A balanced system?

[Al ears]

This is a brilliant thread, so much helpful discussion on these balanced TT set-ups.

At the end of July I will be having a demo of Project's X9 with a DS3B Phono stage, and if all goes to plan I will be taking to the DS3B home on loan to test out as a MM phono stage to see how it compares to my Rega Fono.

My aim is to see if the DS3B is a step up from the Fono in terms of sound quality, if it is then does it also give me a potential 'In' to a balanced system at a later date via a Project TT or alternative.

There is still a question over how far up the chain that 'balance' connection could or should be maintained. Many amps now have balanced inputs and the DS3B has balanced outputs so I wonder if there would be an audible difference between the TT balanced to the DS3B, then balanced into an amp compared to a set up where the TT balanced to the DS3B and then RCA to the amp.

This is going to be an interesting journey.

Why oh why buy a balanced phono stage if you intend to use a Moving Magnet cartridge, or have I missed the point?

Apologies, just re-read the rest of your post.
As I have previously stated once the balanced signal has been stepped up to line level and got to your amp then the major benefit is concluded, in my opinion.
If by X9 you mean the Project Xtension 9 then I don't believe this turntable has balanced outputs, could be wrong.

 

[Oxfordian]

Why oh why buy a balanced phono stage if you intend to use a Moving Magnet cartridge, or have I missed the point?

Apologies, just re-read the rest of your post.
As I have previously stated once the balanced signal has been stepped up to line level and got to your amp then the major benefit is concluded, in my opinion

Please excuse my ignorance and help me through this;

If I have this right the MC output is balanced, in theory to get the best out of the signal the best way would be to send the MC output into a balanced phono stage which then amplifies this signal up to the amplifier?

With my limited understanding I assumed that this balanced signal would be lost if you then sent it via RCA cables from the phono stage the to the amplifier rather than via balanced cables, why is the balance not lost when using RCA or am I overthinking things.

 

[daytona600]

 

[Al ears]

View attachment 4879View attachment 4881View attachment 4881View attachment 4878

Cheers, a new one on me and not the turntable I was thinking of.
Presumably a more expensive version of the X2B which makes me wonder why they didn't call it the X9B..... Never could work out their turntable nomenclature.

 

[Al ears]

Please excuse my ignorance and help me through this;

If I have this right the MC output is balanced, in theory to get the best out of the signal the best way would be to send the MC output into a balanced phono stage which then amplifies this signal up to the amplifier?

With my limited understanding I assumed that this balanced signal would be lost if you then sent it via RCA cables from the phono stage the to the amplifier rather than via balanced cables, why is the balance not lost when using RCA or am I overthinking things.

you are correct in the fact that when RCA cables are employed the balanced signal becomes unbalanced.
If you can input the balanced signal into an amplifier via XLR cables then why not. You are lucky if your amp has that facility.
However, once your signal has been amplified to line level and assuming a short distance between phono preamp and amp then you are unlikely to notice any discernable difference if using RCA cables.

 

[Al ears]

Cheers, a new one on me and not the turntable I was thinking of.
Presumably a more expensive version of the X2B which makes me wonder why they didn't call it the X9B..... Never could work out their turntable nomenclature.

however, where did these photos come from as even Project s own UK website only list up to the X8?

 

[plastic penguin]

however, where did these photos come from as even Project s own UK website only list up to the X8?

They have a X9, or better known as the Xtension 9 their high end jobbie.

 

[Oxfordian]

however, where did these photos come from as even Project s own UK website only list up to the X8?

Henley Audio are I believe the main distributor for Pro-Ject in the UK, they list the Xtension 9, 10 and 12 turntables, all balanced and starting at £2749 rising to £3899.

There is a link on HA’s website taking you to their page on balanced connections where there is an explanation and details of the Project TT that have balanced capability. Link below;

Henley Audio | True Balanced Connections | Welcome to Henley Audio

www.henleyaudio.co.uk

The Xtension 9 with Superpack is the deck that I had demo‘d a few weeks back, this was run into a Primare R35 phono stage, then to Tucana ii amp and out to big Focal floor standers, the set-up sounded superb.

 

[Oxfordian]

you are correct in the fact that when RCA cables are employed the balanced signal becomes unbalanced.
If you can input the balanced signal into an amplifier via XLR cables then why not. You are lucky if your amp has that facility.
However, once your signal has been amplified to line level and assuming a short distance between phono preamp and amp then you are unlikely to notice any discernable difference if using RCA cables.

Thanks @Al ears, that helps a lot.

I am trying to plan long term and with hopefully some money to spend on a system upgrade in the not to distant future I would like to understand how things work which helps challenge some of the techno speak from the sales people.

 

[plastic penguin]

Henley Audio are I believe the main distributor for Pro-Ject in the UK, they list the Xtension 9, 10 and 12 turntables, all balanced and starting at £2749 rising to £3899.

There is a link on HA’s website taking you to their page on balanced connections where there is an explanation and details of the Project TT that have balanced capability. Link below;

Henley Audio | True Balanced Connections | Welcome to Henley Audio

www.henleyaudio.co.uk

The Xtension 9 with Superpack is the deck that I had demo‘d a few weeks back, this was run into a Primare R35 phono stage, then to Tucana ii amp and out to big Focal floor standers, the set-up sounded superb.

Is the Primare phono stage balanced?

 

[daveh75]

Can't be bothered trawling through the entire thread, but I presume this a TT with a balanced output?

It's the definition of polishing a turd, surely?

Given all the other issues with the medium...

 

[Gray]

It's the definition of polishing a turd

Project left that line out of their promotional blurb.

 

[Oxfordian]

Can't be bothered trawling through the entire thread, but I presume this a TT with a balanced output?

It's the definition of polishing a turd, surely?

Given all the other issues with the medium...

Harsh

Never understand why people chip in on a thread that they have absolutely no interest in, vinyl is a great medium and people get a lot of enjoyment out of playing their LP's, what's wrong with that?

 

[Oxfordian]

Is the Primare phono stage balanced?

I was going to say yes, in fact did so then rechecked and realised that it would appear that I was incorrect so deleted the post.

Looking at the blurb it doesn't appear to be balanced as the XLR connections are outputs not inputs, the dealer stated that the X9 and R35 were balanced, clearly that looks to be a bit of bull manure, further investigation required.

Apologies.

 

[Al ears]

Is the Primare phono stage balanced?

if you look at the Project website nothing is fully balanced above the X8..... Odd!

 

[Al ears]

Can't be bothered trawling through the entire thread, but I presume this a TT with a balanced output?

It's the definition of polishing a turd, surely?

Given all the other issues with the medium...

if you cannot assist with answering the OPs question it's sometimes better not to post at all....

 

[Al ears]

They have a X9, or better known as the Xtension 9 their high end jobbie.

They have a X9, or better known as the Xtension 9 their high end jobbie.

Exactly this is the Xtension 9 and not the X9, this is where Project create confusion

 

[Gray]

Looking at the blurb it doesn't appear to be balanced

Indeed not, on its input - but people will (surely) expect it at this R35 price level if balanced becomes generally more mainstream 🤔

 

[Oxfordian]

if you look at the Project website nothing is fully balanced above the X8..... Odd!

This is the link that I use to look at Project gear;

Pro-Ject Audio Systems – Turntables and hifi stereo components since 1991 | Handmade in Europe

www.project-audio.com

And the Xtension 9 page where the blurb states that the TT can be connected via 5 pin to RCA or via optional 5 pin to XLR into the RS2 phono stage.

https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/x-tension-9-evolution/

I think that part of the confusion is that Project list their TT's by range and class anything with the prefix of a 'X' as part of their X Line range.

If I have read the blurb correctly the RPM Carbon 10 has the potential for a balanced output as well. It would seem that the higher end TT's come with a 5 pin to RCA cable as standard but there is a 5 pin to XLR cable available to connect these TT's to a balanced phono stage, clearly Project want you to buy the top end Phono Stage to go with the top end TT.

 

[daveh75]

if you cannot assist with answering the OPs question it's sometimes better not to post at all....

Just pointing out that whether a TT has balanced outputs or not is probably not worth worrying about.

I'm generally not a fan of echo chambers...

 

[Oxfordian]

Indeed not, on its input - but people will (surely) expect it at this R35 price level if balanced becomes generally more mainstream 🤔

When I demo'd the Xtension 9 Superpack a few weeks back the dealer was at pains to say that the TT and Phono Stage balanced connection was key to getting the best sound quality, to make sure I have this right I've just reread the e-mail that they sent ahead of me visiting the store and it is there in B&W.

Now the music I listened to was very very good, and from what I now know to be an unbalanced set-up, when I revisit the store later this month I should have the same set-up but with the Primare R35 swapped out for Project's own DS3B so I will be interested to see if the sound is the same, better or worse. TBH - It was 6 -8 weeks ago so I don't think I will be able to do a comparison.

But it does show that a top quality sound can be had from an unbalanced system, so why go balanced? Hmm, food for thought.

 

[Gray]

When I demo'd the Xtension 9 Superpack a few weeks back the dealer was at pains to say that the TT and Phono Stage balanced connection was key to getting the best sound quality

I bet he was.
Likewise, if the Hifi News review of the X2B / X3B is to be believed.....he likens the benefit of balanced to upgrading the cartridge.
(Though you obviously don't need to be much of a sceptic to question that assessment).

He may not be too keen but;
It would be fairly quick and easy for the dealer to switch between every combination of balanced versus unbalanced to and from the preamp.
After all, if he's extolling the benefit, he should be more than willing to demonstrate it.
I'd be amazed if, like that Hi-fi News reviewer, you found the benefit of balanced to be comparable to a cartridge change 🤨

 

[plastic penguin]

if you look at the Project website nothing is fully balanced above the X8..... Odd!

Seems very odd. This only adds to the confusion.

 

[plastic penguin]

I was going to say yes, in fact did so then rechecked and realised that it would appear that I was incorrect so deleted the post.

Looking at the blurb it doesn't appear to be balanced as the XLR connections are outputs not inputs, the dealer stated that the X9 and R35 were balanced, clearly that looks to be a bit of bull manure, further investigation required.

Apologies.

No need to apologise. It just seems Pro-ject have their knickers in a twist.

However, the Tucana with the Xtension 9 sounds a tasty combo.

 

[Al ears]

Seems very odd. This only adds to the confusion.

Indeed, I have only just looked at the rear of the X2B and, were I assumed there would be two XLR connectors there is only one mini five pin connection. So can now assume that any deck with this connection and fitted with a Moving Coil cartridge can be mated to one of their balanced phono preamps and their more expensive decks can be made fully balanced if required.