Al ears said:
I agree Al,
the one doing the rounds at the min is the 'what speakers with XXXXXX amp'
I agree Al,
the one doing the rounds at the min is the 'what speakers with XXXXXX amp'
BenLaw said:
i dont contribute to other threads because my hifi knowledge is limited hence my questions requesting peoples experience of products mentioned.
as for starting controversial topics are you saying people can only ask questions you and your "team" approve of ?
(not all my threads have been cable based - i'm sure you will be looking into that now....)
if you dont like the threads i start, why reply ? (have you got nothing better to do ?)
i kindly suggest you ignore them like i ignore the threads i am not interested in.
Al ears
Well-known member
stevebrock said:
Yep, that's another perennial. I bang my head against the wall when i see these.
People should continue to ask what questions they like and if it's a subject you think has been asked before or it's something you don't want to discuss then just avoid that topic.
teling people to do research before asking a question could be said for almost any subject,maybe some people just like to intreract with others.
It does feel like some members think they run the forum sometimes.
i agree the cable debate is pointless but that's because I've been reading this site for 6 yrs or more and I've read loads and I no how they go, but it's simple I just avoid them.
teling people to do research before asking a question could be said for almost any subject,maybe some people just like to intreract with others.
It does feel like some members think they run the forum sometimes.
i agree the cable debate is pointless but that's because I've been reading this site for 6 yrs or more and I've read loads and I no how they go, but it's simple I just avoid them.
professorhat said:
i could not agree more. The forum should be for people to find advise from other enthusiasts with a shared love of hi fi and music.
mikefarrow said:
Yet again, you're not being bullied. Here's a tip but feel free to ignore if you will, you post your threads, but never explain what the rationale is behind them, just "thanks in advance for your opinions" or somesuch. There's never an apparent purchase behind it, or other reason. So when you post yet another thread asking for opinions, then follow up with "anyone?" one day later, then it just comes across like badgering for the sake of it.
When you do get a reply from someone - and the Townshend thread you put up is a good example - you'll say "thanks, this is the kind of thing I was looking for, someone with the actual experience of the product". I'll tell you now, like your expensive interconnects thread at the end of last year, the chances of more than a great minority having used Nordost Odins, Townshend Seismic Sinks, etc., are going to be actual owners you can count on the fingers of one hand.
As to how cables perform, or work, then there are better resources on the internet than here. Simple as that. Roger Russel's is one for wire. Blue Jeans Cable in the States is another. There's some guy at St. Andrews Uni who did a good paper a few years back too. NWAVGuy's blog is essential reading IMO. As is the Steve Hoffman forum, but if you opt to sign up to the latter, your questions will probably get short shrift if you pass over the Search function there. And the Gorts are firmer in their moderation than here.
Just a few observations from my side of the fence.
matt49
Well-known member
the record spot said:
Jim Lesurf. He knows stuff.
This is worth reading by way of introduction:
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/part6/page1.html
Matt
Heated cable debates even when heavily modded are awesome! (-ish).
What sucks are cable threads that discuss about how sinister cable threads are.
Inception! :O
Gotcha! 8)
Yeah... bored.... back to watching Trollied on Sky...
What sucks are cable threads that discuss about how sinister cable threads are.
Inception! :O
Gotcha! 8)
Yeah... bored.... back to watching Trollied on Sky...
plastic penguin
Well-known member
It would probably help if people started threads in the right section.
Note to mods: Can you not just transfer cable threads directly into here http://www.whathifi.com/forum/accessories
Absolutely pointless in having all these sections when most posters start threads in the 'Hi-Fi' section.
Note to mods: Can you not just transfer cable threads directly into here http://www.whathifi.com/forum/accessories
Absolutely pointless in having all these sections when most posters start threads in the 'Hi-Fi' section.
Native_bon said:
Interesting but not entirely constructive.
Getting back to the point as to why there are so many cable threads, I think there are several reasons, most have to do with the fact that a fair part of the industry promotes cables and their percieved differences as hugely important, when in fact they are not. The best that can be said is that, in very good, high resolution systems, the small difference between cables can be used for fine tuning, in budget or mid-fi systems the money is far better spent elsewhere.
There is, however, a widespread belief among entusiasts thar cables can make or break a system and this can be a rather distracting issue. Time, I think for another DDC anecdote.
Back when I was a dealer, we attracted a lot of customers of a certain type, they knew what we did and what we sold and were happy to go with that, but we would also, from time to time, get a different type of person.
They would ask about all the latest highly reviewed product, have a shortlist drawn up from recent editions of WHF and find themselves surprised that we did not sell any of it. We would explain that we had what we thought were better options, and quite often offer to play them a system that fitted their requirements but contained none of the latest 5* products.
Whilst they may have been impressed with the setup, they would not trust what they had heard for themselves and leave without buying. A month or two later they would return, explaining that they had a 'problem'. They would describe their system, all 5* products of course, and how they 'didn't seem to be getting the best from it'....... :wall:
We would be asked to recommend a cable or two that would sort out all their issues but when we explained that the system was poorly chosen, badly matched and that no cable on earth could make it sound decent (we used more diplomatic language of course) they would get upset. Usually they would quote 'chapter and verse' from various reviews but when we asked how it sounded to them, we would get the usual 'it's really good but....." response. Ie it sound like complete cack.
Manufacturers and dealers got away with a lot back then (and some still do) selling equipment that in reality was quite mediocre, but that was not their fault, it was your's for using the 'wrong' cables........ :doh:
The perfect customer for any aftermarket cotage industry: desensitized of spending and over sensitized on minor differences.
Native_bon said:
And you are surprised, why? Because those interested in cables should have been beaten into submission by now?
The cable threads ebb and flow, but a more interesting question is why discuss cables in the first place?
In my opinion, 3 reasons:
1. Owners like to tinker around and to customise. In the old days, significant improvements could be made by relatively simple modifications. The equipment available was (by modern standards) poor, and a keen enthusiast could significantly upgrade their system. These days, all the bits that really matter are buried inside D2A DSP algorithms, or are components so small you can barely see them. The only thing left to tinker with are the interconnects - so thats what owners do, whether it makes a difference or not.
2. There is no money selling hifi boxes, all the money is in the add ons. Same as fridges, competition is cut throat, the high margin products are the extended warranties. Every incentive for hifi retailers to push the high margin goods, so cables etc get pushed at the point of sale.
3. Cables are hifi jewelry. I have a fancy watch. It is less accurate than a plastic digital thing I got free with a gallon of oil some years back. I wear the fancy watch, not because it tells the time better, but it makes all sorts of statements about me and my status. Cables are the same. Why else would forum members include the details of their cables in their signatures?
In my opinion, 3 reasons:
1. Owners like to tinker around and to customise. In the old days, significant improvements could be made by relatively simple modifications. The equipment available was (by modern standards) poor, and a keen enthusiast could significantly upgrade their system. These days, all the bits that really matter are buried inside D2A DSP algorithms, or are components so small you can barely see them. The only thing left to tinker with are the interconnects - so thats what owners do, whether it makes a difference or not.
2. There is no money selling hifi boxes, all the money is in the add ons. Same as fridges, competition is cut throat, the high margin products are the extended warranties. Every incentive for hifi retailers to push the high margin goods, so cables etc get pushed at the point of sale.
3. Cables are hifi jewelry. I have a fancy watch. It is less accurate than a plastic digital thing I got free with a gallon of oil some years back. I wear the fancy watch, not because it tells the time better, but it makes all sorts of statements about me and my status. Cables are the same. Why else would forum members include the details of their cables in their signatures?
Alec
Well-known member
plastic penguin said:
Aye. More sections than you can shake a stick at, and people can't be bothered to use them.
andyjm said:
Instead of coming up with some status symbol theory about why we include cables in our signature, could it be that we just think cables are just important links in the hi-fi chain? That's my reason anyway.
Thought this would be yet another. But some interesting comments surprisingly. I recon when the 'doubters' comment then all they can say is 'snake oil' wheras the 'believers' may wish to share their experiences.. I think some think cable swapping may represent a 'quick fix' (I dont wish to comment either way) but other quick fixes seem to attract less interest. Speaker positioning, room treatment, isolation etc., can (IMO) offer significant and cheap improvements wheras cable changes are likely to be a less cost effective tweak. When we spend sheds on amps, speakers etc then what else can we do? Some will ask about cables. Others may wish to try other (maybe more complex) tweaks. Take care all. :cheers:
plastic penguin
Well-known member
hifikrazy said:
Status symbols are an important link in the chain for many people...just look at the folk with Mercedes cars and designer clothes. Cables above and beyond "to spec" are about as important. Totally irrelevant to SQ.
So I guess the argument against Mercedes is that a Tata Nano (cheapest car in the world) will get you from point A to point B, same as the Mercedes will so there's no difference. But that overlooks the comfort during the journey that the Mercedes will better deliver. Unfortunately the people who make such statements are those that can't afford the Mercedes.
hifikrazy said:
Nope the argument is that I would probably choose a nice new VW or Audi or Ford.
And yes, we can afford a Mercedes.
So I guess your last statement is a sweeping (incorrect) generalisation.
fr0g said:
Is yours any less a sweeping (incorrect) generalisation that people who buy Mercedes only buy it as a status symbol?
Actually I would also choose a nice Audi or VW over a Mercedes. At least there's something we can agree on. :cheers:
But Ford I think not. Terrible quality.
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