A balanced system?

[Gray]

hmmmmm
Unless one has a noise problem.. Is there any benefits of a balanced cable/system?

This seems like a stupid thing to say but;
you don't (necessarily) have to audibly hear the noise itself, to benefit from its elimination (to benefit the sound that you actually do hear).

Obviously you do want to eliminate any audible noise, but RFI is all around now, eliminating that is a good idea.

Think like with TV pictures.
Watching an LCD backlit TV looks great. Blacks look black - you don't think you've got any 'noise'.
But there's a very slight greyness to the black.
Take that 'noise' away, as with an OLED display.....and you start with a blacker background....making everything about the visible picture better.

Same with audio. You may not know there's noise there - but, take it away and everything sounds better 🤪

 

[Al ears]

I think that it is accepted that a MC cartridge is better for vinyl replay but with some caveats, namely the system needs to be able to showcase what the cartridge is retrieving.

As a MC cartridge is balanced by design having the rest of the vinyl chain follow that balanced input seems logical but does that mean that everything - Turntable, phono stage, amplifier all have to be balanced?

If they do then heading down this route is going to be expensive.

I believe it would not be necessary to have an amp with balanced inputs but not necessary. The important bit is the area of weak signal from the cartridge to the phono preamp.

 

[Gray]

Theres no doubt the balanced turntable is curing a problem that nobody knew they had.
But just because we didn't know we had it....doesn't mean it wasn't a problem 😐.

Bottom line must be that choosing a better sounding cartridge will always benefit you more.....but, apart from the (current) cost, there's no disadvantage to going balanced.

 

[WayneKerr]

This may, or may not, be relevant, but having gone down the road of "balanced" for two sets of my headphones there is a difference but to my old ears it is marginal at best; it is very dependant on the source material. Now with headphones you are about as up close and personal as you can get to the music... listening through an amp+speaker setup remains to be heard but my guess would be even more marginal.

I've enjoyed venturing down the "balanced" road but I don't think it would be a journey I would repeat in a hurry, especially considering the cost of going balanced for vinyl playback.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing to get the utmost benefit from this the whole system would need balanced inputs/outputs. My system does not have this facility and I'm not about to junk it in favour of what could be very marginal gains.

(I'm aware that "balanced" in the headphone scenario is not truly balanced but "differential drive")

 

[Al ears]

This may, or may not, be relevant, but having gone down the road of "balanced" for two sets of my headphones there is a difference but to my old ears it is marginal at best; it is very dependant on the source material. Now with headphones you are about as up close and personal as you can get to the music... listening through an amp+speaker setup remains to be heard but my guess would be even more marginal.

I've enjoyed venturing down the "balanced" road but I don't think it would be a journey I would repeat in a hurry, especially considering the cost of going balanced for vinyl playback.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing to get the utmost benefit from this the whole system would need balanced inputs/outputs. My system does not have this facility and I'm not about to junk it in favour of what could be very marginal gains.

(I'm aware that "balanced" in the headphone scenario is not truly balanced but "differential drive")

i would consider that once the signal gets to the amp itself then they benefit of the balanced bit is done. Of course it would be nice if the amp itself had balanced inputs

 

[Gray]

I'm guessing to get the utmost benefit from this the whole system would need balanced inputs/outputs.

That would seem ideal Doug.
But, as Al has pointed out, the real potential benefit to anyone (regardless of whether their main amp is balanced throughout) is the noise reduction in that (albeit fairly short) signal cable from TT to that balanced box.

And even that benefit is likely, as you suggest, to be marginal at best.

 

[WayneKerr]

That would seem ideal Doug.
But, as Al has pointed out, the real potential benefit to anyone (regardless of whether their main amp is balanced throughout) is the noise reduction in that (albeit fairly short) signal cable from TT to that balanced box.

And even that benefit is likely, as you suggest, to be marginal at best.

Imagine the anxiety of knowing that your signal would be unbalanced for the last metre or so of its journey

 

[daytona600]

Balanced use XLR connectors not RCA
industry standard in recording studios , live music , TV / Radio etc for several decades
Also standard on very expensive Hifi Equipment
Pro-Ject offer XLR fully balanced @ real world prices

Why actually ballanced / symmetrical phono preamplification?
There are two clean- symmetrical (mass-free) signal sources. Microphones, which explains also the historical origination of the symmetrical signal transmission within the professional audio range, on the other hand the MovingCoil pick-ups.

There it is actually amazing that symmetrical / balanced circuits are so rarely used in phonostages. due to high cost Because here one has to do as also with microphones, with very small voltages/currents with those the advantages of symmetrical signal processing : During the symmetrical processing two contrary-phased signals are transferred. The amplifier forms the difference between both signals. Thus with symmetrical processing not the difference of an electrical signal is used to the mass, but the difference of two electrical signals. Disturbances, which usually arise on both signal-lines, are so effectively erased. In addition the XLR input has 6db higher amplification, this is more effective and results in better signal/noise ratio.
During asymmetrical connection a half wave of the MC signal is connected with the often contaminated common-ground!

TRUE balanced with just two conductors?

Normally balanced connections have 3 conductors: positive, negative and ground.
But in the case of eg. cartriges or microphones, which are balanced sources with just 2 conductors - positive and negative. The technical term is floating balanced or balanced without ground. Yes this is TRUE balanced! The positive signal is connected to one dedicated amplifier stage and the negative signal is inverted and also connected to one dedicated amplifier stage = differential amplifier!
All MC´s are balanced and virtually all l tonearms too ( not REGA )

MC cartridges supply generally little voltage, but a completely useful current (otherwise the signal would not be possible to transform with an MC-transformer. The product of voltage times current remains on same value)

 

[npxavar]

That was my immediate question when I saw this turntable - when it could have been done long ago.

My guess is that a £50 per meter interconnect will do a fine job of rejecting interference. Who said that only a balanced cable can reject interference???

 

[plastic penguin]

Why has this only come to light since Pro-ject added cheap MCs to their affordable decks? Surely they can't be the only company.

For many years Alears and others have suggested you need to spend X amount on a MC cartridge to really hear the benefits. Having never heard a MC cart before, I'm sure I'm not the only one, we have to go by what is advised.

 

[WayneKerr]

Why has this only come to light since Pro-ject added cheap MCs to their affordable decks? Surely they can't be the only company.

For many years Alears and others have suggested you need to spend X amount on a MC cartridge to really hear the benefits. Having never heard a MC cart before, I'm sure I'm not the only one, we have to go by what is advised.

Project salesman: If you don't have MC facility on your amp then you'll need another box sir... and here's the very one you need . Oh, and a full XLR connection from cartridge to amp would also be advisable... like this amp here

It's the next "big breakthrough" in vinyl replay and the next fad to empty your wallet of more cash. Guess their next move will be to bring out an amp with XLR connectors... Just call me cynical

 

[plastic penguin]

Project salesman: If you don't have MC facility on your amp then you'll need another box sir... and here's the very one you need . Oh, and a full XLR connection from cartridge to amp would also be advisable... like this amp here

It's the next "big breakthrough" in vinyl replay and the next fad to empty your wallet of more cash. Guess their next move will be to bring out an amp with XLR connectors... Just call me cynical

Not cynical at all. You are probably correct. Pro-ject have seen a niche in the market to add extra £££s and they are exploiting it to death.

 

[Al ears]

Not cynical at all. You are probably correct. Pro-ject have seen a niche in the market to add extra £££s and they are exploiting it to death.

If you have tge ability to improve noise rejection in an analog set-up why not develop it I say.

 

[plastic penguin]

If you have tge ability to improve noise rejection in an analog set-up why not develop it I say.

We all want improvements as hi-fi evolves, but the extra cost of adding a balanced phono box and XLRs is my gripe in all this malarkey, especially as money is so tight for many people, includes yours truly.

How long will it take before other turntable makers to cotton on to this potential market?

 

[Symples]

This seems like a stupid thing to say but;
you don't (necessarily) have to audibly hear the noise itself, to benefit from its elimination (to benefit the sound that you actually do hear).

Obviously you do want to eliminate any audible noise, but RFI is all around now, eliminating that is a good idea.

Think like with TV pictures.
Watching an LCD backlit TV looks great. Blacks look black - you don't think you've got any 'noise'.
But there's a very slight greyness to the black.
Take that 'noise' away, as with an OLED display.....and you start with a blacker background....making everything about the visible picture better.

Same with audio. You may not know there's noise there - but, take it away and everything sounds better 🤪

Where I can agree with your comment (is it possible to half agree with anything)

I cannot see the point in the expense of spending more on something which will unaudioably improve the sound.

There used to be a very slight hum coming from my turntable. I only noticed it when standing next to my speaker when there was no sound playing. (now disappeard with my new turntable)

The thing was at even quiet levels I did not notice the hum. I do not think it affected the music.

But you may have a point in your TV analogy

Speaking of noise. I am going to purchase £299 audiophile router to improve my listening pleasure

 

[plastic penguin]

Where I can agree with your comment (is it possible to half agree with anything)

I cannot see the point in the expense of spending more on something which will unaudioably improve the sound.

There used to be a very slight hum coming from my turntable. I only noticed it when standing next to my speaker when there was no sound playing. (now disappeard with my new turntable)

The thing was at even quiet levels I did not notice the hum. I do not think it affected the music.

But you may have a point in your TV analogy

Speaking of noise. I am going to purchase £299 audiophile router to improve my listening pleasure

Agreed.

 

[Al ears]

We all want improvements as hi-fi evolves, but the extra cost of adding a balanced phono box and XLRs is my gripe in all this malarkey, especially as money is so tight for many people, includes yours truly.

How long will it take before other turntable makers to cotton on to this potential market?

If you wanted a potentially good deck and needed a phono preamp as well I would suggest, at under £2k it's still a pretty good buy considering the suggested quality and you can use standard cables to your amp if said amp doesn't have XLR inputs.
Others may disagree in it's value.

 

[npxavar]

If you wanted a potentially good deck and needed a phono preamp as well I would suggest, at under £2k it's still a pretty good buy considering the suggested quality and you can use standard cables to your amp if said amp doesn't have XLR inputs.
Others may disagree in it's value.

Actually the combo must be great if the review in hifinews is to be trusted. For someone with a good MM cartridge turntable, it would be less expensive to just upgrade parts.

 

[Al ears]

Actually the combo must be great if the review in hifinews is to be trusted. For someone with a good MM cartridge turntable, it would be less expensive to just upgrade parts.

Well that's pretty obvious.
I meant if someone was starting from new and intended, at some point, to go down the moving coil route.
If they do this package is a potential bargain.

 

[WayneKerr]

At some stage I must get round to trying an MC cartridge to see what my conclusions are... but it won't be balanced

Gray and I have become hi-fi buddies over the years and occasionally compare components. The results of some of the blind tests Gray devises have been very interesting. Recently did a phono-stage comparison between stages costing £200-700... couldn't tell the difference. I've done it with MM carts from £140-700... with intense listening through headphones the difference was a lot smaller than you would suspect.

 

[Al ears]

At some stage I must get round to trying an MC cartridge to see what my conclusions are... but it won't be balanced

Gray and I have become hi-fi buddies over the years and occasionally compare components. The results of some of the blind tests Gray devises have been very interesting. Recently did a phono-stage comparison between stages costing £200-700... couldn't tell the difference. I've done it with MM carts from £140-700... with intense listening through headphones the difference was a lot smaller than you would suspect.

You missed the point in that all moving coil cartridges are essentially balanced.
It's the rest if the setup that isn't....
If you couldn't tell the difference between those cartridges perhaps your ears are at fault?

 

[Symples]

Gray and I have become hi-fi buddies over the years and occasionally compare components. The results of some of the blind tests Gray devises have been very interesting. Recently did a phono-stage comparison between stages costing £200-700... couldn't tell the difference. I've done it with MM carts from £140-700... with intense listening through headphones the difference was a lot smaller than you would suspect.

It's funny that you should mention that. I have an Onlyo AV amp and a Cambridge Azur 851A.
The Cambridge is supposedly better for music (I purchased it refurbished on ebay but that's not the point)

Comparing the two connected to my system and to be honest. The only difference I could hear was that the Onkyo was more powerful (Well I was bi-amping at twice it'w normal power)

It got me thinking about hifi reviews and whether one piece of equipment is better than the other. Is it a lot of difference as claimed or more of a subtle difference?

I am beginning to suspect that it is the latter.

Or..... are my ears that shot to pieces?

PS... my amp and CD have balanced XLR connector, but I think that I'll stick with good ole RCA

 

[Al ears]

It's funny that you should mention that. I have an Onlyo AV amp and a Cambridge Azur 851A.
The Cambridge is supposedly better for music (I purchased it refurbished on ebay but that's not the point)

Comparing the two connected to my system and to be honest. The only difference I could hear was that the Onkyo was more powerful (Well I was bi-amping at twice it'w normal power)

It got me thinking about hifi reviews and whether one piece of equipment is better than the other. Is it a lot of difference as claimed or more of a subtle difference?

I am beginning to suspect that it is the latter.

Or..... are my ears that shot to pieces?

PS... my amp and CD have balanced XLR connector, but I think that I'll stick with good ole RCA

Interesting, but what does this have to do with the OPs question....?
Considering what subforum this is in I mean...

 

[Symples]

Interesting, but what does this have to do with the OPs question....?
Considering what subforum this is in I mean...

This is what happens when one gets caught up with a comment and forgets the original question

If one doesn't have a noise/interference problem. Is there any point on purchasing a balanced cable?

I thought the whole point of using a balanced cable was noise rejection.

 

[plastic penguin]

0

If you wanted a potentially good deck and needed a phono preamp as well I would suggest, at under £2k it's still a pretty good buy considering the suggested quality and you can use standard cables to your amp if said amp doesn't have XLR inputs.
Others may disagree in it's value.

Yes, my amp doesn't have XLR but surely it isn't a true balanced set-up if standard RCAs are used.

Nobody on this forum knows for sure how much difference there is between the two.