A balanced system?

[Al ears]

0

Yes, my amp doesn't have XLR but surely it isn't a true balanced set-up if standard RCAs are used.

Nobody on this forum knows for sure how much difference there is between the two.

Mine has one pair of XLR connectors to which my Oppo is connected.
The point is, once amplified by the phono preamp the rest is pretty much irrelevant.

 

[Al ears]

This is what happens when one gets caught up with a comment and forgets the original question

If one doesn't have a noise/interference problem. Is there any point on purchasing a balanced cable?

I thought the whole point of using a balanced cable was noise rejection.

correct, that and the way it transmits the voltages.

 

[WayneKerr]

Nobody on this forum knows for sure how much difference there is between the two.

I would suspect not a lot, but they are only my suspicions

 

[WayneKerr]

If you couldn't tell the difference between those cartridges perhaps your ears are at fault?

Strange as it may seem, Al, listening through headphones the difference was there but you really had to concentrate to hear it... playing in real time the difference is very noticeable

 

[Gray]

I cannot see the point in the expense of spending more on something which will unaudioably improve the sound.

Try telling that to the cable boys 😉

Seriously, nobody is more against snake oil than me, but this balanced turntable has potential for improved sound,

I'm glad you no longer have hum.

If you could hear it with the music off, then it was part of your music.

Nobody should put up with any amount of hum.

 

[Gray]

My guess is that a £50 per meter interconnect will do a fine job of rejecting interference. Who said that only a balanced cable can reject interference???

Nobody said only a balanced cable can reject interference.
Regardless of price, any screened cable  should reject interference.

And you can of course connect microphones using non- balanced cables - there will be interference rejection.
But professionals wouldn't dream of it - they use balanced cables for their proven, enhanced noise rejection capabilities.

Your music will have benefited by passing through balanced cables as it was being recorded.

 

[plastic penguin]

I would suspect not a lot, but they are only my suspicions

There seems to be a lot of guess work surrounding this particular subject. Perhaps in a few weeks I can give you my view, not definitive, but I have to start somewhere, I guess.

 

[Gray]

Yes, my amp doesn't have XLR but surely it isn't a true balanced set-up if standard RCAs are used.

Nobody on this forum knows for sure how much difference there is between the two.

The point is PP, your current setup does not need to be balanced for you to potentially reap some benefit from Project's balanced turntable.

I'm not saying that you should buy it because it's balanced - but I am saying that, unlike other examples (directional cables, directional fuses FFS) this is not a case of snake oil.

 

[Gray]

There seems to be a lot of guess work surrounding this particular subject. Perhaps in a few weeks I can give you my view, not definitive, but I have to start somewhere, I guess.

Your verdict will depend on the quality of the cartridge waaaay more than any audible benefit of the balanced system.....

All both Al and me are saying is that given the choice between balanced and unbalanced.....we'll take the balanced.
Notice we haven't even said we think it's worth paying more for balanced 😉

 

[plastic penguin]

Your verdict will depend on the quality of the cartridge waaaay more than any audible benefit of the balanced system.....

All both Al and me are saying is that given the choice between balanced and unbalanced.....we'll take the balanced.
Notice we haven't even said we think it's worth paying more for balanced 😉

I'll be comparing Ortofon Quintet Red on the new model of Classic and I'll compare it with my older Classic with a Clearaudio Concept cartridge.

 

[plastic penguin]

Notice we haven't even said we think it's worth paying more for balanced 😉

In your opinion, is it?

Remember I was talking about the Pro-ject X2B which comes with an affordable Quintet.

 

[nopiano]

I'll be comparing Ortofon Quintet Red on the new model of Classic and I'll compare it with my older Classic with a Clearaudio Concept cartridge.

But you’d really need the Quintet Red MC on your Classic deck too, otherwise the benefits of balanced might be swamped by the tonal differences and vast output differences of the two cartridges.

 

[WayneKerr]

But you’d really need the Quintet Red MC on your Classic deck too, otherwise the benefits of balanced might be swamped by the tonal differences and vast output differences of the two cartridges.

Think PP is only comparing MM to MC at the moment Nopiano... I could be wrong, I'm sure he'll confirm either way

 

[plastic penguin]

But you’d really need the Quintet Red MC on your Classic deck too, otherwise the benefits of balanced might be swamped by the tonal differences and vast output differences of the two cartridges.

You could say about any component. Just want to see how a boring, old fashioned deck with a MM cart stacks up against the new fan dangled upgrades.

Not sure how else to do this without the dealer pulling his/her hair out.

 

[npxavar]

Nobody said only a balanced cable can reject interference.
Regardless of price, any screened cable  should reject interference.

And you can of course connect microphones using non- balanced cables - there will be interference rejection.
But professionals wouldn't dream of it - they use balanced cables for their proven, enhanced noise rejection capabilities.

Your music will have benefited by passing through balanced cables as it was being recorded.

If you are going to run dozens of feet of cabling, balanced cables is a low-cost solution. Doing the same on RCA is more expensive for the simple fact that these cables lack any inherent noise rejection capabilities.

Which means that if your gear requires balanced interconnects, you can use less expensive cables. But who in the hi-fi industry is going to point this out?

 

[npxavar]

Well that's pretty obvious.
I meant if someone was starting from new and intended, at some point, to go down the moving coil route.
If they do this package is a potential bargain.

Α £2K turntable+phono stage package a potential bargain ...

Is this the stereophile forum?

 

[Al ears]

Α £2K turntable+phono stage package a potential bargain ...

Is this the stereophile forum?

Everything is realtive. The clue is in the word 'potential '.
There are plenty of people here with equipment costing more than this..

 

[npxavar]

There are plenty of people here with equipment costing more than this..

Equipment in general yes. Not the deck + phono stage.

 

[Al ears]

Equipment in general yes. Not the deck + phono stage.

Perhaps I should have said turntable and equipment necessary to play back vinyl..this might include an internal phono stage.

 

[Gray]

In your opinion, is it?

I haven't looked at the options or pricing in detail.
So I don't know how much more you'd be paying purely for being balanced - but I know it will be more than I'd be prepared to pay.

Anyone wanting balanced from X2B must buy the X3B box - not so bad for those that also need its MC stage to use the Quintet (as they were already going to have to buy an additional box).
Of course, you don't need the MC gain of that X3 box to use the Quintet - so to you, the cost of the X3B would be only for the privilege of balanced operation - not worth even considering.

 

[daytona600]

Not cynical at all. You are probably correct. Pro-ject have seen a niche in the market to add extra £££s and they are exploiting it to death.

Thorens / Teac and many others offer XLR balanced outputs
XLR Fully balanced done correctly sounds better & Fitted as standard to all very expensive hifi components & AV
XLR connector/cables are 95% cheaper than audiophile cables as made & used in Vast volumes globally

 

[plastic penguin]

Of course, you don't need the MC gain of that X3 box to use the Quintet - so to you, the cost of the X3B would be only for the privilege of balanced operation - not worth even considering.

Which confirms my initial thoughts. And given the MM is seriously good, still scratching my head.

But I will listen to one with as close to the new table as possible. It'll either be a yay or a nay.

Cheers.

 

[Vincent Kars]

I was a bit puzzled by the phrase "balanced".
Balanced as we know it is the 3 pin connection as common n the pro-world. You have the hot (the signal), the cold (the inverse) and the signal ground. At the receiving end there is a differential amp removing the common noise.
One option is they use a balun in the turntable to turn the signal into balanced.
However they refer to MC as being balanced. This reminds me of the headphone world.
Another definition of "balanced" is that what comes in, comes out. No possibility to leak, common ground, etc.
A MC indeed has L+/L- and R+/R-. This might apply to MM as well. However, the wiring or the cartridge might use a common ground so L/R/G
This is probably what Project claims, a 2 x 2 wire connection over the mini XLR versus L+/R+/Ground over RCA.
Obvious, this has noting to do with common noise rejection as we know it from professional balanced connections.

 

[npxavar]

Project also claims that the positive and negative voltages are always being generated by both MM and MC:

Your cartridge is able to generate voltage by moving a magnet within a magnetic field generated by coils around it. Hence the name moving magnet (note: MC cartridges do it the other way round, they move the coils around a magnet, hence moving coil). And for each movement your will always generate a positive and negative voltage.

Which obviously allows for a balanced connection in terms of pro-audio.

 

[Symples]

See what you've started! @plastic penguin