What is good hi fi for you

[ellisdj]

IMark it is me who doesnt understand your way of seeing it also

Let me try and explain it better what I am trying to say.

Its hypocritical to say to someone that by using their own ears they formed an opinion on something like the effect of a cable change on their own system because science hasnt proved it made a difference - but yet they heard it

When all your life you have been using your ears to analyse the sound of your system which is no different as it actually requires measuring for you to be scientifically sure what your hearing is not expectation bias etc just the same. So for everything you change in this hobby with your system your actually saying it needs to be as a mimum measured, analysed, cross referenced then abx blind tested for you to be 100% sure your not imagining it before you decide to keep it in the system - or do you just to listen to it and make your own mind up?

You cant have it both ways - you cant criticise someone for hearing changes that are not proven and forming an opinion when you are doing the same thing - you probably dont realise you are because you are un aware of what can be measured in terms of sound but you actually are.

So are the ears good enough as a measuring tool for sound quality or are they not?

I could do a blind test myself, that would be interesting and fun and I havent done it - so that does make me hypocritical the same in being pro cables I am aware of that - hands held up. Same as you over the last 30 years could have done the full loom cable test (blind) we was discussing yesterday but you havent.

 

[avole]

of hypocritical.

iMark isn't being hypocritical in your example, but you might be.

 

[ellisdj]

Avole explain how he is not? Sorry and how I am ?

 

[shadders]

Avole explain how he is not? Sorry and how I am ?

Hi,

To explain some aspect of this, a pair of speakers, an amplifier, a CD player/DAC, etc., the constituent parts of this equipment provide a combination of variation of the order of millions. That is, there are a million ways to build an amplifier, at least, as an example.

How many ways do you think there are of making a cable using copper wire and an insulator?

The purpose of a cable is to have no resistance, no capacitance, and no inductance, and to complete the picture, no conductance across the pair. Cable manufacturers will minimise as much as possible these parameters. Whether the cable is braided, solid core, stranded or whatever the technique, these paramaters WILL NEED TO BE MINIMISED FOR THE CABLE TO BE ACCEPTABLE.

So, the bigger the cross sectional area, the lower the resistance, the bigger the gap between conductors the lower the capacitance etc. And that is it. It is a bit of wire. What goes in comes out the other end, with a slight amplitude reduction. Science has been studying this for 150 years, and there are no new revelations.

So measuring equipment is valid, and measurements will "indicate" that different amplifiers or speakers sound different. Given the combinations possible, then these will sound different, and scientific measurement correlates with this. What we don't know, is what measurements indicate which perceived sound for many aspects, such as, does damping factor definitely make a system sound tighter if the damping factor is very high etc.

With speaker cables, what goes in, comes out with a slight reduction in voltage. Apologies for repeating this.

You don't measure with your ears, like a scientific instrument - you cannot state the frequency range is 2dB down at 10kHz. All you can say is that it is lower at the higher frequencies. You then measure it, and indeed there is a reduction in the higher frequencies.

For a cable, you state you are hearing a difference, yet when you measure it, you do not see any change in measurement. Why do you think that is?

So when people use their ears to listen to speakers, or an amplifier, they can hear a difference, quite simply because there is such a vast combination of parameters that do vary considerably, that this is heard. That is why people use their ears for listening to speakers or amplifiers, since the do vary in measured performance, and they do vary in sound, but cables don't.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Good post Shadders well written sir - I thought you was quiet had your head in the books looking all that up.

Fair play - you have done all your reseach on the boxes - bought cables that fit the criteria take them all home plug it all in turn it on and you get Holly Glory sound - a sound so good you want everyone to hear it? Your so confident that you could play any song and it would sound glorious off CD

Would you say that is true?

PS obviously wasted no money on anything snake oil

 

[shadders]

Good post Shadders well written sir - I thought you was quiet had your head in the books looking all that up.

Fair play - you have done all your reseach on the boxes - bought cables that fit the criteria take them all home plug it all in turn it on and you get Holly Glory sound - a sound so good you want everyone to hear it? Your so confident that you could play any song and it would sound glorious off CD

Would you say that is true?

PS obviously wasted no money on anything snake oil

Hi,

I have tried biwiring using 79strand and solid core mains, and I could not detect any changes. I have tried a relatively expensive cable for phono to phono connection, and no changes could be heard.

Whatever combination of speakers and amplifier I prefer, the preference is personal, but science does support that there are differences. This is not the same for cables.

However my system sounds, I don't promote it as the best, as many people are not bothered. Even if it was the best, I still would not promote it, people today are not interested. Anyway, it is subjective.

Given that, I am aware of the science of Hifi, and previous experience on experimenting with cables resulted in no benefit at all. I have tried to determine that there is a difference, but I couldn't hear it. So I never purchase expensive cables as I cannot hear any difference.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

So your saying that is all that is needed for true glorious sound?

 

[shadders]

So your saying that is all that is needed for true glorious sound?

Hi,

I am not sure what you are trying to derive here. I have tried an expensive cable, and biwiring, and heard no improvement or change. Essentially as long as the cable is well constructed and meets a minimum specification, it will complete the task required.

A subjective experience is just that, an experience. You are happy with yours, and I am happy with mine.

Discussing cables is not confined to subjective experiences only. My understanding and approach is from the scientific area, although, I initially did believe the magazines that cables make a difference, purchased an expensive phono cable, and was disappointed. No change.

As such, being happy with your set up is of the utmost importance, but on an open forum, all opinions must be allowed to be aired, and discussion engaged with.

With regards to this discussion, no one is disputing your subjective experience, but people are disputing whether the changes you hear or promote, do in fact, actually exist - hence the focus on expectation bias.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[iMark]

IMark it is me who doesnt understand your way of seeing it also

You could have fooled me.

Let me try and explain it better what I am trying to say.

Its hypocritical to say to someone that by using their own ears they formed an opinion on something like the effect of a cable change on their own system because science hasnt proved it made a difference - but yet they heard it

I don't think anyone has said that. The only thing I've said that it's extremely unlikely that you can hear differences. So the most likely explanation for your thinking you're hearing differences is bias expectation. If fully understand though that by making acoustic changes to your room you get audible differences in the sound reproduction.

When all your life you have been using your ears to analyse the sound of your system which is no different as it actually requires measuring for you to be scientifically sure what your hearing is not expectation bias etc just the same. So for everything you change in this hobby with your system your actually saying it needs to be as a mimum measured, analysed, cross referenced then abx blind tested for you to be 100% sure your not imagining it before you decide to keep it in the system - or do you just to listen to it and make your own mind up?

No, that's not what I've said at all. I'm simply aware of the fact that my extremely well made and snug fitting Ixos phono cables are highly unlikely to sound any better than el cheapo audio cables. They look very impressive though so my own expectation bias will say that they sound 'better'.

Another problem in HiFi-land is the definition of 'better'. Or 'warmer'. Or 'more musical'. My definition is quite simple. If a recorded Steinway piano sounds like a Steinway piano, it's probably OK. 'Warm' sound to me is very attractive for exactly 5 minutes. Then it will start to fatigue me.

[quote ellisdj]You cant have it both ways - you cant criticise someone for hearing changes that are not proven and forming an opinion when you are doing the same thing - you probably dont realise you are because you are un aware of what can be measured in terms of sound but you actually are.[/quote]

That is a nonsencical statement.

So are the ears good enough as a measuring tool for sound quality or are they not?

I don't measure with my ears. I listen with my ears. I have a mental reference guide of what I like in sound reproduction and what I don't like. I wouldn't call that measuring. It's more comparing to my mental reference guide, which is personal and subjective.

I could do a blind test myself, that would be interesting and fun and I havent done it - so that does make me hypocritical the same in being pro cables I am aware of that - hands held up. Same as you over the last 30 years could have done the full loom cable test (blind) we was discussing yesterday but you havent.

Finally you admit that not doing any blind testing makes you a hypocrite when making all kinds of statements about the quality of one cable compared to another.

 

[ellisdj]

IMark - how can you trust anything you hear though - the ears are unreliable and expectation bias is prevalent

 

[chebby]

Ellis, I have tried to read the last few of your larger posts and your written English is dreadful. (Grammar and spelling and general use.) It's truly painful.

I understand if English is your second language (sorry if that the case), but I can't carry on watching it being 'murdered' like this.

I also can't carry on reading you 'murdering' science with complete abandon and with no respect paid to the principles of electronics and technology that makes all of our hi-fi equipment possible. (Makes the entire modern world possible in fact.)

I can't stand 'science denial' especially from people who argue against science using it's products (like smart phones and computers and the internet etc.).

I'm going to stop reading any of your posts from now on. They are bad for me because your arrogance (Ellis vs Physics) is intolerable and makes me just a little angry.

You are certainly no advert for your faith-based accessory choices. You have a playground style of rhetoric ("he started it", "you must be deaf", "he's on drugs" etc.) that is unattractive and can't be helping your 'cause'.

 

[ellisdj]

Ellis, I have tried to read the last few of your larger posts and your written English is dreadful. (Grammar and spelling and general use.) It's truly painful.

I understand if English is your second language (sorry if that the case), but I can't carry on watching it being 'murdered' like this.

I also can't carry on reading you 'murdering' science with complete abandon and with no respect paid to the principles of electronics and technology that makes all of our hi-fi equipment possible. (Makes the entire modern world possible in fact.)

I can't stand 'science denial' especially from people who argue against science using it's products (like smart phones and computers and the internet etc.).

I'm going to stop reading any of your posts from now on. They are bad for me because your arrogance (Ellis vs Physics) is intolerable and makes me just a little angry.

You are certainly no advert for your faith-based accessory choices. You have a playground style of rhetoric ("he started it", "you must be deaf", "he's on drugs" etc.) that is unattractive and can't be helping your 'cause'.

In that case shab (not the word I would choose) off - no one is forcing you to read what I am writing and if it makes you feel a big man to write what you have good for you. I would never insult anyone for how they type on a forum, that is actually pretty pathetic from a man who is clearly superior to me in intelligence you have stooped to a serious low.

How dare you, who do you honestly think you are writing that comment - I cant use the words I would like to

Actually you had better call the police - there has been a murder, a murder of science - surely not....

 

[iMark]

IMark - how can you trust anything you hear though - the ears are unreliable and expectation bias is prevalent

By acknowledging my own limitations.

I can throw your own question back at you. Your ears are unreliable too and you also suffer from expectation bias. How can you say that you hear (big) differences if your mind might be playing tricks on you?

Remember what I wrote in an earlier post about cheap wine in expensive bottles. The same wine tasted better and had 'more depth of flavour' when served in an expensive looking bottle. A manufacturer could do the same thing with cables. Put cheap cable in expensive looking packiging and let Ellis use it in his HiFi. He will most certainly claim that he can hear a difference.

There's a sucker born every minute. (P.T. Barnum)

 

[iMark]

You havent heard my system - you cannot comment on its performance, its all that matters nothing else, its nothing to do with believing in anything its just how the system performs every day. You would not think I have wasted money if you had heard it I am confident of that- so the rest of your comments is just noise to me - pointless

Obviously I can't comment about your system since I haven't heard it. I can comment though on your lack of critical thinking and believing in digital cable voodoo. If you buy good kit, it will sound good. At best cables don't interfere with the signal transport. At worst, they will deteriota the signal. If you believe that you hear that esoteric digital cables make one iota of difference I recommend seeing an audiologist or other professional.

HiFi is a typical subject where the laws of diminishing returns operate. You can make big strides moving from a boom box to a decent or even good stereo on a limited budget. The more money you throw at a system will make it sound marginally better and those margins become smaller the more money you throw at it.

I often wonder if the HiFi-enthousiasts with more money than sense even like music or is the HiFi simply there to listen to the system rather than music?

When I started out in HiFi on a limited scale everyone was talking about reducing noise, wow and flutter etc. Now we have digital recording and playback people worry about jitter, which is negligable compared to a slightly off centre or warped record. Tape noise is real. Anyone can hear that. Digital jitter can possible be measured but probalby don't have any consequences in the real world.

 

[ellisdj]

I am happy to answer that question for you - I am and have always been happy with my and anyone else subjective opininon and have never challenged anyones subjective opinion like you all have been of mine.

However you have resorted to personal insults because I have pointed out to you that for the whole time you have been into hifi regardless of how you see it you have been doing the exact same thing. But I bet you can sleep at night because everything you know is proven by science and yet the sound of your system in your room is no more proven by science than my cables not working.

I am sorry dude wake up and smell the roses - you have and that is why you resorted to a personal insult unecessarily I feel. I feel very offended by your comment

 

[iMark]

I am happy to answer that question for you - I am and have always been happy with my and anyone else subjective opininon and have never challenged anyones subjective opinion like you all have been of mine.

I don't understand this logic. Subjective opinions are there to be challenged. If they were objective, by definition they couldn't be challenged.

[quote-ellisdj]However you have resorted to personal insults because I have pointed out to you that for the whole time you have been into hifi regardless of how you see it you have been doing the exact same thing. But I bet you can sleep at night because everything you know is proven by science and yet the sound of your system in your room is no more proven by science than my cables not working.

I am sorry dude wake up and smell the roses - you have and that is why you resorted to a personal insult unecessarily I feel. I feel very offended by your comment

[/quote]

I apologise if I have offended you. I suppose nuance got lost because I'm writing in a foreign language.

I still don't understand what the sound of my system in my room has to do with your cables. I've never claimed that my system is the best. I've never claimed anything. You however claim to hear differences between cables in your system while at the same time acknowledging that you've never done any blind testing. So my conclusion is that all your statements about cables are unsubstantiated because they're only based on you hearing the setup while fully being aware of what was plugged in.

 

[avole]

is that you're out of your depth and are using your subjective opinion to hide the fact you don't understand the science.

 

[shadders]

I am happy to answer that question for you - I am and have always been happy with my and anyone else subjective opininon and have never challenged anyones subjective opinion like you all have been of mine.

However you have resorted to personal insults because I have pointed out to you that for the whole time you have been into hifi regardless of how you see it you have been doing the exact same thing. But I bet you can sleep at night because everything you know is proven by science and yet the sound of your system in your room is no more proven by science than my cables not working.

I am sorry dude wake up and smell the roses - you have and that is why you resorted to a personal insult unecessarily I feel. I feel very offended by your comment

Hi,

No one is challenging your subjective experience or opinion derived from your experience.

People are challenging whether the change you heard, actually exists.

There are many optical illusions, such as lines that do not look parallel, but they are parallel.

MP3 is a lossy compression algorithm, and relies upon some sounds of a specific volume masking others of a lower volume, in terms of human hearing, and so they don't encode the lower volume sound. This is a very rough example.

Many people cannot tell the difference between the original and the compressed file. The brain is easily fooled.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Shadders you are happy to accept my subjective view then what was the point of the last 5 pages except for me to be sarcastic, deliberately antagonistic to see who will trigger and Chebby wins that one. I thought he might be back for a second go I still think he was out of line complaining about my grammar - I am trying to keep up with this and work - seeing as your waiting for my responses I am not doing too bad. And I was trying to make it funny at the same time for those who are not wound so tight that they squeek when they walk. Anyway

As I have been trying to point out and I think crossed wire with IMark - measuring the room is not related to cables. But science doesnt stop at the speaker - so if your not using science all the way to your ear any opinion formed is still purely subjective and therefore worth no more or no less than any other subjective opinion. Why cant we just be happy with that?

Avole thanks for the 2 lines of description - that has changed a lot for me thanks

 

[iMark]

Shadders you are happy to accept my subjective view then what was the point of the last 5 pages except for me to be sarcastic, deliberately antagonistic to see who will trigger and Chebby wins that one. I thought he might be back for a second go I still think he was out of line complaining about my grammar - I am trying to keep up with this and work - seeing as your waiting for my responses I am not doing too bad. And I was trying to make it funny at the same time for those who are not wound so tight that they squeek when they walk. Anyway

As I have been trying to point out and I think crossed wire with IMark - measuring the room is not related to cables. But science doesnt stop at the speaker - so if your not using science all the way to your ear any opinion formed is still purely subjective and therefore worth no more or no less than any other subjective opinion. Why cant we just be happy with that?

I don't have a clue what this all means. I have tried to comment on previous posts in sections but I can't make heads or tails of this one. At the same time I don't think you understand what shadders and I have written either.

To me it's nothing to do with being sarcastic or antagonistic. I try to work out why someone posts statements that to me seem completely unsubstantiated. "Science doesn't stop at the speaker" has to be the quote of the week. No idea what it means, but it sounds great!

 

[shadders]

Shadders you are happy to accept my subjective view then what was the point of the last 5 pages except for me to be sarcastic, deliberately antagonistic to see who will trigger and Chebby wins that one. I thought he might be back for a second go I still think he was out of line complaining about my grammar - I am trying to keep up with this and work - seeing as your waiting for my responses I am not doing too bad. And I was trying to make it funny at the same time for those who are not wound so tight that they squeek when they walk. Anyway

As I have been trying to point out and I think crossed wire with IMark - measuring the room is not related to cables. But science doesnt stop at the speaker - so if your not using science all the way to your ear any opinion formed is still purely subjective and therefore worth no more or no less than any other subjective opinion. Why cant we just be happy with that?

Avole thanks for the 2 lines of description - that has changed a lot for me thanks

Hi,

No one is disputing anyone else's subjective experience. What is being questioned is, whether the change you hear, exists.

Science proves it does not. Some people's experience also states it does not. Your subjective experience is that a change does exist.

Any testing completed previously will have been conducted under the correct conditions. You have to accept that.

On the room equalisation aspect. You are stating that your modifications to the room and additional equipment to cater for the measured deficiencies results in a near perfect room condition, or best that it can be.

You then make a change to a cable, and listen, and hear a difference.

Is the change you hear, real or expectation bias?

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[ellisdj]

Shadders you are happy to accept my subjective view then what was the point of the last 5 pages except for me to be sarcastic, deliberately antagonistic to see who will trigger and Chebby wins that one.  I thought he might be back for a second go I still think he was out of line complaining about my grammar - I am trying to keep up with this and work - seeing as your waiting for my responses I am not doing too bad.  And I was trying to make it funny at the same time for those who are not wound so tight that they squeek when they walk.  Anyway

As I have been trying to point out and I think crossed wire with IMark - measuring the room is not related to cables.  But science doesnt stop at the speaker - so if your not using science all the way to your ear any opinion formed is still purely subjective and therefore worth no more or no less than any other subjective opinion.  Why cant we just be happy with that?

I don't have a clue what this all means. I have tried to comment on previous posts in sections but I can't make heads or tails of this one. At the same time I don't think you understand what shadders and I have written either. 

To me it's nothing to do with being sarcastic or antagonistic. I try to work out why someone posts statements that to me seem completely unsubstantiated. "Science doesn't stop at the speaker" has to be the quote of the week. No idea what it means, but it sounds great!

Imark you dont get it because you dont understand the science of sound reproduction doesnt stop at the speaker so any opinion made on the sound of a system is subjective unless its measured and proven. Whats hard to understand about that?

A basic one - this system has good bass - how do you know? You dont its subjective but you can measure that and see.

Or i read this one all the time these speakers are neutral - are they really? Watch the floyd toole lecture video i linked to as he talks all about that. Very interesting video about sound reproduction and speaker performance

 

[Gazzip]

This thread is a car crash guys. Surely it is time to stop? You are not going to agree because you are poles apart in your views, so why continue with this? It is pointless.

 

[ellisdj]

Shadders you are happy to accept my subjective view then what was the point of the last 5 pages except for me to be sarcastic, deliberately antagonistic to see who will trigger and Chebby wins that one.  I thought he might be back for a second go I still think he was out of line complaining about my grammar - I am trying to keep up with this and work - seeing as your waiting for my responses I am not doing too bad.  And I was trying to make it funny at the same time for those who are not wound so tight that they squeek when they walk.  Anyway

As I have been trying to point out and I think crossed wire with IMark - measuring the room is not related to cables.  But science doesnt stop at the speaker - so if your not using science all the way to your ear any opinion formed is still purely subjective and therefore worth no more or no less than any other subjective opinion.  Why cant we just be happy with that?

Avole thanks for the 2 lines of description - that has changed a lot for me thanks 

Hi,

No one is disputing anyone else's subjective experience. What is being questioned is, whether the change you hear, exists.

Science proves it does not. Some people's experience also states it does not. Your subjective experience is that a change does exist.

Any testing completed previously will have been conducted under the correct conditions. You have to accept that.

On the room equalisation aspect. You are stating that your modifications to the room and additional equipment to cater for the measured deficiencies results in a near perfect room condition, or best that it can be.

You then make a change to a cable, and listen, and hear a difference.

Is the change you hear, real or expectation bias?

Regards,

Shadders.

Shadders we argued year or so ago when you wouldnt have it that optimisations to a computer would make it sound better. One i would have mentioned is a linear power supply to power it.
I don't see how anyone can prove that with measurements as the output via usb is digital
but ask innuos zenith owners what they think in terms of sq? Clear answer to that one

 

[shadders]

Shadders you are happy to accept my subjective view then what was the point of the last 5 pages except for me to be sarcastic, deliberately antagonistic to see who will trigger and Chebby wins that one. I thought he might be back for a second go I still think he was out of line complaining about my grammar - I am trying to keep up with this and work - seeing as your waiting for my responses I am not doing too bad. And I was trying to make it funny at the same time for those who are not wound so tight that they squeek when they walk. Anyway

As I have been trying to point out and I think crossed wire with IMark - measuring the room is not related to cables. But science doesnt stop at the speaker - so if your not using science all the way to your ear any opinion formed is still purely subjective and therefore worth no more or no less than any other subjective opinion. Why cant we just be happy with that?

Avole thanks for the 2 lines of description - that has changed a lot for me thanks

Hi,

No one is disputing anyone else's subjective experience. What is being questioned is, whether the change you hear, exists.

Science proves it does not. Some people's experience also states it does not. Your subjective experience is that a change does exist.

Any testing completed previously will have been conducted under the correct conditions. You have to accept that.

On the room equalisation aspect. You are stating that your modifications to the room and additional equipment to cater for the measured deficiencies results in a near perfect room condition, or best that it can be.

You then make a change to a cable, and listen, and hear a difference.

Is the change you hear, real or expectation bias?

Regards,

Shadders.

Shadders we argued year or so ago when you wouldnt have it that optimisations to a computer would make it sound better. One i would have mentioned is a linear power supply to power it. I don't see how anyone can prove that with measurements as the output via usb is digital but ask innuos zenith owners what they think in terms of sq? Clear answer to that one

Hi,

I am not sure that was me regarding the PC power supply and optimisation. What I am aware of is that a USB connection can cause excessive jitter due to noise from the PC, and the use of galvanic isolation reduces this considerably. As such, in this thread, I did state that the Isolator may provide benefits.

A linear power supply may be of benefit, but maybe the noise comes from the PC components?

Measurements of jitter has shown that using galvanic isolation reduces the jitter error.

Regards,

Shadders.