What is good hi fi for you

[ellisdj]

Can you Measure your systems performance within your room?

How would you do this?

What are you looking for in what measurement?

What software are using for taking room measurements Elisdj? 

REW mate learning it is the best and worst thing an ocd hifi enthusiast can do.

Once you see how bad it really is in your room and trust me it will be it sparks a flame.

However you learn so much and can start piecing it together from there.

I modelled the bass in your room your lucky with just 2 subs and a high crossover you csn get excellent bass where you sit.

I need 4 in my room for the same

 

[ellisdj]

Gazzip, Ellis have you tried MIT cables?

No Mate I havent

 

[ellisdj]

I don't think anyone is contradicting that acoustics play an important part in sound reproduction. Much more than equipment used. We all know what that sound changes when a curtain is drawn or a rug is placed on a wooden floor.

But most people don't have a listening room. And even if they do, I think it's pretty difficult to measure room acoustics. Tinkering with acoustics is a hobby that will never get to a perfect result because there is always something else to test or to upgrade. And there is always that niggling idea in the back of your mind that thinks that another combination was 'better'. And there lies the problem with the tinkering. It's never finished and Ellis will never be happy.

The combination of tinkering with both equipment and acoustics seems lethal to me and probably an almost complete waste of time.

IMark measuring room acoustics is actually easy - and cheap.

30 years ago I am sure it wasnt but av receivers have been auto measuring for over 10 years so there has been access to equipment to do it for a long time. Now its made very easy with REW and a UMIK1 - cost hardly anything to get setup - just time to learn to do it and understanding what you see and using it to improve the sound in your room

That wasnt my point - my point was for atleast a decade you could have used science to prove what your system sounds like - you havent you have used your ears and that has been good enough for you.

I could show you now in some ways why my system sounds good - but you wouldnt understand them so there is no point - dont mean offence by that but it woudlnt benefit the conversation. I could also show you huge problems with it as well but I am aware of these.

You have raised a great point - "closing the curtains changes the sound" - have you measured that to actually check it does. I bet if you measured frequency, decay and even impulse response you would not see a sigificant difference in the measurements but you heard it. So who is right - you or the microphone - was it just expectation bias that closing the curtains changed the sound or did you hear it. Think about it - you have accepted that but never seen if its actually true or not.

I appreciate there is no science to prove my usb cable works in my system, I cannot scientifically prove it does, however in this instance just like you and the curtain I heard it do it and with far more effect than just closing some curtains. (This is just an example)

I am not saying that should change your opinion cables, far from - just maybe your tact with being so bullish about the subject on this forum because when its flipped round on you you have been just as guilty in other ways. You tell me this speaker sounded like this in your room or it did this to the bass even though I will doubt it knowing how bass works in a room I dont mention it and even if I dont believe you - I will leave you to it. Tact and let people make their own minds up.

At the moment I am extremely happy with my systems sound - however I dont stop I like to keep improving it - what a lovely task - lets see how good I can make a hifi sound. I am no messiah I dont make this stuff up I just bother to read, listen, learn and try it out.

The only science that I think is important is the science of the sound of a system in a room - thats the fundamentals of the systems sound - the rest is done by ear because that is for me the best way - the combo of both.

However you can use science all the way - I keep mentioning Floyd Tool - he is a science all the way man. That is a very interesting and informative watch. the science brigade will love it he says cables make no difference - yet he never blind tested any in 30 years of conducitng ABX Blind testing because his employer doesnt sell cables - so he doesnt really know either

 

[shadders]

Shadders measuring your room is nothing to do with AV its sound reproduction in general - last time I checked hifi is sound reproduction.

So we have got to the truth - you have no idea of what sound you are getting in your room from your system, you have no idea of your rooms acoustics and its effect on the sound of your system, or your bass reponse at your MLP or even how symmetrical the sound is from either of your streeo speakers

EDIT System specs tells you nothing, for all your wisdom you dont know this - if you think you are getting the freq response or even the extension from your speakers as they was designed or put on the spec sheet you are barking mad

This is not AV exclusive this is Sound Reproduction - so yes I am a smart arse and yes I am smarter than you give me credit for.

SCIENCE SCIENCE SCIENCE - Hifi Is Science - sound reproduction is science.

In 30 years you have never bothered to investigate this area - and yet its the most important aspect of sound reproduction.

This is the relevance - look at this paper on Good Sound - this is just one reference you can cross examine your own measurements to see if what your getting in your room actually constitutes good sound.

However for 30 years you have just used your ears and that has obviously "Good enough", I bet you have bought different speakers and witnessed changes in bass even though if you measured I bet it wouldnt measure anything like what you think you heard and yet thats been good enough

So its Completely and Utterly Hypocritical to say to anyone that doing their listening tests is no proof of anything - because for 30 years that is ALL you have done and yet I bet you have said to yourself "This is good sound" even though you have NO IDEA what sound you are actually getting. That is a fact because if you did you could show me graphically in many forms

Hopefully your getting my point by now - its simple either the ear is good enough or its not.

And saying science has never proved it is not good enough either - science has never proved your hifi sounds as it does but you have trusted your ears for 30 years, so banging on the drum that people using their ears is wrong is completely hypocritical and you should stop right now.

Hi,

The system performance is based on each of the components of the system. You are stating that since I do not know the final room result with regards to the frequency versus amplitude of my main listening position, based on a graph, then I don't know what sound I am getting. This is correct, I do not have a graph of the frequency response of my listening position.

You state that for 30 years I have been unaware of my sound I am getting, and therefore I am using my ears to determine that sound. Incorrect, I have been using my ears to enjoy the music, in the room I have placed the hifi, but I have never stated that I used my ears to calibrate my system.

The above has NOTHING to do with the sound of cables. Any cable of sufficient design should NEVER modify the frequency response at audio frequencies, and if it does, then my statement is that unless this is what was required, then it would be a waste of money.

In summary, you have mixed up the room equalisation with cable sound for some reason, and, also erroneously correlated that since I have never equalised my room, then I have used my ears to perform any such analysis. Your statements do not disprove anything myself and others have stated regarding cable sound and expectation bias.

A cable is effectively a bit of wire. All it will do in the audio band is modify the amplitude of the signal with respect to frequency.

What if your room euqalisation system reverses the effect of the cables (speaker, phono, mains etc)???

What you have effectively done is spent multiple thousands of £'s on cables, only for all those system changes to be undone by the equalisation process.

You either trust your ears implicitly, or not. You cannot state your ears are perfect for cable sound changes, and then claim anyone who has not used an equalisation system does not know what sound they are getting.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[chebby]

..

 

[ellisdj]

Shadders your on drugs - when did i mention equalisation. You go on keyboard warrior rants trying to spin the facts back in your favour. Good try but good fail.

You have been using your ears as a scientific tool to listen to your system hifi is science so is listening.

So when you change something how do you quantify the change to the sound by listening, measuring or abx blind testing it everytime.

I would guess just listening and i bet you couldn't measure half the changes you have heard in that time, the changes you made your buying decisions off.

So thats the absolute same thing regardless of how you spin it. You just wont accept it because you dont understand it quite clearly by bringing up eq .. doh

 

[chebby]

Shadders your on drugs ...

Whoah! That's nasty.

 

[ellisdj]

Shadders your on drugs ...

Whoah! That's nasty.

not where i come from if we cant handle a bit of banter dont play with the big boy's

 

[shadders]

Shadders your on drugs - when did i mention equalisation. You go on keyboard warrior rants trying to spin the facts back in your favour. Good try but good fail.

You have been using your ears as a scientific tool to listen to your system hifi is science so is listening.

So when you change something how do you quantify the change to the sound by listening, measuring or abx blind testing it everytime.

I would guess just listening and i bet you couldn't measure half the changes you have heard in that time, the changes you made your buying decisions off.

So thats the absolute same thing regardless of how you spin it. You just wont accept it because you dont understand it quite clearly by bringing up eq .. doh

Hi,

You have stated you measured the sound of your room, to determine its response. Ok, so measurement is not equalisation. You have stated you use REW and then added equipment to compensate for deficiencies. By adding extra equipment for deficiencies in what ever the method, is equalisation, albeit fine grained or coarse grained. REW is an acronym for Room EQ Wizard, and the EQ represents equalisation.

No, I have never stated I have been using my ears as a scientific tool, you are stating this. Just because you state something as a fact does not make it one.

I have stated that I made a cable change from and inexpensive cable to a more expensive one, and it made no difference, no matter how hard I tried to detect them. You then stated it was 30 years ago, and the cable was not expensive enough, hence not valid.

I know from science and experience, that changing cables will have no effect as long as they are sufficiently specified or constructed.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Same thing 21 times now lol and still spinning are you a politician.

I bet you was back in the day or a good sales man

You make me laugh shadders you really do fair play for your persistence your still wrong though dude btw

 

[shadders]

Same thing 21 times now lol and still spinning are you a politician.

I bet you was back in the day or a good sales man

You make me laugh shadders you really do fair play for your persistence your still wrong though dude btw

Hi,

Not the same thing 21 times. You do not agree with expectation bias, or scientific evidence that cables do not sound different, but will not state so. Unless you engage with the questions specifically with multiple examples by different people, then discussion will continue with the same subject.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Everyone else died of boredom ages ago from your repetitive monotone answers.

Its been all down to me to inject some life into this hopefully some humour as well. Although it seems a lot of old kronies have been pipping up.

Lets leave it like this you do it your way and live a life of cack sound.

I will do it my way and have a life of sonic bliss and if anyone wants any pointers of how to achieve it i only charge by the 15 minutes -minmum 3 hours obviously.

It is funny i have never heard a good system doing it your way all the good systems i have heard have been doing it my way. Funny that aint it

 

[lindsayt]

Coming back to the original theme of this thread. That £250k show system is not good hi-fi for me. It's average hi-fi.

Good hi-fi would be a system that sounded as good as or better than that Magico system and could be bought for a lot less. Somewhere in the region of £2.5k to £7.5k.

Great hi-fi would be doing that for under £1k.

Hi Lindasyt. I heard that system in Windsor and the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. The guy I was with is an oldskool speaker designer who usually dismisses passive speakers out of hand. Even he was blown away by that system. It was certainly the best I have heard.

I understand what you are getting at with your comments about value, but I'm afraid in this instance the system in question was so good that it would be a struggle to match at ANY price. That for me is truly great hifi.

What music / recording was being played when you and elllisdj heard it?

Was it vinyl or digital?

Were they recordings you'd heard before, or were familiar with?

To match or beat that system for £1k would probably require once in a lifetime finds, or better DIY skills than what I have, or greater knowledge / experience than what I have.

For £7.5k I'm confident I could match or beat the £250k system. If it were a pre-1983 recording I'd be very disappointed if I couldn't come up with sound quality a couple of notches above the £250k system. There's a very simple explanation to how I'd do that. I'd sort of cheat, but not cheat.

...And, by the way, I don't get the need to dispute ellisdj's USB cable listening tests. He heard an improvement to his ears in his system. He's happy with his purchase. That's great. I'll keep an open mind on USB cables until I can do my own listening tests in my own system.

 

[Gazzip]

Same thing 21 times now lol and still spinning are you a politician.

I bet you was back in the day or a good sales man

You make me laugh shadders you really do fair play for your persistence your still wrong though dude btw

Hi,

Not the same thing 21 times. You do not agree with expectation bias, or scientific evidence that cables do not sound different, but will not state so. Unless you engage with the questions specifically with multiple examples by different people, then discussion will continue with the same subject.

Regards,

Shadders.

That's not quite correct Shadders. Cable choice can effect sound characteristics, that is established scientific fact. For better or worse is a personal response.

 

[Gazzip]

Coming back to the original theme of this thread. That £250k show system is not good hi-fi for me. It's average hi-fi.

Good hi-fi would be a system that sounded as good as or better than that Magico system and could be bought for a lot less. Somewhere in the region of £2.5k to £7.5k.

Great hi-fi would be doing that for under £1k.

Hi Lindasyt. I heard that system in Windsor and the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. The guy I was with is an oldskool speaker designer who usually dismisses passive speakers out of hand. Even he was blown away by that system. It was certainly the best I have heard.

I understand what you are getting at with your comments about value, but I'm afraid in this instance the system in question was so good that it would be a struggle to match at ANY price. That for me is truly great hifi.

What music / recording was being played when you and elllisdj heard it?

Was it vinyl or digital?

Were they recordings you'd heard before, or were familiar with?

To match or beat that system for £1k would probably require once in a lifetime finds, or better DIY skills than what I have, or greater knowledge / experience than what I have.

For £7.5k I'm confident I could match or beat the £250k system. If it were a pre-1983 recording I'd be very disappointed if I couldn't come up with sound quality a couple of notches above the £250k system. There's a very simple explanation to how I'd do that. I'd sort of cheat, but not cheat.

...And, by the way, I don't get the need to dispute ellisdj's USB cable listening tests. He heard an improvement to his ears in his system. He's happy with his purchase. That's great. I'll keep an open mind on USB cables until I can do my own listening tests in my own system.

Hi Lindsayt, TBH I really cannot remember what music was playing, but it was definitely vinyl. I don't doubt you could come up with a fantastic system for £7.5K. You are a resourceful and knowledgeable guy from what I have read here and elsewhere. Would your £7.5K system beat that £250K system? Who knows, but if that bake off ever happens can I come!

BTW how would you cheat and why is 1983 significant? You don't drive a modded silver Delorean do you? *biggrin*

 

[shadders]

Everyone else died of boredom ages ago from your repetitive monotone answers.

Its been all down to me to inject some life into this hopefully some humour as well. Although it seems a lot of old kronies have been pipping up.

Lets leave it like this you do it your way and live a life of cack sound.

I will do it my way and have a life of sonic bliss and if anyone wants any pointers of how to achieve it i only charge by the 15 minutes -minmum 3 hours obviously.

It is funny i have never heard a good system doing it your way all the good systems i have heard have been doing it my way. Funny that aint it

Hi,

No, not boredom, probably waiting for fireworks. Anyway, most people are happy with their sound, or looking to improve it. I am not sure that your way is the only way, and all other avenues that differ from yours will sound bad.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Lindseyt i heard wicked by chris issak

And johnny cash @ belmont prison not sure the cut

I wasnt familiar at the time but came home and bought both. They are good sounding tracks

It was playing off vinyl it was a clearer audio turntable big one in the picture.

If you can beat that for 7k i will come listen but youre talking very special.

If you can get a vocal pure silence around it like that - your better than every one else at that show because none of the others could inc old jbl classic speakers in your style. Really upgraded special ones didnt off levinson didnt hold a candle to it

 

[ellisdj]

Everyone else died of boredom ages ago from your repetitive monotone answers.

Its been all down to me to inject some life into this hopefully some humour as well. Although it seems a lot of old kronies have been pipping up.

Lets leave it like this you do it your way and live a life of cack sound.

I will do it my way and have a life of sonic bliss and if anyone wants any pointers of how to achieve it i only charge by the 15 minutes -minmum 3 hours obviously.

It is funny i have never heard a good system doing it your way all the good systems i have heard have been doing it my way. Funny that aint it

Hi,

No, not boredom, probably waiting for fireworks. Anyway, most people are happy with their sound, or looking to improve it. I am not sure that your way is the only way, and all other avenues that differ from yours will sound bad.

Regards,

Shadders.

Not the only way for sure - just the best ....

 

[shadders]

Same thing 21 times now lol and still spinning are you a politician.

I bet you was back in the day or a good sales man

You make me laugh shadders you really do fair play for your persistence your still wrong though dude btw

Hi,

Not the same thing 21 times. You do not agree with expectation bias, or scientific evidence that cables do not sound different, but will not state so. Unless you engage with the questions specifically with multiple examples by different people, then discussion will continue with the same subject.

Regards,

Shadders.

That's not quite correct Shadders. Cable choice can effect sound characteristics, that is established scientific fact. For better or worse is a personal response.

Hi,

Do you the have the reference where double blind testing has proven that similarly constructed cables do sound different?

When I state similar, I mean LCR parameters within 10% of each other?

Thanks and regards,

Shadders.

 

[Gazzip]

Same thing 21 times now lol and still spinning are you a politician.

I bet you was back in the day or a good sales man

You make me laugh shadders you really do fair play for your persistence your still wrong though dude btw

Hi,

Not the same thing 21 times. You do not agree with expectation bias, or scientific evidence that cables do not sound different, but will not state so. Unless you engage with the questions specifically with multiple examples by different people, then discussion will continue with the same subject.

Regards,

Shadders.

That's not quite correct Shadders. Cable choice can effect sound characteristics, that is established scientific fact. For better or worse is a personal response.

Hi,

Do you the have the reference where double blind testing has proven that similarly constructed cables do sound different?

When I state similar, I mean LCR parameters within 10% of each other?

Thanks and regards,

Shadders.

I didn't say anything about the cables being similarly constructed.

 

[shadders]

Same thing 21 times now lol and still spinning are you a politician.

I bet you was back in the day or a good sales man

You make me laugh shadders you really do fair play for your persistence your still wrong though dude btw

Hi,

Not the same thing 21 times. You do not agree with expectation bias, or scientific evidence that cables do not sound different, but will not state so. Unless you engage with the questions specifically with multiple examples by different people, then discussion will continue with the same subject.

Regards,

Shadders.

That's not quite correct Shadders. Cable choice can effect sound characteristics, that is established scientific fact. For better or worse is a personal response.

Hi,

Do you the have the reference where double blind testing has proven that similarly constructed cables do sound different?

When I state similar, I mean LCR parameters within 10% of each other?

Thanks and regards,

Shadders.

I didn't say anything about the cables being similarly constructed.

Hi,

Ok, do you have a reference where double blind testing was implemented where the results show that a difference could be detected?

What was the variation of the LCR parameters?

Thanks and regards,

Shadders.

 

[lindsayt]

Hi Lindsayt, TBH I really cannot remember what music was playing, but it was definitely vinyl. I don't doubt you could come up with a fantastic system for £7.5K. You are a resourceful and knowledgeable guy from what I have read here and elsewhere. Would your £7.5K system beat that £250K system? Who knows, but if that bake off ever happens can I come!

BTW how would you cheat and why is 1983 significant? You don't drive a modded silver Delorean do you? *biggrin*

Pre 1983 for analogue era recordings. For that era, digital transfers haven't done it for me, when compared to their non-compilation vinyl original releases.

When it comes to vinyl, reel to reel beats it by a couple of notches. And that would be my sort of cheat.

In the midrange I also prefer SET to solid state amplification. And for speakers I prefer compression drivers and horns to direct radiator speakers.

 

[iMark]

IMark measuring room acoustics is actually easy - and cheap.

30 years ago I am sure it wasnt but av receivers have been auto measuring for over 10 years so there has been access to equipment to do it for a long time. Now its made very easy with REW and a UMIK1 - cost hardly anything to get setup - just time to learn to do it and understanding what you see and using it to improve the sound in your room

That wasnt my point - my point was for atleast a decade you could have used science to prove what your system sounds like - you havent you have used your ears and that has been good enough for you.

I could show you now in some ways why my system sounds good - but you wouldnt understand them so there is no point - dont mean offence by that but it woudlnt benefit the conversation. I could also show you huge problems with it as well but I am aware of these.

You have raised a great point - "closing the curtains changes the sound" - have you measured that to actually check it does. I bet if you measured frequency, decay and even impulse response you would not see a sigificant difference in the measurements but you heard it. So who is right - you or the microphone - was it just expectation bias that closing the curtains changed the sound or did you hear it. Think about it - you have accepted that but never seen if its actually true or not.

I appreciate there is no science to prove my usb cable works in my system, I cannot scientifically prove it does, however in this instance just like you and the curtain I heard it do it and with far more effect than just closing some curtains. (This is just an example)

I am not saying that should change your opinion cables, far from - just maybe your tact with being so bullish about the subject on this forum because when its flipped round on you you have been just as guilty in other ways. You tell me this speaker sounded like this in your room or it did this to the bass even though I will doubt it knowing how bass works in a room I dont mention it and even if I dont believe you - I will leave you to it. Tact and let people make their own minds up.

At the moment I am extremely happy with my systems sound - however I dont stop I like to keep improving it - what a lovely task - lets see how good I can make a hifi sound. I am no messiah I dont make this stuff up I just bother to read, listen, learn and try it out.

The only science that I think is important is the science of the sound of a system in a room - thats the fundamentals of the systems sound - the rest is done by ear because that is for me the best way - the combo of both.

However you can use science all the way - I keep mentioning Floyd Tool - he is a science all the way man. That is a very interesting and informative watch. the science brigade will love it he says cables make no difference - yet he never blind tested any in 30 years of conducitng ABX Blind testing because his employer doesnt sell cables - so he doesnt really know either

You really haven't understood a word of what I've said. I haven't contradicted that acoustics play a very important role in sound reproduction. I haven't contradicted that acoustics can be measured. Between the lines you could have concluded that I can't be bothered too much with the acoustics in our living room. It is what it is and it sounds pretty good to us. It could probably sound better with a bit or a lot of effort.

But what I completely don't understand is that when you obviously know a bit about acoustics, you still would invest in stuff that at best makes a minute bit of difference in sound reproduction when all audible improvements can be made through improving acoustics. It just doesn't make any sense to me to spend thousands on cables while the audible, proven and measurable improvements can be made by investing in acoustics.

 

[ellisdj]

Imark i have undestood you completely you havent understood me at all by the sounds of it nevermind I am not going over it all again so we will just leave it.

If you remove reflection and echo from a room what are you left with - much much more of the direct sound from the speaker with much much less interaction from the room skewing what you hear.

My room is decked out with more treatment than bare wall i absolutely love it. Look at my avatar

So who is hearing more of what their system is actually doing me with all the treatment minimal reflection so hearing much more of the direct sound from the speakers / system

Or you for example with no treatment lots of reflections so lots of echo and late arriving sound adding to the original sound - in fact your probably hearing more echo than original sound.

That is fine if you like it like that however when it comes to listening for changes to a system from anything cables in this instance what system is giving the most accurate representation of this change

The system with much less added by the room
Or the system with more room sound than original sound?

Its pretty obvious one really
so if i am using the cable and hearing the difference i say i am its a far more credible situation for me to say that than you saying you can't hear it when you are hearing more room echo than original sound anyway. Maybe that is why?

I use them because they make my system sound much better if they didnt i wouldnt i would buy something else. I am far from rich i have to work hard for what i have i an happy to spend that hard earned money on stuff only if I think its worth it. If you dont think its worth it thats fine it has no influence on me at all though. Never will.

 

[iMark]

Imark i have undestood you completely you havent understood me at all by the sounds of it nevermind I am not going over it all again so we will just leave it.

And that's the reason why you post a lecture on room acoustics?

If you remove reflection and echo from a room what are you left with - much much more of the direct sound from the speaker with much much less interaction from the room skewing what you hear.

My room is decked out with more treatment than bare wall i absolutely love it. Look at my avatar

So who is hearing more of what their system is actually doing me with all the treatment minimal reflection so hearing much more of the direct sound from the speakers / system

Or you for example with no treatment lots of reflections so lots of echo and late arriving sound adding to the original sound - in fact your probably hearing more echo than original sound.

That is fine if you like it like that however when it comes to listening for changes to a system from anything cables in this instance what system is giving the most accurate representation of this change

The system with much less added by the room Or the system with more room sound than original sound?

Its pretty obvious one really so if i am using the cable and hearing the difference i say i am its a far more credible situation for me to say that than you saying you can't hear it when you are hearing more room echo than original sound anyway. Maybe that is why?

I use them because they make my system sound much better if they didnt i wouldnt i would buy something else. I am far from rich i have to work hard for what i have i an happy to spend that hard earned money on stuff only if I think its worth it. If you dont think its worth it thats fine it has no influence on me at all though. Never will.

If cables really make an audible difference for you in your system (in the room with all the acoustic improvements) than there a couple of possible explanations.

1. Faulty cables (or cable that either add noise or remove information from the original signal)

2. Faulty equipment

3. Hearing problems

4. Expectation bias

Expectation bias seems the most likely culprit of you hearing differences when you change cables in your system. You could test this by having a third party change cables without telling you what cable is actually plugged it. Apparently you're not interested in doing that. You claim practical reasons. But if you were really interested in eliminating your own expectation bias you would find a way to do it.

I really don't understand the mind boggling inconsistencies in your thinking. Quite rightly you measure your room acoustics and implement measures to improve the acoustics. This is all audible and can be measured. At the same time you believe in all sorts of cable voodoo. It's extremely unlikely that cabling will have an audible and measurable impact on what you hear. It's like going to a doctor to have a medical problem treated and after it's been treated seeing an alternative 'doctor' who gives you homeopatic medicine. After both treatments you then claim that the homeopathic medicine had a major impact, even more than the original conventional treatment.