives have there been? Now how many endless upgrades to countless passives have there been? QED.

Possibly something to do with dealers not wanting to lose the massive proifits available on separates?

 

[Ryan92]

I think the "chop and change" nature of separates will always appeal to the hobbyist. Personally, I think there will always be actives and passives. It's only our source material that will change. From CDs to HDDs and now the new ultra books are coming with miniscle SSDs on them I think we will probably be looking to products that will stream from cloud based services with terrabytes of Hi res stuff.

It's all going to need amplifying though, I can see more and more amps coming with a DAC built in, but a few now seem to have it as an optional extra.

Bearing all this in mind. I still bought some AVIs. They are just the riht product for me

 

[shooter]

Nup.

 

[Frank Harvey]

But active speakers are a niche within that niche, and therefore won't be 'taking over' as the next best thing. If they were, they will have already done so years ago.

Availability,choice? Since "years ago" how many living room friendly actives have there been? Now how many endless upgrades to countless passives have there been? QED.

Possibly something to do with dealers not wanting to lose the massive proifits available on separates?

If enough people came through our door asking about active speakers, we'd consider keeping them. As it stands, you're talking about one person every four months. That's not enough to justify us keeping a range of actives with some alternatives. Sorry.

If you think there's massive profits in separates, then please do open up your own store, then you'll face a startling reality.

 

[shooter]

If enough people came through our door asking about active speakers, we'd consider keeping them. As it stands, you're talking about one person every four months. That's not enough to justify us keeping a range of actives with some alternatives. Sorry.

Thats fair enough and my experiance also. Trying to get an in store demo at local dealers was neigh on impossible, managed to find one pair of Dyns at an Audio T out of 6 or so locals.

Bartletts are good for actives but a trip into town for me.

 

[Anonymous]

If you think there's massive profits in separates, then please do open up your own store, then you'll face a startling reality.

...one where the market is shrinking in this country, prices are ever increasing and similar shops are closing. Sounds great.

 

[John Duncan]

Possibly something to do with dealers not wanting to lose the massive proifits available on separates?

Presumably those who manufacture active speakers do so out of the kindness of their own hearts?

 

[shooter]

...

Off topic: What happened to the avatar igglebert, i liked those brows.

 

[Frank Harvey]

If you think there's massive profits in separates, then please do open up your own store, then you'll face a startling reality.

...one where the market is shrinking in this country, prices are ever increasing and similar shops are closing. Sounds great.

The amount of dealers may be reducing, but that'll reduce to a point where it will stabilise, and you may then see new dealers springing up to take advantage of the lack of dealers.

Prices of products increase, that's the nature of the beast. Once they rise so high, other products are created beneath them.

 

[Ryan92]

Thinking about it, you could assume that actives could pertain the oppertunity for greater mark ups. A seperates convert (such as myself) would be looking at something like a set of ADM9s and see three things, an amp, DAC and a pretty decent set of speakers. Now I'm yet to find a system containing those components that sounds as good for around the same money. So can justify spending the money. I'm not saying all of the money from amps DACs etc goes on styling, but a fairly significant profit could be made if they ignored those and just sold you some components. Which is essentially what active manufacturers do, they just hide them nicely in a speaker. Whether or not they use this money for technological developments is up for the listeners to decide. But if they were a good alternative, then you could make something that sounds just as good as, say a PM6004 and some BX2s with a bit of cable (say £500) and save yourself some money whilst providing a more convinient solution for your client?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Thinking about it, you could assume that actives could pertain the oppertunity for greater mark ups. A seperates convert (such as myself) would be looking at something like a set of ADM9s and see three things, an amp, DAC and a pretty decent set of speakers. Now I'm yet to find a system containing those components that sounds as good for around the same money. So can justify spending the money. I'm not saying all of the money from amps DACs etc goes on styling, but a fairly significant profit could be made if they ignored those and just sold you some components. Which is essentially what active manufacturers do, they just hide them nicely in a speaker. Whether or not they use this money for technological developments is up for the listeners to decide. But if they were a good alternative, then you could make something that sounds just as good as, say a PM6004 and some BX2s with a bit of cable (say £500) and save yourself some money whilst providing a more convinient solution for your client?

A DAC can be purchased for as little as £150 (there's even cheaper on the internet), so that just leaves a pair of speakers and an amp to find within the budget you're speaking of.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Possibly something to do with dealers not wanting to lose the massive proifits available on separates?

Presumably those who manufacture active speakers do so out of the kindness of their own hearts?

 

[Ryan92]

Ah, that's sort of what I'm saying, say on the DAC, maybe 5% (totally made up but the idea sort of works no matter what the number) of the price goes into the design, casing materials etc. then again on the amp. All I'm saying is that if the ideal system (for most people) was indeed a set of actives with a DAC in. Then an active manufacturer could create something with identical components to a passive system (all theoretically, of course) with a bigger mark up than a passive equivalent. That's of course assuming that the reason to buy actives is that they are a better way around making a system than a passive system. I happened to have ordered a set just because I think these particular ones sound better than any passive system I've heard in the same price bracket.

 

[John Duncan]

Do you - in your ideal world - want these companies to be punished with ultimate bankruptcy and the loss of thousands of jobs, their taxes etc. just because some active speakers can be shown to be - technically - better than passive ones used with seperates systems?

I thought it was the dealers who were raking it in? Best lump them in too...

 

[John Duncan]

(Exodus)

Exeunt, surely?

 

[chebby]

Exeunt, surely?

...chased by a bear.

 

[John Duncan]

One from here, presumably:

 

[steve_1979]

Are separates on borrowed time?

Although the separates market is shrinking I think that they'll be around for quite a while yet. Though high end separates are already a very small niche market when compared to AV and lifestyle systems (docks, streamers etc).

The market for pro audio active speakers is also bigger than separates but I'm not sure if actives will ever replace passives as the accepted norm in peoples living rooms.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think "some people here" are saying that, Chebby. I think you're reading into it a bit.

I don't think actives have anything to do with a potentially shrinking separates market. There's probably a lot of reasons for such change. Decling disposable incomes, boom in portable audio, integration of products and services, ever increasing prices for buying multiple PSUs/cases/cables/DAC/pre-amp/power-amps/etc/etc/etc.

Those names that you reel off, Chebby, are probably going to keep (very) afloat by selling into emerging markets like China. The UK will just sit at the side and enjoy the benefits. Benefits like amps with built-in DACs, multiple finishes for speakers, new products every year. These are benefits to a niche market.

FWIW, products like AVI ADMs probably appeal more outside this niche market. AVI certainly think that. Most people think multiple boxes, cables and monsterous choice is a disadvantage when all you want to do is play music at high quality.

 

[John Duncan]

FWIW, products like AVI ADMs probably appeal more outside this niche market. AVI certainly think that. Most people think multiple boxes, cables and monsterous choice is a disadvantage when all you want to do is play music at high quality.

I disagree, but not because I think that active speakers are less 'niche' - I think they're more niche, since most people don't 'get' computer audio whilst far more 'get' CD, and actives require a PC or another source, so the same number of boxes as an MR-C503, say. Furthermore, you can't buy them in shops or on Amazon. How would you find out about ADMs, say, if you were just looking for 'a stereo'? What would you google for?

Anyway, what's niche in the first place is wanting to play music at high quality.

 

[shooter]

FWIW, products like AVI ADMs probably appeal more outside this niche market. AVI certainly think that. Most people think multiple boxes, cables and monsterous choice is a disadvantage when all you want to do is play music at high quality.

Well, i have a CDP an amp and pair of speakers (TT gone), 2 boxes, 2 speakers and 4 cables (pair ic's and a pair sc's).

To run AVI's you need a PC and a ATV or AEX, 2 boxes, 2 speakers and one cable, AVI users are better off by 3 cables. :shifty: