Active setup

[skippy]

Just so I'm not hijacking another thread I'll post here instead.

I'm in Calgary and there are just 2 music stores which have genelec, focal, Adam, Event, Yamaha, Dynaudio, Mackie, Nueman and JBL monitors. The US has more selection of Brit actives, but shipping, customs and the lack of any audition is rendering that a no go.

Mr dotco has mentioned Adam A7x and S2x as capable monitors (S2x are too much at $5500). Noticed a few guys have (and have had actives and gone back to conventional set ups), do you have any tips.

So budget is around $2 - $3k (1200 - 1800 quid If they are jaw dropping), the area is open and about 25' x 25' with a 16' ceiling (Unfortunately treatment is a no go), source is a Sonos Connect and I'll probably be looking at a DAC too, but that is purely to convert the digital output so if a cheapo from Amazon does the job, that'll do.

Also how do you control the volume (would like to keep the Sonos fixed), I've noticed some passive controllers, is that the way to go, is there a remote way to do this?

Alternatively, I'm open if there are any other ideas out there? Early days...

Thanks upfront.

 

[ID.]

At around that budget my first choice would be Adam A7X paired with something like

http://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-dac1-hdr-digital-to-analog-converter

Which would handle the digital to analogue conversion and preamp (volume) duties. It is compact and would allow you to attach several sources.

There are also things like

http://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/3/index.html

Which is pretty much a copy of the above Benchmark product, but considerably cheaper.

I also considered matching the Adams with a Luxman DAC/Preamp, but it had no remote and wasn't compact enough for me. I've also considered trying out a tube DAC/preamp, just to see how much one can tailor the sound.

I currently just run a cheap and simple active setup from my computer with a NuForce Icon HDP doing DAC/preamp duties into a pair of Fostex PM0.4n, but I'll probably upgrade the speakers to Adam A7Xs sooner or later.

Out of the available makes, I'd also be sure to have a listen to the Focal and Event too, in case you prefer their sound. Some people don't seem to get along with the Adam's tweeter.

 

[the record spot]

I've always been impressed by Genelec's sound. Excellent speakers if you can find a dealer in which to try them. Haven't heard a bad model yet and this was from £500 up to £1500 a pair.

 

[skippy]

At around that budget my first choice would be Adam A7X paired with something like

http://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-dac1-hdr-digital-to-analog-converter

Which would handle the digital to analogue conversion and preamp (volume) duties. It is compact and would allow you to attach several sources.

There are also things like

http://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/3/index.html

Which is pretty much a copy of the above Benchmark product, but considerably cheaper.

I also considered matching the Adams with a Luxman DAC/Preamp, but it had no remote and wasn't compact enough for me. I've also considered trying out a tube DAC/preamp, just to see how much one can tailor the sound.

I currently just run a cheap and simple active setup from my computer with a NuForce Icon HDP doing DAC/preamp duties into a pair of Fostex PM0.4n, but I'll probably upgrade the speakers to Adam A7Xs sooner or later.

Out of the available makes, I'd also be sure to have a listen to the Focal and Event too, in case you prefer their sound. Some people don't seem to get along with the Adam's tweeter.

Intruiged with the matrix at 1/4 of the price of the benchmark, but struggling to find many reviews.

So, this venture started with listening to the Dynaudio dbm50's. They're slightly unusual with their angled front baffle, but the thing that stood out was the speed of the drums on MJ's Billie Jean, it was lightning fast, they seemed very detailed and loud for 50 + 50w. In a home setting I'd have to fab up a mount to take out that angle, which defeats the object.

I have a pair of Mackie MR5's in the garage. At $200 for the pair they're really good, they're turned down to 25%. You put your head in between them and the image is right there in front of you, not bad for the money.

I've listened to Yamaha Hs series, Event 20/20, Focal Cms 50/65, Genelec 8020 and the smaller Adams. The ones that stand out so far are the Focal Cms 65, they've seemed the most complete package, pleasing to the ears (and the eyes).

So the next stage is to hear the A7x, Genelecs MO40 and 8040 (MO's are $300 cheaper, each??) And I really want to have a listen to the Focal solo6 be as I've not really heard a bad review on these.

Researching tends to send you round in circles so I need to hopefully time this right to be able to listen to these on the same day and then hopefully get some sort of home demo.

I may end up getting the DAC first then the monitors.

Thanks

 

[richardw42]

Also how do you control the volume (would like to keep the Sonos fixed), I've noticed some passive controllers, is that the way to go, is there a remote way to do this?

Unless you already have a pre that would do the volume. I wouldn't worry about keeping fixed volume on the Sonos.

It makes little to no difference in the real world.

 

[skippy]

Also how do you control the volume (would like to keep the Sonos fixed), I've noticed some passive controllers, is that the way to go, is there a remote way to do this?

Unless you already have a pre that would do the volume. I wouldn't worry about keeping fixed volume on the Sonos.

It makes little to no difference in the real world.

Would the volume be set at max on the monitors if this were the case?

Think I read that the Sonos is bit perfect if the volume is set at fixed, that's why I reverted back.

I'd like to do a test between fixed and variable, but don't have an SPL meter. You can get an app but I don't know how accurate they are?

 

[skippy]

I've always been impressed by Genelec's sound. Excellent speakers if you can find a dealer in which to try them. Haven't heard a bad model yet and this was from £500 up to £1500 a pair.

Funny with the Genelec's, both stores said they wouldn't really be for home listening.

I've heard they're very good for monitoring, but at the same time fatiguing?

Whether or not they don't get decent commission on the sale of these could be another factor.

I need to listen with my own ears to make that opinion.

The MO40's have a composite "green" enclosure and are down on power compared to the 8040's and the port is on the base. Good controls and auto power on/off.

 

[richardw42]

It really depends on the monitors and whether they include volume control.

Eg both my ADM40 & 9 include pre amps. I set the volume on the Sonos at max and control via the speakers remote. I'll admit if I can't find the speaker remote I'll alter volume in the Sonos app.

If I use my DM5s (which don't have a pre). I would just use the Sonos app

for your own piece of mind, I'm sure any good shop would let you compare methods. Just don't let them steer you down the extra equipment ($) route when it's not needed.

 

[The_Lhc]

Think I read that the Sonos is bit perfect if the volume is set at fixed, that's why I reverted back.

Sonos is a 16-bit device using a 24-bit output, the extra 8-bits are used for volume control, so it's actually bit perfect down to a fairly low volume level.

 

[davedotco]

As always a lot will depend on what is available to you and at what prices.

My experience with dealers is that the A7x is the speaker to beat at it's price point. Sure some will prefer other models but for all round compedence the A7x gets my vote too, at around £800 they are great value. The Adam Artist6 is comparable in price (a little more actually but does not need a stand), much prettier and a little more 'reserved' if you know what I mean. You have the space for the A7x, go for them if you like what you hear. For what it is worth my dealer buddies consider the 'sweet spot' for Genelecs to be a little higher up the range.

Set up is a doddle, you can simple go as far as you wish.

Start with just the Sonos Connect, the dac is better than some make out, give it a go straight from the pre-amp outs, it might surprise you.

Add a simple but good quality fixed output dac, see if you can find one based on the O-Dac, an open design by nwavguy. Several manufacturers bring it to market for about £100 in the uk. Setting up is straightforward, use the level controls on the speakers so that the Connect is driving at full output for your normal listening levels, you can use the Sonos volume to turn down to background levels where any effects will be negligeable.

If you really want to use the fixed output then you will need a volume control, ie a dac-preamp. There are plenty of such devices available on line but if you want something from a 'known' hi-fi company you could look at the Dacmagic Plus. Ideally though you would want remote contol and this starts to get expensive. Entry level is something like the Emotiva XDA-2 or the Matrix mentioned above, there are occasionally others available you just have to search what is available to you. Hi-fi components with this level of functionality tend to get expensive, the M-Dac for example, you just need to see what is available.

 

[skippy]

Think I read that the Sonos is bit perfect if the volume is set at fixed, that's why I reverted back.

Sonos is a 16-bit device using a 24-bit output, the extra 8-bits are used for volume control, so it's actually bit perfect down to a fairly low volume level.

So what's the difference (pro and con's) to using fixed or variable?

I've just been switched back and forth between the two and it sounds the same to me (no SPL meter though)

The flexibility of using the app volume control works better for me and may irradicate the need for a DAC.

 

[skippy]

Dave

I've read a couple of snippets about the bass being a light on the A7x and they seem more focused on the midrange. At 42 hz I find that a bit unlikely. Whether it's a comparison to the A8x (38hz) I'm not sure.

The RCA's are currently feeding my A-S500 (this will eventually solely run the garden speakers), as the outputs from my Sonos are used up I may have to split the signal from the optical output and get a cheap fiio DAC to feed the amp. This will free up the RCA. I'm taking it the RCA outputs are unbalanced so there's no point in getting XLR to RCA leads?

Like I said, if I don't need a dac , a preamp, I'd rather do without. It's just more cables, more sockets.

I just need to get this stuff thought out before I go to the listening stage.

Thanks everybody so far :clap:

 

[MattSPL]

I've owned a Matrix Quattro Dac for a couple of years now. I've used it direct into 3 different sets of active speakers, all with great results.

 

[davedotco]

Dave

I've read a couple of snippets about the bass being a light on the A7x and they seem more focused on the midrange. At 42 hz I find that a bit unlikely. Whether it's a comparison to the A8x (38hz) I'm not sure.

The RCA's are currently feeding my A-S500 (this will eventually solely run the garden speakers), as the outputs from my Sonos are used up I may have to split the signal from the optical output and get a cheap fiio DAC to feed the amp. This will free up the RCA. I'm taking it the RCA outputs are unbalanced so there's no point in getting XLR to RCA leads?

Like I said, if I don't need a dac , a preamp, I'd rather do without. It's just more cables, more sockets.

I just need to get this stuff thought out before I go to the listening stage.

Thanks everybody so far :clap:

Evening skip.

As always it depends on what the A7x is being compared with. If you are talking about full size recording monitors then maybe the A7xs are limited at the bass end but coming to them from a hi-fi perspective there really is not an issue that I can see.

If you have a big space to fill the A8x might be a better option, only you can decide, but for most domestic situations the A7x should be ample.

Regarding connection, it is an article of faith amoung 'audiophile' users of the Connect that the fixed (not just variable set to maximum) digital output is the only way to go. The weight of anecdotal evidence is huge but it really is not that difficult to try for yourself, see if you can borrow a dac and try some options, variable (full output) verses fixed is the place to start.

The Connect has one pair of analogue ouputs that you have currently connected to your A-S500 which is fine, use either the coax or digital outputs via a dac to drive your monitors. If you are able try and borrow a few different dacs to try and make up your own mind.

Just use phono to phono leads unless you have a dac with balanced XLRs in which case decent mic leads are the way to go. Try and avoid phono/XLR if you can, far too easy to run into earthing issues.

 

[skippy]

Just called the afore mentioned stores, the first guy I spoke to told me to have a look on't t'internet to see what they stock. I asked him if he could tell me what they had set up, he told me that he'd have to go and look, but at this time he was on the other side of the store (50 feet away max). Ended that conversation and called the store manager who couldn't be more helpful. Unfortunately they only have the budget end.

Called t'other store and he said they "had the F7, but not the good one" (A7x), don't think he realized what he said.

Gonna have a drive into Calgary in the coming week to see if their other branches have any other options.

Don't really want to buy without hearing, but they have a 30 trial period, dunno how that'd work after returning 5 different sets of monitors.

Listening to the comments, maybe the way I need to go now is to get the monitors and connect to the Sonos via the RCA outputs and then in time upgrade to using the DAC.

Matt (or anyone else), did you ever try the Matrix vs Benchmark? I can get the Matrix for roughly 360 quid opposed to the Benchmark dac1 for 600 quid.

I'm pretty much on my own (in my circle of friends) with this "habit" so the chance of borrowing gear is pretty much zero.

Nowt's ever straight forward is it :roll:

 

[richardw42]

The other option is to look out for actives with an optical input. Afaik the AVI ADM9RS aren't available to audition in Canada (I wonder if there's a friendly local owner.

The Quad 9AS could be exciting. They should be out in uk soon, but not sure about elsewhere.

What about the Dynaudio Xeo ?

 

[MattSPL]

I haven't heard the Benchmark Dac, but the Matrix Quattro uses an identical circuit layout as the Dac1 USB, but uses a higher quality volume pot like the Dac1 HDR. If you google Matrix Quattro Head-fi, you'll find some comparisons to the benchmark.

 

[davedotco]

Understand the problems skippy.

I am quite lucky as I live in west London and dealers such as Studiospares carry a lot of product. If you are not going to travel, some distance I imagine, then you need to find a way to move this forward.

Talk to the dealer who has the F7. Do a deal to borrow his demonstrators for a few days, make sure you have a couple of decently long phono cables so you can set them up correctly, on stands etc.

If you like them, buy a pair of of A7xs, if your dealer has to order them in, offer to pay 'upfront' and negotiate a good price.

If you want to try a dac, try Grant Fidelity, their own brand Tubedac is quite interesting and they now claim to be Canadian distributers for Matrix products

 

[skippy]

The other option is to look out for actives with an optical input. Afaik the AVI ADM9RS aren't available to audition in Canada (I wonder if there's a friendly local owner.

The Quad 9AS could be exciting. They should be out in uk soon, but not sure about elsewhere.

What about the Dynaudio Xeo ?

Can't find anything about the AVI's in Canada, but it would've been nice to have a listen to see what the fuss is about.

Not too sure about the Quads, seem a bit retro, shouldn't really matter if they sound right though.

The Xeo's are $2.5k for the s/mounts. I have audience 42's and feel like a change, must've had em for over 10 years.

Shame there's not some decent US manufacturers, would be more obtainable and prices would be more competitive than paying a premium for Euro monitors.

Thanks for the options though.

 

[skippy]

First question to Matt, I noticed on the images for the Quattro that it has a BNC input rather than a coax, how do you get around that?

Dave, we were thinking along the same lines, I've ordered a 15 ft pair of coax/rca cables and they should be here in a week via Amazon. Availability of gear in the UK is one thing I do miss, you can pretty much get anything and fast, as to getting a deal I'm pretty screwed as there's not really any competition.

Grant fidelity are unashamedly importers of Chinese gear, I presume it sounds good, but resale value may be poor, but I'm not going that way. Noticed there was an out of date posting somewhere for GF selling (presumably) an ex demo quattro for $550.

Anyway the DAC will be an upgrade path that I'll take at a later date. Main obstacle is to be able to listen to the monitors in my price range.

 

[MattSPL]

The Quattro comes with a Bnc to rca adaptor so standard rca to rca digital coax cables can be used. Saying that, BNC is a better connection, so I opted for a coax cable that is terminated with rca at one end and BNC at the other.

 

[skippy]

Went to the music store this morning, found the monitor room empty so had a quick look, plugged in th'ipod and off I went

They had Dynaudio bm5a's, focal cms65 and the Adam f7's (not a7x). The dynaudios sounded good, a clearer version of what I have now. The focals had the beating of these, they just seemed sharper, clearer and closer to what I was looking for. One of the sales guys came in at this point and demoed the f7. This by no means was blown away by either of the other 2 LF was similar HF was good and seemed more dispersed with plenty of detail. He stated that they had a 30 day return policy in case I was thinking about the a7x. I'd noticed a pair of genelecs in one corner of the room, slightly scuffed, but clean. He said they were ex demo and on offer and asked if I'd like to hear them? ( when in Rome).

Holy s#@t, bearing in mind, the music was straight off my iPod and they were perched on a shelf, they sound great. I'd read genelecs sounded dry and fatiuging , but (in my ears) this couldn't be further from the truth. The LF was an obvious step up from what I'd been hearing, but the HF was incredible. It seemed almost live, very real in reproduction. I don't know how to fully explain it, but it was spine tingling... An I want it moment. Reminds of the first time I heard my Linn Axis and Creek combo.

Listened to Lambchop, Antonio Forcione, Paolo Nutini and some electronic from Neelix and it felt cool in all genres.

So basically a pair of genelec 8050's for $2k (1200 quid), full warranty and an extra year from the store. I told him I have to speak to the boss and just do as bit of research. Went home and they're $1800 a piece new so I've put a deposit down and he's gonna throw in the cables too.

So for my ears they are the ones, they picked me. Hopefully I'll pick em up over the weekend and try to get em set up, gonna have to make up some serious mounts for these

Anyway, thanks for the help and suggestions :dance:

 

[MattSPL]

Congrats, nice speakers

 

[steve_1979]

Good for you Skippy that's quite a bargain. :dance:

I'm a big fan of Genelec's myself. Lovely sounding speakers but I could never get on with the looks. I usually don't like metal tweeters but Genelec make them work well.

 

[skippy]

Cheers, hopefully they'll sound even better at home.

Genuinely excited :cheers: