Amp to replace Nait 5

[plarge]

e a relatively old system consisting of Pioneer Pd s-06 cd player, Naim Nait 5 and Ruark Talisman 2 speakers. I am looking to spend up to 2k on an upgrade. The sound is great but turns harsh on busier passages. I listen to varied music, Pat Metheny, Cinematic Orchestra, Cassandra Wilson, Bugge Wesseltoft etc

I naturally assumed that the cd player would be the weak link, so have auditioned a number of players up to 2k both in my system and at dealers, and have been amazed that it has held it's own with all (Leema stream, Quad, cyrus, Arcam) Only the electrocompaniet Ecd -1 and the Copland CD823 were what I would class as better...the pioneer is built like a tank, and has a very forthright sound, similar to the old Naim CD 3.5..

So, I have always felt that the Nait wasn't doing the Ruarks justice; I have just auditioned the new Naim 152/155 in my system, and was staggered by the results - loads more grip, coherence, drive - the Ruarks finally seemed to be singing. I still got the impression, however, that I was missing some tonal colour to the music, which I had heard in other systems. I tried the Primare I30, which lacked the grip of the Naims, but added a level of colour to the sound. Still not entirely staisfactory, but MUCH more improvement than spending the same amount on a CD player.

I then tried the Sugden A21 Mk 2 - and was blown away. Everything sounded beautiful - timing was superb, but the music started to make sense - I wasn't listening critically to the hifi anymore - I just wanted to listen!!

Fantastic, you might think - my concern is that buying the Sugden limits my speaker upgrade options - the Ruarks are 10 years old, and at some stage are going to need replacing. How well will the Sugden drive speakers around the 2k mark - I love Thiel CS 1.6.

Also, is there another integrated / pre-power out there which will sing like the sugden without the compromises in terms of power / headroom, and which will still time like a Naim?

Thirdly, I was under the impression that CD Replay had come a long way - how can the Pioneer (a 600 pound purchase 9 years ago) Compete so effectively (Not just my opinion - the dealers could find no argument to sell me the player having heard the comparisons!!) against players up to 2k today??

I live in Wales, so have to travel a fair way to any dealer. How would the electrocompaniet or a copland amp compare to the Sugden? They seem to offer simiar "Sound" but with more power?

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

if you mean the electrocompaniet classic series then the current amps are brilliant but they wont give you the prat of the naim

that said the copland cd player plus eci-3 is the best combination ive heard in a long time but think youll be looking for a speaker upgrade not long after

havent heard sugden but by all accounts their excellent

 

[chebby]

plarge: I then tried the Sugden A21 Mk 2 - and was blown away. Everything sounded beautiful - timing was superb, but the music started to make sense - I wasn't listening critically to the hifi anymore - I just wanted to listen!!

Fantastic, you might think - my concern is that buying the Sugden limits my speaker upgrade options - the Ruarks are 10 years old, and at some stage are going to need replacing. How well will the Sugden drive speakers around the 2k mark

I think you must buy that Sugden. Good chance that you will not be able to get the same sound with someone else's gear. (The pure 'class A', solid state A21 design is pretty unique, apart from a couple of - way more expensive - Luxman giants.) If you have found exactly the sound you want then you are lucky. It will only haunt you and make you unhappy if you compromise by getting something else instead.

Don't worry about the cost of partnering speakers. Worry more about efficiency. At the "2k mark" you mentioned, I would suggest looking into Living Voice Auditorium speakers (around £2400 for the 'base' model with passive crossovers.) At around 94db efficiency they are highly favoured by the Valve amplifier crowd and should be a good match. (LV even make mention of Sugden users on their FAQ page.)

I think there is also a Tannoy Prestige dual-concentric speaker (Sandringham SE or Stirling SE?) that is around £2700 and is about 91db (8 ohms) that might be worth looking out for.

 

[Anonymous]

I would recommend trying to hunt out a Musical Fidelity A1 (the new one). It's a similar concept to the Sugden with heavy bias to class A. It also includes a built in DAC (only a wee sub-feature rather than a premium-adding addition).

The A1 will probably sound more rhythmic than the Sugden but still has lots of class A magic. Well worth an audition and it might give you more of the Naim stuff than the Sugden.

Having said all that, it sounds like you've found something you love so maybe you should just buy it.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

plarge:

e a relatively old system consisting of Pioneer Pd s-06 cd player, Naim Nait 5 and Ruark Talisman 2 speakers. I am looking to spend up to 2k on an upgrade. The sound is great but turns harsh on busier passages. I listen to varied music, Pat Metheny, Cinematic Orchestra, Cassandra Wilson, Bugge Wesseltoft etc

I naturally assumed that the cd player would be the weak link, so have auditioned a number of players up to 2k both in my system and at dealers, and have been amazed that it has held it's own with all (Leema stream, Quad, cyrus, Arcam) Only the electrocompaniet Ecd -1 and the Copland CD823 were what I would class as better...the pioneer is built like a tank, and has a very forthright sound, similar to the old Naim CD 3.5..

So, I have always felt that the Nait wasn't doing the Ruarks justice; I have just auditioned the new Naim 152/155 in my system, and was staggered by the results - loads more grip, coherence, drive - the Ruarks finally seemed to be singing. I still got the impression, however, that I was missing some tonal colour to the music, which I had heard in other systems. I tried the Primare I30, which lacked the grip of the Naims, but added a level of colour to the sound. Still not entirely staisfactory, but MUCH more improvement than spending the same amount on a CD player.

I then tried the Sugden A21 Mk 2 - and was blown away. Everything sounded beautiful - timing was superb, but the music started to make sense - I wasn't listening critically to the hifi anymore - I just wanted to listen!!

Fantastic, you might think - my concern is that buying the Sugden limits my speaker upgrade options - the Ruarks are 10 years old, and at some stage are going to need replacing. How well will the Sugden drive speakers around the 2k mark - I love Thiel CS 1.6.

Also, is there another integrated / pre-power out there which will sing like the sugden without the compromises in terms of power / headroom, and which will still time like a Naim?

Thirdly, I was under the impression that CD Replay had come a long way - how can the Pioneer (a 600 pound purchase 9 years ago) Compete so effectively (Not just my opinion - the dealers could find no argument to sell me the player having heard the comparisons!!) against players up to 2k today??

I live in Wales, so have to travel a fair way to any dealer. How would the electrocompaniet or a copland amp compare to the Sugden? They seem to offer simiar "Sound" but with more power?

Paul

Hi Paul

If you can stretch your budget than i would suggest that you consider ATC's SIA2-150 MK2 amplifier at £2376. It has a 150w/ch class A biased (up to 2/3 output) grounded source FET amplifier that delivers the high current and damping factor to control most passive speakers. It is truly superb with a neutral, uncoloured, natural and powerful presentation that will enable the ATC to happily sit in between the Pioneer cdp and the Ruark speakers by bringing out the finest from them. It's performance/power potential will also acomodate many component changes later on for many years to come.

Btw, the SIA2-150 MK2 also has pre outs so that a power amplifier such as the new P1 can also be added.

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[plarge]

Sounds like just what I'm after - something is telling me that along the line I will miss the PRT and control of the naim; at the moment, I just crave the tonality and musical colours I have been missing which the Sugden has in spades! Review of the Ruark at the time stated they were regularly being used with extraordinarily priced systems and still showing improvements, so I would really like to do them justice. Do you do the ATC at musicraft?? I'm about 1.5 hours from Derby - I've driven further only to be dissapointed!!

Thanks

Paul

 

[chebby]

Why are you trying to persuade yourself out of buying an amp you really like so much?

 

[plarge]

Hi - my concern is

a) that the sugden represents a comletely different direction - I have been an avid fan of the Naim linn sound for years - had a par of Linn Kan / Naim amps and loved the total commitment to the music that this offered.

At the moment, I am missing the tonality and musicality the sugden brings, and the Sugden sounded wonderful in the context of my system - revelling in the clean, precise sound of the Pioneer, and replaying beautifully through the Ruarks. There was less punch, less drive than with the Naim, which seemed to "Control" the speakers better, and it's a compromise which I'm not sure I'm totally comfortable with - I have only heard the 3 amps in comparison. My heart is telling me to buy the Sugden, my head is telling me to audition a few more good options to ensure the 2k is best spent....

Hope this makes sense!!

PAul

 

[MUSICRAFT]

plarge:

Sounds like just what I'm after - something is telling me that along the line I will miss the PRT and control of the naim; at the moment, I just crave the tonality and musical colours I have been missing which the Sugden has in spades! Review of the Ruark at the time stated they were regularly being used with extraordinarily priced systems and still showing improvements, so I would really like to do them justice. Do you do the ATC at musicraft?? I'm about 1.5 hours from Derby - I've driven further only to be dissapointed!!

Thanks

Paul

Hi Paul

Thanks for your post.

Yes, i do stock the ATC SIA2-150 MK2 amplfier and i have customers who have travelled from Wales.

For the last hour i have been listening to the ATC with the Chord Electronics Chordette Gem and Monitor Audio's PL100 speakers and it sounds fantastic. The ATC's low distortion and superb control ensures that pace, timing, colour, subtlety, soundstage, inner detail, grip, rhythm, dynamics etc. are reproduced accurately in a neutral and natural manner that is free of colourations.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Frank Harvey]

Don't you just love brochure talk.....

plarge: I naturally assumed that the cd player would be the weak link, so have auditioned a number of players up to 2k both in my system and at dealers, and have been amazed that it has held it's own with all (Leema stream, Quad, cyrus, Arcam) Only the electrocompaniet Ecd -1 and the Copland CD823 were what I would class as better...the pioneer is built like a tank, and has a very forthright sound, similar to the old Naim CD 3.5..The PDS-06, along with the PD77, were excellent CD players - I still have a soft spot for Pioneer's Stable Platter CD players, I think they were well ahead of anything else. Companies like Wadia and Teac used their mechanism, so there must have been something to it.

So, I have always felt that the Nait wasn't doing the Ruarks justice; I have just auditioned the new Naim 152/155 in my system, and was staggered by the results - loads more grip, coherence, drive - the Ruarks finally seemed to be singing. I still got the impression, however, that I was missing some tonal colour to the music, which I had heard in other systems. I tried the Primare I30, which lacked the grip of the Naims, but added a level of colour to the sound. Still not entirely staisfactory, but MUCH more improvement than spending the same amount on a CD player. I'm surprised. I like the Talismans, great value for money. They did need an amplifier on the warmer side of neutral to give them a bit of body - they went very well with the Arcam Alpha 10 amp and power amp. I'm surprised the Naim lacked. I mean, I can understand the Talismans needing more, but the Nait 5 should be fine with it. Maybe it's because it wasn't the italic i version.

I then tried the Sugden A21 Mk 2 - and was blown away. Everything sounded beautiful - timing was superb, but the music started to make sense - I wasn't listening critically to the hifi anymore - I just wanted to listen!!

Fantastic, you might think - my concern is that buying the Sugden limits my speaker upgrade options - the Ruarks are 10 years old, and at some stage are going to need replacing. How well will the Sugden drive speakers around the 2k mark - I love Thiel CS 1.6. Judging by this comment, I think you've found the amp you need. The A21 is a cracking amp, and can drive some speakers in a way that many more powerful amps struggle. You'll struggle to find an amp that does what the Sugden does. Even the MF's, which are Class A biased, just lack something the Sugdens have by the lorryload.

If you'd like to take things a step further though, try the A21SE. This is a more powerful version of the A21, and is built like a £2k amp should be, and looks like a £2k amp should. Again, there are pre/powers that will struggle against this.

Thirdly, I was under the impression that CD Replay had come a long way - how can the Pioneer (a 600 pound purchase 9 years ago) Compete so effectively (Not just my opinion - the dealers could find no argument to sell me the player having heard the comparisons!!) against players up to 2k today??You'd be surprised. It does take a well designed CD player to manage this though. If you'd have come to me I'd have not even bothered trying to sell you another CD player!

One of the reasons it is so good is it's stable platter mechanism, which worked extremely well even on Pioneer's cheaper models. But the PDS-06 and the PD77 were a good step up not only in the build department , but also sound as they used much better DAC's too. Have owned a PDS901 many years ago, I almost bought a PDS904 recently (one step down at £400), which went on ebay for £26. A steal. Also, Pioneer had a process whereby it would extrapolate the data that it thought should be in the CD signal above 20kHz - as you know, CD's are capped at 20kHz. The thinking behind this was that even though you can't hear above kHz, the frequencies above this in the signal would affect those frequencies you would hear below 20kHz. Views on this were mixed, but no one could deny they sounded very different to any other CD player out there - they were actually more analogue sounding! Come back Pioneer........

 

[Anonymous]

plarge:

Sounds like just what I'm after - something is telling me that along the line I will miss the PRT and control of the naim; at the moment, I just crave the tonality and musical colours I have been missing which the Sugden has in spades! Review of the Ruark at the time stated they were regularly being used with extraordinarily priced systems and still showing improvements, so I would really like to do them justice. Do you do the ATC at musicraft?? I'm about 1.5 hours from Derby - I've driven further only to be dissapointed!!

Thanks

Paul

If you're going on a long drive for an Amp audition, you should take your speakers and cables with you. Room furnishings maybe more problematic.

 

[Anonymous]

also you should book demos with other dealers

no doubt at all that rick is sincere but he is possibly biased towards the products he sells and possibly hasnt heard the others that have been mentioned here so cant make a comparison

 

[MUSICRAFT]

one off:

also you should book demos with other dealers

no doubt at all that rick is sincere but he is possibly biased towards the products he sells and possibly hasnt heard the others that have been mentioned here so cant make a comparison

Hi one off

Thanks for your post.

I have suggested the ATC SIA2-150 MK2 amplifier to Paul (plarge) as i feel it will give him an alternative make/product to also consider that he might not have ordinarily looked at (for amplification anyway).

I believe the SIA2-150 MK2's low distortion, power/control coupled with a neutral, uncoloured and natural reproduction helps it exhibit many of the qualities of the amps mentioned. It has the drive/grip of Naim, the fludity of Electrocompaniet, the detail of Primare, the naturalness of the Sugden and the coherence of Copland and than some.

At the end of the day the SIA2-150 MK2 is only my recommendation to Paul. I am happy to support Paul's decision whether he likes what he sees and hears of the SIA2-150 MK2 or not. I trust that Paul will give the ATC a go and he is more than welcome to visit me in Derby. As i said in one of my earlier posts i already have customers who have travelled from Wales. Besides which it will be great to meet another forum member.

Btw, i am also aware of the pedigree of Pioneer's cd players as i have owned/sold players such as PD-91, PD-65, PD-75, PD-93, PD-S95, PD-S901, PD-S904 and PD-S505 Precision. I also nearly bought a PD-S06 ten years ago (with it superb Stable Platter Mechansim and Pioneer's Hi-bit Legato Link Conversion S technology) but instead opted for Cyrus's fantastic (the original) Discmaster cd transport, Dacmaster and two PSX-R's.

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Frank Harvey]

I was inches from buying a PDS06 just as they were being phased out, but I just couldn't bring myself to buy anything which wasn't black and upset the system.....by then the PD77 had gone

 

[plarge]

I agree - Pioneer Pd s-06 looks horrible, big gold thing, BUT it is a delight to used, and still sounding far more enjoyable than it's price and age would suggest!!

Thanks for the advice - I think I need to listen to the ATC, and the Sugden A21SE and electrocompaniet and decide - I think Derby may be calling for the ATC!!

Interestingly, I heard the Pioneer through the DAC of a Quad cdp 992 and it sounded a huge leap in quality from the quad via it's own transport - clean, concise, clear and an amazing amount of detail - although a little bit much through the Naim and Ruarks it would suit a warmer system down to the ground.

PAul

 

[MUSICRAFT]

plarge:

I agree - Pioneer Pd s-06 looks horrible, big gold thing, BUT it is a delight to used, and still sounding far more enjoyable than it's price and age would suggest!!

Thanks for the advice - I think I need to listen to the ATC, and the Sugden A21SE and electrocompaniet and decide - I think Derby may be calling for the ATC!!

Interestingly, I heard the Pioneer through the DAC of a Quad cdp 992 and it sounded a huge leap in quality from the quad via it's own transport - clean, concise, clear and an amazing amount of detail - although a little bit much through the Naim and Ruarks it would suit a warmer system down to the ground.

PAul

Hi Paul

Thanks for your post.

As i said earlier and if are referring to visiting me in Derby to listen to ATC's SIA2-150 MK2 amplifier than you are more than welcome to do so.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[plarge]

Thanks!!

So, the next question is, Being a Naim, I have Chord Solid interconnect, and NacA5 speaker cable - going non-Naim gives me the chance to experiment!! Whet options do I have, and how much is a good ballpark beyond which I will see scant improvement? I've heard good things from MIT interconnect....Any help would be appreciated!!

Thanks

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

I have an old pioneer Pd-S703 cdp and am not so sure if my marantz CD63 MKII K1 sig is all that much better ... never misses a beat ... a bit large and reads cd's upside down, but works superb

forget about the naim

.... get a good used pioneer Sa-9800 ... they are a bit rare, but search worldwide as they work on all currents ... cheap from the US (under £200 and expect to pay £80 shipping, but you won't be dissapointed

costs less than £100 to recap and service and reset to factory spec ... built like a tank and will last you another 30 years

 

[matthewpiano]

I'm surprised at this. The Nait 5 is an excellent amplifier. I think some serious comparative auditioning is going to be the only way.

 

[chebby]

dim_span:forget about the naim

.... get a good used pioneer Sa-9800 ... they are a bit rare, but search worldwide as they work on all currents ... cheap from the US (under £200 and expect to pay £80 shipping, but you won't be dissapointed

If we all followed your advice...

1) There would such a huge demand for the SA-9800 that it's price would go through the roof.*

2) We would all have your system and have nothing to talk about.

3) Amp manufacturers would go bust (or start trading in re-vamping used Pioneer amps.)

* I speculate that you actually hate your Pioneer amp and really want a Naim system, but to get the money you have started a campaign to 'talk up' the SA-9800 so that it's google profile improves and the ebay value rockets and you can sell at the peak of the market.

(Either that or you have been buying out the world supply of used SA-9800's and have a 'Trotter's Independent Traders' style lock-up full of them.)

 

[plarge]

Ok - before this takes a wrong turn, I have through the process of auditioning defined the Nait 5 as the component I need to replace, as I get the greatest performance gains from this.

I'm not a hifi "Tuner" I just want to buy a new amp for around 2000 quid - and once again through a process of auditioning found I prefer the music created by a Sugden A21 to a naim 155 150 or Primare I30 in the context of my system.

I now have a shortlist of Sugden, electrocopmpaniet EC1-3 and (At the top end of the price range ) ATC integrated. I am asing if (Coming from Naim and not having much experience of the interconnect options available to me or relative budgets) anyone would have advice in this area -

All due respect, I'm not going to buy an old Pioneer amp - I am keeping the pioneer cd player because it was competitive with all players under 2000 which I auditioned, both in the context of my system and a number of dealer's.

Thanks in advance for all advice!!

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

chebby:

dim_span:forget about the naim

.... get a good used pioneer Sa-9800 ... they are a bit rare, but search worldwide as they work on all currents ... cheap from the US (under £200 and expect to pay £80 shipping, but you won't be dissapointed

If we all followed your advice...

1) There would such a huge demand for the SA-9800 that it's price would go through the roof.*

2) We would all have your system and have nothing to talk about.

3) Amp manufacturers would go bust (or start trading in re-vamping used Pioneer amps.)

* I speculate that you actually hate your Pioneer amp and really want a Naim system, but to get the money you have started a campaign to 'talk up' the SA-9800 so that it's google profile improves and the ebay value rockets and you can sell at the peak of the market.

(Either that or you have been buying out the world supply of used SA-9800's and have a 'Trotter's Independent Traders' style lock-up full of them.)

listened to naim .... mmmmmm ... pretty good ... but not better! ... SA-9800 is more detailed ... I could buy a naim setup, ... was looking at getting one on 'terms' over 24 months ... but unless you have heard a Pioneer sa-9800, you cannot really comment ... IMHO not much difference in sound quality, but big difference in price ... even when I auditioned the naim system, the sales guy (old guy) mentioned that he was not so sure if the naim would be all that much better

search google and read what owners have to say ... would I buy another? ... definately! ... would I reccomend one ... most definately! .... bargain of the century! ... so buy one

 

[matthewpiano]

plarge:
Ok - before this takes a wrong turn, I have through the process of auditioning defined the Nait 5 as the component I need to replace, as I get the greatest performance gains from this.

I'm not a hifi "Tuner" I just want to buy a new amp for around 2000 quid - and once again through a process of auditioning found I prefer the music created by a Sugden A21 to a naim 155 150 or Primare I30 in the context of my system.

I now have a shortlist of Sugden, electrocopmpaniet EC1-3 and (At the top end of the price range ) ATC integrated. I am asing if (Coming from Naim and not having much experience of the interconnect options available to me or relative budgets) anyone would have advice in this area -

All due respect, I'm not going to buy an old Pioneer amp - I am keeping the pioneer cd player because it was competitive with all players under 2000 which I auditioned, both in the context of my system and a number of dealer's.

Thanks in advance for all advice!!

Paul

I make no secret of the fact that I am a huge Sugden fan, from the new entry-level Mystro components all the way up to the big Masterclass systems. Their kit is just so engagingly musical and certainly what I would buy if furnished with sufficient finances. One day I hope to have saved enough money to be able to buy a Sugden set-up. When I do, I think it could well be the last major change I ever make.

I wouldn't buy an old Pioneer amp in your position either (no offence dim_span). You've got the chance to buy an amp that will see you through and provide endless musical entertainment and its not a chance to pass up IMO. I'm using 2nd hand gear at present and I'm very pleased with its performance for the amount spent, but my next move will be brand new kit from Rega, which will be the system to last until the Sugden becomes a reality.

 

[Anonymous]

matthew.... with the amount of gear you have previously owned, you will always be upgrading ... you will buy new, and in a few months time, you will want something better, ... be it a cable or interconnect or speakers ... thats the sad thing about this whole game

 

[matthewpiano]

dim_span:matthew.... with the amount of gear you have previously owned, you will always be upgrading ... you will buy new, and in a few months time, you will want something better, ... be it a cable or interconnect or speakers ... thats the sad thing about this whole game

No I won't. I've got a very clear upgrade path set up now with a very enjoyable and talented system to keep me going for the forseeable future. I'm doing it properly from hereon in. A good relationship with a specialist retailer and a steady upgrade path with no knee jerk changes. I'll end up reaching my goal faster and with less expenditure/loss over the long term and more musical enjoyment.

Anyway, back to the OP...