What is good hi fi for you

[Gazzip]

The issue with double blind testing is of course that uncertainty under stress/duress creates its own set of psychological responses and biases. I personally subscribe to simple blind testing where the subject is in control of the A/B switch, thus eliminating any stress/duress and leaving the subject's mind more free to make a clear comparison...

I can see now why cable believers don't want to do any double blind testing. They're scared to death that their preconceptions might be disproved.

I am not a cable "believer" as you put it, but I do know that certain speaker cables can effect (but not "improve") the sound produced by loudspeakers by altering their FR. This is a scientifically accepted fact, you know that right? Whether they sound better or worse is a personal response which is down to the beholder. I personally don't mess about with speaker cables to change the sound, I change the electronics if I want to do that. Accordingly I have some nice Van Damme Blue in my system which cost me a few pounds per metre.

When it comes to digital interconnects I am a cable agnostic. I don't dispute the "bits are bits" argument as this can be measured and scientifically proven. I do however consider it possible that a digital audio cable may be susceptible to picking up unwanted passengers when moving those bits from a to b, and that any such noise fed in to a DAC's oscillators and other sensitive circuitry may induce jitter and other unwanted interference. Until this is proven to be a non-issue I am very interested in isolating any such noise. Alternatively I could spend my whole life as you do, doggedly refusing to try things until there is indisputable scientific proof either way. My way cannot hurt and can only improve my experience if my suspicions are right. Your way can at best not improve your experience and at worst could lead you to having an inferior musical experience.

Double blind testing is designed to confuse and is therefore widely considered to be problematic from a psychological perspective. The fear of being wrong can lead to the wrong answer being generated. The test in itself can generate the error. Blind testing, where the subject controls the switch and knows that he/she is listening to two different cables, would suffice for this type of test. If the cables sounded the same then the same result as DBX would be generated because the subject would still be guessing. If however the cables did sound different from one another then the results would be clear and we would have an answer.

 

[shadders]

As its only 15cm long I would have to use an extender then all the benefit of the better cable would be lost so its not a test I have done ........

Plus my printer doesnt have very good transients and quite often makes grinding and pulsing noises I cant always make out the vocals when I am listening to it........

Plus my usb cable is directional and using in the printer would be the wrong way.....

Hi,

1. You don't answer the relevant questions asked of you.

2. You complain when people make statements which are of an opposing view to yours.

3. Recently, you stated that a single cable change which is in the signal path, albeit 30 years old, is not valid and is not how to test that a cable affects the sound, yet you claim that a single cable change such as a mains cable which is NOT in the signal path, is the correct way to determine if a cable changes the sound.

4. You have encouraged others to pursue cable changes, were said cables are very expensive, despite that you don't know how their system sounds, yet, you use this aspect to counter others when they suggest changing cables to for example, Wifi, and then you claim they don't know your system, and hence cannot comment. That is, you are being hypocritical.

From the above, it is likely you are trolling people who do not agree with you, as a method of not answering their questions. There is a possibility that you do have a vested interest in people purchasing expensive hifi cables, despite the random proclamation that you don't.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Shadders and you dont get triggered easily.....? come off it man its too easy

 

[shadders]

Shadders and you dont get triggered easily.....? come off it man its too easy

Hi,

Ok, so you admit to trolling?

Either way, the result is that you have an agenda.

People on here have been courteous and serious in their replies, in an open discussion based forum, about a hobby everyone shares. All you have done is trolled those who disagree with your viewpoint, complained that they have written statements which you don't agree with, rather than counter them with valid arguments or answer their questions.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Right I am the troll - you have written the same thing 20 times

I encourage people to make their own minds up Shadders because that is the best and only approach to advising people. So on this forum I do encorage people to try cables and yes the more expensive ones so they dont have your approach I tried 1 cheap one 30 years ago didnt hear a difference and gave up. Its cheap for a reason.

Getting truly Great sound is not easy and I bet most people spend a life time wishing deep down they had it - in my eyes that is because they do not know how to get it and waste money and think law of dimishing returns exists and then think no point trying anymore, this is as good as it gets - that is how it reads to me on this forum anyway. Take IMarks comments for example - he probably classes himself as a seasoned HiFi vet with a lot of experience, different experience to me obviously.

I think mind set is wrong and I encourage people to not necessarily just box swop in hope for an upgrade, I encourage people to get a system of quality the like then build the infrastucture around it to make it sound as Truly Great is it can in the space you have. If someone has hundreds, thousands or millions to spend the same rule applies.

Even Gazzip that I hold in very high regard appears guilty of this - no surprise is he never settled if he is only using VD Blue ......

I have come to this conclusion after listening to as many different systems and setups as I can from cheap to uber expensive. There are parts that have been inspirational and glorious (preference learning curve) and parts damn right terrible even from excellent quality boxes.

So if it was just a case of buying good quality boxes we would all have truly great sound - but from my experience that has never been proved to me - the opposite in fact has.

I spent lots of time and money buying better quality boxes and it didnt really get me anywhere - went in circles in fact - frustrating.

Since then I have spent time and effort to learn about how sound works in a room using "science" then spent lots of money on snake oil and dreams and that has got me to a happy place with my sound quality at home, one that I am actually very proud of in terms of how it performs even after hearing all that I have. I have to thank XLO, JPlay / Jcat, Isotek for having a huge role in it. So I am very pro these products whether its all expectation bias or not - I dont give a hoot.

The "it must be proven by science" brigade in my eyes are the biggest hypocrits of them all.

Sound from a system in a room can be measured in many ways and then checked to see if its "good" or not.

However Shadders, IMark or anyone piping up how many of you can, actively do or even know how you do this or what to look for? If you do fair play, if you dont look in the mirror and see a hypocrit at work

For those that need science to prove everything then think about it you are trusting your ears every time you listen to your system - the same expectation biases and influence is at play here - yet I bet you hear that same sound quality time over when you listen to it

So if the ears are good enough for you to trust for the measurement of the actual Sound Quality from your system - which is more important than any other measurement to you, becasue its the measurement you are actually hearing then its good enough full stop.

Cant have it both ways - one or the other.

If your the other you better know Floyd Tooles book cover to cover just for starters

 

[iMark]

Since then I have spent time and effort to learn about how sound works in a room using "science" then spent lots of money on snake oil and dreams and that has got me to a happy place with my sound quality at home, one that I am actually very proud of in terms of how it performs even after hearing all that I have. I have to thank XLO, JPlay / Jcat, Isotek for having a huge role in it. So I am very pro these products whether its all expectation bias or not - I dont give a hoot.

'Nuff said.

 

[ellisdj]

Now whos skipping the question imark - big one at the end there for you??

 

[ellisdj]

Sorry I forgot to Mention GIK Acoustics - I wouldnt be anywhere without a room full of their products

 

[shadders]

Right I am the troll - you have written the same thing 20 times

I encourage people to make their own minds up Shadders because that is the best and only approach to advising people. So on this forum I do encorage people to try cables and yes the more expensive ones so they dont have your approach I tried 1 cheap one 30 years ago didnt hear a difference and gave up. Its cheap for a reason.

Getting truly Great sound is not easy and I bet most people spend a life time wishing deep down they had it - in my eyes that is because they do not know how to get it and waste money and think law of dimishing returns exists and then think no point trying anymore, this is as good as it gets - that is how it reads to me on this forum anyway. Take IMarks comments for example - he probably classes himself as a seasoned HiFi vet with a lot of experience, different experience to me obviously.

I think mind set is wrong and I encourage people to not necessarily just box swop in hope for an upgrade, I encourage people to get a system of quality the like then build the infrastucture around it to make it sound as Truly Great is it can in the space you have. If someone has hundreds, thousands or millions to spend the same rule applies.

Even Gazzip that I hold in very high regard appears guilty of this - no surprise is he never settled if he is only using VD Blue ......

I have come to this conclusion after listening to as many different systems and setups as I can from cheap to uber expensive. There are parts that have been inspirational and glorious (preference learning curve) and parts damn right terrible even from excellent quality boxes.

So if it was just a case of buying good quality boxes we would all have truly great sound - but from my experience that has never been proved to me - the opposite in fact has.

I spent lots of time and money buying better quality boxes and it didnt really get me anywhere - went in circles in fact - frustrating.

Since then I have spent time and effort to learn about how sound works in a room using "science" then spent lots of money on snake oil and dreams and that has got me to a happy place with my sound quality at home, one that I am actually very proud of in terms of how it performs even after hearing all that I have. I have to thank XLO, JPlay / Jcat, Isotek for having a huge role in it. So I am very pro these products whether its all expectation bias or not - I dont give a hoot.

The "it must be proven by science" brigade in my eyes are the biggest hypocrits of them all.

Sound from a system in a room can be measured in many ways and then checked to see if its "good" or not.

However Shadders, IMark or anyone piping up how many of you can, actively do or even know how you do this or what to look for? If you do fair play, if you dont look in the mirror and see a hypocrit at work

For those that need science to prove everything then think about it you are trusting your ears every time you listen to your system - the same expectation biases and influence is at play here - yet I bet you hear that same sound quality time over when you listen to it

So if the ears are good enough for you to trust for the measurement of the actual Sound Quality from your system - which is more important than any other measurement to you, becasue its the measurement you are actually hearing then its good enough full stop.

Cant have it both ways - one or the other.

If your the other you better know Floyd Tooles book cover to cover just for starters

Hi,

The cable costing £25 in 1985 would cost £73 in todays money. This is not a cheap phono to phono cable. You keep on referring to cost which is NOT what this is about.

If you change a cable to another brand with a different construction, then by YOUR statements and indications, I SHOULD hear a difference. I did not hear any difference, and your next answer to this, was

1. It was 30 years ago and therefore not valid.

2. I only changed a single cable and therefore it is not valid.

3. The cable in your assessment was cheap, and therefore not valid.

4. I need to read a book stated by you else my experience is not valid.

5. You do not believe in expectation bias, so anyones contrary opinion is not valid.

6. Despite science providing every piece of technology you have to create the sound you like, any science relating to cables which is contrary to your opinion is not valid.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Shadders let me reapeat the questions for you and the answer is a simple yes or no.

Can you Measure your systems performance within your room?

How would you do this?

What are you looking for in what measurement?

If No to the above are you a Huge Hyprocrit - ??? Come on answer honestly

 

[iMark]

Now whos skipping the question imark - big one at the end there for you??

There was no question.

 

[ellisdj]

Now whos skipping the question imark - big one at the end there for you??

There was no question.

See post #187 for clarification of the question

 

[shadders]

Shadders let me reapeat the questions for you and the answer is a simple yes or no.

Can you Measure your systems performance within your room?

How would you do this?

What are you looking for in what measurement?

If No to the above are you a Huge Hyprocrit - ??? Come on answer honestly

Hi,

Why would anyone have to measure their systems performance in their room?

All you have ever stated is that your ears have told you that there is a difference and that science with regards to cables and expectation bias is not relevant. So why are measurements suddenly important?

Why am I a hypocrite - please explain.

With regards to repeating, the only aspect myself and others have repeated is the science which you will not answer. We have given you copious examples to assist in understanding any view point provided.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[iMark]

Now whos skipping the question imark - big one at the end there for you??

There was no question.

See post #187 for clarification of the question

Those questions were for shadders.

Incidently, the stuff by GIK Acoustics makes a lot more sense than esoteric cables. So I think you're on to something there. It's not a path I intend to follow because our TV/audio listening area is in the living room and we quite like the sound we get at the moment. Acoustics are incredibly tricky to get right. I think most of us make do with the circumstances we've got. But it probably makes more sense to invest in acoustic tinkering than nonsensical cable tinkering. Acoustic tinkering has a real and immediate effect, which is highly doubtful when it comes to JCat stuff.

 

[avole]

Shadders and iMark. ellisdj has yet to learn the difference between being clever and being a smartarse, so humour him and let him dive into ever shallower waters until he works it out.

 

[ellisdj]

So actually measuring a systems performance within a room is not important to do - oh dear. oh dear oh dear.

You have a lot to learn shadders even after 30+ years

You can use a mic and software and that tells you everything the ear cant about a whole host of things - its hugely indepth I only know the basics, but I know how important that is, and its very apt as you say you take the ouright Scientific approach to hifi and yet you have never even considered measuring the speaker or systems performance within your room. Doesnt sound a very scientific approach to me - sounds like you just listen and judge same as most people

So for the overall Sound Quality and performance of your system you use only your ears? Correct?

You dont measure anything?

 

[avole]

of what I was talking about.

 

[ellisdj]

of what I was talking about.

Avole you are pipping up so lets ask you

Do you measure your system, Speakers room or anything as part of this hobby.

I will help you out do you have any idea what your bass reponse is at your listening position? Thats an easy one??

Show me

 

[shadders]

So actually measuring a systems performance within a room is not important to do - oh dear. oh dear oh dear.

You have a lot to learn shadders even after 30+ years

You can use a mic and software and that tells you everything the ear cant about a whole host of things - its hugely indepth I only know the basics, but I know how important that is, and its very apt as you say you take the ouright Scientific approach to hifi and yet you have never even considered measuring the speaker or systems performance within your room. Doesnt sound a very scientific approach to me - sounds like you just listen and judge same as most people

So for the overall Sound Quality and performance of your system you use only your ears? Correct?

You dont measure anything?

Hi,

I use the stated performance of the equipment, and enjoy the music as I hear it.

Using room measuring equipment as per AV capabilities, or other does NOT prove you know what your are talking about, nor that cables sound different.

You cannot take scientific or engineering aspects out of context and only apply those scientific rules/proofs that suit you.

Cables have been examined, discussed, researched for nearly 150 years, dating back to Maxwells equations etc., and there is NO, absolutely NO, proof that cables do sound different. If there was, then this would be repeated all over the cable manufacturers websites.

I expect you have an AV system where you place a microphone in the room, push a button, and the AV receiver equalises the signal to obtain a flat response for a room.

Being able to press a button does not make you an expert in room acoustics.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[avole]

You haven't learnt, have you? Those waters are getting ever shallower. Please stop, before you make yourself an object of further ridicule. You seem a pleasant enough chap.

 

[shadders]

of what I was talking about.

Hi,

I posted before I saw your reply. I think this is trolling rather than anything else.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Shadders measuring your room is nothing to do with AV its sound reproduction in general - last time I checked hifi is sound reproduction.

So we have got to the truth - you have no idea of what sound you are getting in your room from your system, you have no idea of your rooms acoustics and its effect on the sound of your system, or your bass reponse at your MLP or even how symmetrical the sound is from either of your streeo speakers

EDIT System specs tells you nothing, for all your wisdom you dont know this - if you think you are getting the freq response or even the extension from your speakers as they was designed or put on the spec sheet you are barking mad

This is not AV exclusive this is Sound Reproduction - so yes I am a smart arse and yes I am smarter than you give me credit for.

SCIENCE SCIENCE SCIENCE - Hifi Is Science - sound reproduction is science.

In 30 years you have never bothered to investigate this area - and yet its the most important aspect of sound reproduction.

This is the relevance - look at this paper on Good Sound - this is just one reference you can cross examine your own measurements to see if what your getting in your room actually constitutes good sound.

However for 30 years you have just used your ears and that has obviously "Good enough", I bet you have bought different speakers and witnessed changes in bass even though if you measured I bet it wouldnt measure anything like what you think you heard and yet thats been good enough

So its Completely and Utterly Hypocritical to say to anyone that doing their listening tests is no proof of anything - because for 30 years that is ALL you have done and yet I bet you have said to yourself "This is good sound" even though you have NO IDEA what sound you are actually getting. That is a fact because if you did you could show me graphically in many forms

Hopefully your getting my point by now - its simple either the ear is good enough or its not.

And saying science has never proved it is not good enough either - science has never proved your hifi sounds as it does but you have trusted your ears for 30 years, so banging on the drum that people using their ears is wrong is completely hypocritical and you should stop right now.

 

[Gazzip]

Can you Measure your systems performance within your room?

How would you do this?

What are you looking for in what measurement?

What software are using for taking room measurements Elisdj?

 

[iceman16]

Gazzip, Ellis have you tried MIT cables?

 

[iMark]

I don't think anyone is contradicting that acoustics play an important part in sound reproduction. Much more than equipment used. We all know what that sound changes when a curtain is drawn or a rug is placed on a wooden floor.

But most people don't have a listening room. And even if they do, I think it's pretty difficult to measure room acoustics. Tinkering with acoustics is a hobby that will never get to a perfect result because there is always something else to test or to upgrade. And there is always that niggling idea in the back of your mind that thinks that another combination was 'better'. And there lies the problem with the tinkering. It's never finished and Ellis will never be happy.

The combination of tinkering with both equipment and acoustics seems lethal to me and probably an almost complete waste of time.