What is good hi fi for you

[ellisdj]

I believe you Shadders - your background is likely technically explemporary - cant even spell it. You might be a legend in the industry in disguise - someone like Floyd Toole a Legend. If you are hats off but I think you measured my Kef speakers at too high volume and it skewed the readings... lol

However I dont think you need that background to make a hifi sound good in a room and that is the best bit about it - the end result speaks for itself and somehow it speaks different to everyone. Truly Good sound will always very obvious regardless of personal preference

 

[ellisdj]

Laws of diminishing returns doesnt exist - its the lack of understanding of how to get better sound from a hifi system in a room that exists in my experience.

You need to get out and listen more from the comment - as after hearing about a £250k system a couple of months ago at a hifi show - there was nothing dimishing about that except my soul at how much better it sounded than my system at home. Simple as that really.

No, it's not that simple at all. You probably thought that expensive system sounded great because of expectation bias. You knew it was a very expensive system, so your brain told you it had to sound incredible. Your comments would make a bit of sense if there had been different systems with different price tags and you hadn't known which system was playing. But you don't seem to believe in double blind testing. I imagine because deep down inside you don't want to find out that you've been conned by marketing babble for all these years.

You fall for the same expectation bias that is rife in the wine world. People have been tricked into believing that they were drinking a very expensive wine because it was served from an expensive looking bottle. They even commented about the depth of flavour etc while they were tasting the exact cheap wine they had tasted earlier. Only because it was served in a more expensive looking bottle.

And the law of diminishing returns does exist. Obviously better components will most likely lead to more lifelike reprodution, which is what good HiFi should be about. Just like it should be about neutral sounding.

IMark - your totally wrong and it shows your lack of experience, if you think hifi can only get marginally better with money spent. More effort = more reward always. Take your head out of the sand and your own system might sound better

Please see this and you can see

 

[shadders]

I believe you Shadders - your background is likely technically explemporary - cant even spell it. You might be a legend in the industry in disguise - someone like Floyd Toole a Legend. If you are hats off but I think you measured my Kef speakers at too high volume and it skewed the readings... lol

However I dont think you need that background to make a hifi sound good in a room and that is the best bit about it - the end result speaks for itself and somehow it speaks different to everyone. Truly Good sound will always very obvious regardless of personal preference

Hi,

My points were that this is an open forum, and anyone can comment on what they like, in addition to, that people understand engineering and know through science that cables, for example, have no effect on on the sound.

As others have stated, expectation bias is a proven scientific fact, and people on this forum are just providing an alternative view point.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[iMark]

IMark - your totally wrong and it shows your lack of experience, if you think hifi can only get marginally better with money spent. More effort = more reward always. Take your head out of the sand and your own system might sound better

Please see this and you can see

So where is the double blind test setting to eliminate expectation bias in these HiFi shows? Or do you really don't (or don't want to) understand how expectation bias works? Did you actually read what I wrote about cheap wine in expensive bottles? Expectation bias is all around us, especially in HiFi. If it looks good and has a hefty price tag, it must be good. Unfortunately like with wine that's not always the case. Digital cables are a prime example of expectation bias. There's no harm in pointing this out on this forum.

 

[ellisdj]

Your not Floyd toole then oh well the lofty expectation i had in my mind for our next conversation is sadly gone

 

[shadders]

Your not Floyd toole then oh well the lofty expectation i had in my mind for our next conversation is sadly gone

Hi,

There are 7.5billion people on this planet, and there is certain to be more than one person who understands science with regards to audio.

If you do not believe that expectation bias exists, then you can state so.

I have bought an expensive cable (1985 - cost £25 for a phono to phono - which was expensive then) expecting to hear an improved sound, but there was none. I remember trying to convince myself that there was an improvement.

Perhaps I do not have golden ears, but then, I know that in some areas of audio, that claimed improvements are just not possible. Others on this forum know this is the case also. You do not need to be a "name" in the audio field to understand engineering science.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[iMark]

I have bought an expensive cable (1985 - cost £25 for a phono to phono - which was expensive then) expecting to hear an improved sound, but there was none. I remember trying to convince myself that there was an improvement.

I've had similar experiences. I bought some expensive Ixos audio interconnects when I bought a new system in 2000. They only thing I can say about them is that they have a really tight fit and look substantially built so they will last me the rest of my lifetime. I don't think there's an audible difference but they might be better shielded than cheaper cables. The only time I could really notice the difference between a cheap cable and an expensive one was with scart lead between my first DVD player and my big Sony CRT TV. The heavy Ixos cable really gave better picture than the cable from the box.

 

[ellisdj]

Lads I appreciate your honesty here - but you have both tried 1 cable each and written them All off - Shadders you tried 1 cable 30 years ago and said thats it. Come off it that is not trying something out. You didnt even wire the whole system up at once.

What about going the whole hog borrowing £10k+ worth of proper good stuff not from Chord or QED or Ixos good stuff and wiring up the whole system - interconnects, power cables even usb cables and trying that just to see if it makes no difference then. Thats a real test, not 1 cable in 30 years. You might have a eureka moment and think I have wasted 30 years listening to hindered sound. Then another one - **** how do I get my hands on £10k to buy all this.

 

[shadders]

I have bought an expensive cable (1985 - cost £25 for a phono to phono - which was expensive then) expecting to hear an improved sound, but there was none. I remember trying to convince myself that there was an improvement.

I've had similar experiences. I bought some expensive Ixos audio interconnects when I bought a new system in 2000. They only thing I can say about them is that they have a really tight fit and look substantially built so they will last me the rest of my lifetime. I don't think there's an audible difference but they might be better shielded than cheaper cables. The only time I could really notice the difference between a cheap cable and an expensive one was with scart lead between my first DVD player and my big Sony CRT TV. The heavy Ixos cable really gave better picture than the cable from the box.

Hi,

Yes, I have some Ixos interconnects too, they are quite good quality and build. Thankfully scarts are a thing of the past.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[shadders]

Lads I appreciate your honesty here - but you have both tried 1 cable each and written them All off - Shadders you tried 1 cable 30 years ago and said thats it. Come off it that is not trying something out. You didnt even wire the whole system up at once.

What about going the whole hog borrowing £10k+ worth of proper good stuff not from Chord or QED or Ixos good stuff and wiring up the whole system - interconnects, power cables even usb cables and trying that just to see if it makes no difference then. Thats a real test, not 1 cable in 30 years. You might have a eureka moment and think I have wasted 30 years listening to hindered sound. Then another one - **** how do I get my hands on £10k to buy all this.

Hi,

Well, that does prove my point. Change one thing at a time and see if there is a difference. There was no difference, so why would changing all cables make a difference if one expensive cable does not?

Physics and cable construction has not changed in 30 years. There is not one scientific paper that states a phono cable 30 years ago (of excellent construction) is of a worse capability than a cable today. Copper conductors have not suddenly become more conductive. There has been no change in the quantum behaviour of the copper material in 30 years, so why should it be different now?

The only change is marketing hype and and maybe they use prettier colours.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

well the forst iteration of the best cables in the world xlo limited edition didnt come out until 1998 and had you said I tried a full loom of them and heard no difference I would say fair play. Had you tried that you would think the same as me and be arguing the toss with Imark

You needed to do the test in reverse wire the whole system up and take one out i.e. put it back to stock at a time and see if you hear a difference then.

All the knowledge you have and you bodged that test right up and wasted 30 years of hindered sound.

Quick hurry up and get a full loom on loan before its too late and you have lost your whole life to hindered sound. I cant think of nothing worse than that - on my death bed - oh I wished I had tried a full loom of good cables just to cheeeee..... gone

Get only cables using solid core occ copper - nothing else, not stranded all solid core just this and then see. Better still get all individually insulated solid core occ copper conductors - full loom - your looking at £10k easy for that probably more. Thats the test for you right there.

You have nothing to lose except a couple of days listening and finding a dealer who can do this test

 

[iMark]

What about going the whole hog borrowing £10k+ worth of proper good stuff not from Chord or QED or Ixos good stuff and wiring up the whole system - interconnects, power cables even usb cables and trying that just to see if it makes no difference then. Thats a real test, not 1 cable in 30 years. You might have a eureka moment and think I have wasted 30 years listening to hindered sound. Then another one - **** how do I get my hands on £10k to buy all this.

Wrong on all counts. A real test would be double blind testing without the listener knowing what combination of equipment (including cables) is actually playing. That's the only way to eliminate expectation bias. But you don't seem to understand or want to understand that concept because it might reveal that you've wasted thousands on cables, mains cleaners etc that don't do anything. I bet you that you won't be able to hear any difference between my USB printer cable and your fancy, expensive stuff.

Do you actually like listening to music or do you just like listening to equipment?

 

[shadders]

well the forst iteration of the best cables in the world xlo limited edition didnt come out until 1998 and had you said I tried a full loom of them and heard no difference I would say fair play. Had you tried that you would think the same as me and be arguing the toss with Imark

You needed to do the test in reverse wire the whole system up and take one out i.e. put it back to stock at a time and see if you hear a difference then.

All the knowledge you have and you bodged that test right up and wasted 30 years of hindered sound.

Quick hurry up and get a full loom on loan before its too late and you have lost your whole life to hindered sound. I cant think of nothing worse than that - on my death bed - oh I wished I had tried a full loom of good cables just to cheeeee..... gone

Get only cables using solid core occ copper - nothing else, not stranded all solid core just this and then see. Better still get all individually insulated solid core occ copper conductors - full loom - your looking at £10k easy for that probably more. Thats the test for you right there.

You have nothing to lose except a couple of days listening and finding a dealer who can do this test

Hi,

The order of the cable implementation is not relevant. If cable A provides an improvement, then you would hear it. What you are inferring is that the use of cable A on its own will not provide an audible improvement. Hence, you actually agree with me. Cables do not improve the sound.

Copper conductivity has not changed in the last 30 years. A 79strand copper cable is as good as any loom based cable, with regards to audio reproduction. Where is the scientific paper that proves that cable A is better than cable B (ignoring obvious differences such as conductive cross area)???

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[iMark]

well the forst iteration of the best cables in the world xlo limited edition didnt come out until 1998 and had you said I tried a full loom of them and heard no difference I would say fair play. Had you tried that you would think the same as me and be arguing the toss with Imark

You needed to do the test in reverse wire the whole system up and take one out i.e. put it back to stock at a time and see if you hear a difference then.

All the knowledge you have and you bodged that test right up and wasted 30 years of hindered sound.

Quick hurry up and get a full loom on loan before its too late and you have lost your whole life to hindered sound. I cant think of nothing worse than that - on my death bed - oh I wished I had tried a full loom of good cables just to cheeeee..... gone

Get only cables using solid core occ copper - nothing else, not stranded all solid core just this and then see. Better still get all individually insulated solid core occ copper conductors - full loom - your looking at £10k easy for that probably more. Thats the test for you right there.

You have nothing to lose except a couple of days listening and finding a dealer who can do this test

Do you actually believe all this marketing hype? OCC copper is one of my favourites. The ratio is about 50,000 : 50,000 +(0.01 or 0 ) approximately, which works out to a difference of 0.000002 dB which is utterly inaudible. I bet you also believe in homeopathy.

What do you actually think a cable does, physically speaking?

 

[ellisdj]

I like listening to music and watching films imark - but there is a Big difference between a system actually playing music over playing just noise a very big difference in fact. If you went and heard the system I was on about earlier that was proper music, that is what impressed me so much - it actually sounded like real music it was epic,

I suggest you attend that show next year and hope that system is there again - its an eye opener for sure

 

[ellisdj]

well the forst iteration of the best cables in the world xlo limited edition didnt come out until 1998 and had you said I tried a full loom of them and heard no difference I would say fair play. Had you tried that you would think the same as me and be arguing the toss with Imark

You needed to do the test in reverse wire the whole system up and take one out i.e. put it back to stock at a time and see if you hear a difference then.

All the knowledge you have and you bodged that test right up and wasted 30 years of hindered sound.

Quick hurry up and get a full loom on loan before its too late and you have lost your whole life to hindered sound. I cant think of nothing worse than that - on my death bed - oh I wished I had tried a full loom of good cables just to cheeeee..... gone

Get only cables using solid core occ copper - nothing else, not stranded all solid core just this and then see. Better still get all individually insulated solid core occ copper conductors - full loom - your looking at £10k easy for that probably more. Thats the test for you right there.

You have nothing to lose except a couple of days listening and finding a dealer who can do this test

Do you actually believe all this marketing hype? OCC copper is one of my favourites. The ratio is about 50,000 : 50,000 +(0.01 or 0 ) approximately, which works out to a difference of 0.000002 dB which is utterly inaudible. I bet you also believe in homeopathy.

What do you actually think a cable does, physically speaking?

Its irrelevant what I think - that is the test you need to do - once you have done that test I will accept thats cable make no difference to a system. Trying Ixos in 85 is not sufficient in my eyes

EDIT - dont worry about expectation bias we are not sending the results to be peer reviewed.

I think you need to hear an improved sound and for some people get used it, accept that its better even if its different to what you had before, for some people this will take some time, stubborn buggas - then if its taken away you notice the degradation straight away and can never un hear that difference, its always there.

 

[shadders]

well the forst iteration of the best cables in the world xlo limited edition didnt come out until 1998 and had you said I tried a full loom of them and heard no difference I would say fair play. Had you tried that you would think the same as me and be arguing the toss with Imark

You needed to do the test in reverse wire the whole system up and take one out i.e. put it back to stock at a time and see if you hear a difference then.

All the knowledge you have and you bodged that test right up and wasted 30 years of hindered sound.

Quick hurry up and get a full loom on loan before its too late and you have lost your whole life to hindered sound. I cant think of nothing worse than that - on my death bed - oh I wished I had tried a full loom of good cables just to cheeeee..... gone

Get only cables using solid core occ copper - nothing else, not stranded all solid core just this and then see. Better still get all individually insulated solid core occ copper conductors - full loom - your looking at £10k easy for that probably more. Thats the test for you right there.

You have nothing to lose except a couple of days listening and finding a dealer who can do this test

Do you actually believe all this marketing hype? OCC copper is one of my favourites. The ratio is about 50,000 : 50,000 +(0.01 or 0 ) approximately, which works out to a difference of 0.000002 dB which is utterly inaudible. I bet you also believe in homeopathy.

What do you actually think a cable does, physically speaking?

Its irrelevant what I think - that is the test you need to do - once you have done that test I will accept thats cable make no difference to a system. Trying Ixos in 85 is not sufficient in my eyes

Hi,

The number iMark has provided is important. The difference in volume level (to keep it simple) is so small, you could never hear it.

And that is just it, all the cable does is provide a change in volume level, and absolutely NOTHING else.

Copper is a conductor, all it does is repeat verbatim (without change) what is put in one end, and presents it at the other end. It is not like an amplifier that has non linearity, where what you put in one end comes out slightly different at the other end. This is of course at audio frequencies.

Have you ever seen a statement where a manufacturer states that their cable is linear? As opposed to other cables? No, this is never a statement that they would make, since the entire industry knows that cables at audio frequencies are linear - that is, they don't change the sound.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[iMark]

I like listening to music and watching films imark - but there is a Big difference between a system actually playing music over playing just noise a very big difference in fact. If you went and heard the system I was on about earlier that was proper music, that is what impressed me so much - it actually sounded like real music it was epic,

I suggest you attend that show next year and hope that system is there again - its an eye opener for sure

I will believe the sound of that system only when I can play my favourite music on it and that I can't see the system or know the cost of it in order not to trigger my own expectation bias.

 

[ellisdj]

Get £20k worth of cables in then if £10k is not enough - thats even better - why dont you just do it and photograph it and feed it all back on here - it will make interesting reading.

You need to listen to your system for a week or more then go back to how it was and see if you notice any difference.

Or if you want lets do a system off I listen to yours with all cheap cables and you listen to mine with all money wasted on snake oil and see what the outcome of that is - thats easier

 

[shadders]

I like listening to music and watching films imark - but there is a Big difference between a system actually playing music over playing just noise a very big difference in fact. If you went and heard the system I was on about earlier that was proper music, that is what impressed me so much - it actually sounded like real music it was epic,

I suggest you attend that show next year and hope that system is there again - its an eye opener for sure

I will believe the sound of that system only when I can play my favourite music on it and that I can't see the system or know the cost of it in order not to trigger my own expectation bias.

Hi,

Yes, I think this is an important point, even those people who know that expectation bias exists, cannot counter it even when they try.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

I can put your music on no problem - the room is pitch black for a cinema so you dont have to see anything either. if you feel a tongue in your ear that will be expectation bias..... lol

if you feel pure bliss in your ear that will be the system lol

 

[ellisdj]

On the other hand I dont care what I see - I have seen loads of expensive systems sound terrible so I am happy to test with my eyes open.

 

[avole]

On the other hand I dont care what I see - I have seen loads of expensive systems sound terrible so I am happy to test with my eyes open.

I'll buy some 10000€ cables is you agree to do a blind test of them against 2 others - price unknown. If you can't pick the difference, you agree to buy all the cables from me for full retail price.

What is tested and how is up to me. Agreed?

 

[iMark]

Get £20k worth of cables in then if £10k is not enough - thats even better - why dont you just do it and photograph it and feed it all back on here - it will make interesting reading.

You need to listen to your system for a week or more then go back to how it was and see if you notice any difference.

Or if you want lets do a system off I listen to yours with all cheap cables and you listen to mine with all money wasted on snake oil and see what the outcome of that is - thats easier

That's the whole point. Throwing money at a system through more expensive cables won't improve anything. A proper cable will conduct the signal without adding noise or substracting information if it's been designed or produced within specifcation.

If I connect other cables myself to my system I will only trigger my own expectation bias. This type of test only works if someone else replaces the cables without the listener knowing. Cables play such a marginal role that the differences will most likely be inaudible.

I bet that if you have someone else change cables on your system you won't be able to tell which one is connected. And if you can, there's something wrong with one of the cables. i can understand why you don't want to believe that expectation bias is very real. It would be very hard to admit that you've wasted thousands on expensive cables that don't do anything that cheap cables don't do too.

 

[iMark]

On the other hand I dont care what I see - I have seen loads of expensive systems sound terrible so I am happy to test with my eyes open.

I'll buy some 10000€ cables is you agree to do a blind test of them against 2 others - price unknown. If you can't pick the difference, you agree to buy all the cables from me for full retail price.

What is tested and how is up to me. Agreed?

Is that you, James Randi?