Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

[Frank Harvey]

That "certain something" is called distortion.

Chris

Certainly by the anti vinyl brigade

 

[chebby]

That "certain something" is called distortion.

Chris

Certainly by the anti vinyl brigade

I hadn't realised they'd become a military organisation.

 

[Covenanter]

That "certain something" is called distortion.

Chris

Certainly by the anti vinyl brigade

I'm not anti-vinyl anymore than I'm anti-wind-up-gramophones. They are just technologies long past their sell-by dates. The current vogue for vinyl amongst hi-fi fans is a fashion statement, nothing more and nothing less.

Now there's nothing wrong with this. Some people love vintage cars and strangely you hear people like the sainted JC saying that they are "more involving" than modern cars. Of course they are less comfortable, less convenient, less economical, etc than modern cars but the enthusiast finds them "more involving" and that's all that matters. I'm sure you find vinyl "more involving" but please let's not pretend that it isn't more distorted. For heaven's sake you have to deliberately distort it (using the RIAA curves) to make it work at all!

I used to love my vinyl in the 1970s. But that was then and I have moved on and a long time ago.

Chris

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'm not anti-vinyl anymore than I'm anti-wind-up-gramophones. They are just technologies long past their sell-by dates. The current vogue for vinyl amongst hi-fi fans is a fashion statement, nothing more and nothing less.

No doubt you could compile one huge list of processes or products whose technology would be classed as ancient, but nothing superior has ever come along to revolutionise those products or processes, so they remain as vintage technology, perfected over time.

I will agree that some will see vinyl as a fashion statement, but there are far more who just plain prefer the sound of it, and find digital formats sounding false or unnatural, amongst other things. I think vinyl's cost prohibits it from being a mass fashion movement.

'm sure you find vinyl "more involving" but please let's not pretend that it isn't more distorted. For heaven's sake you have to deliberately distort it (using the RIAA curves) to make it work at all!

No one is disputing the distortion claims (although maybe the extent of those claims by some), but given the process of getting realistic sounding active and passive musical instruments from a slightly wobbly groove, you can't help but be awestruck by such an ancient, distorted format (that is set to far outlive every other format that has been introduced bar downloads, which is quite possibly the only format - if you can call it a format - that will survive it).

Rega RP6 sales are soaring among our regulars who are hearing just how good vinyl can sound for not vast amounts of money, and they've not even come in for a booked demo - they've popped in while we've had various bits and bobs playing in the demo room, and have been hugely impressed by what they have heard, especially when comparing like for like with digital formats.

I think some 'vinyl days' are called for...

 

[tonky]

About 1988

I used to have a rega planar 2 ortofon vms 20e cartridge (or M20FL possibly). Mission cyrus 2 and some JBL 20Ti speakers.

With great excitement a Marantz CD 65 11 special edition was bought! The digital age beckoned!.

I had a CD of frankie goes to hollywood (pleasure dome etc) and a vinyl copy too.

Played them side by side (different inputs - swapped the inputs too) - switched from one to the other.

I was stunned at how little difference there was. I had a preference for the rega - it was clear spacious and detailed (nothing added) as was the Marantz.

The rega definitely had a more natural and dynamic sound.

All this is subjective but I know what I heard. I so wanted the Marantz to be superior - but it wasn't.

Anyway that's my 6 pennyworth - none of it measurable - but all of it there to be heard

tonky

 

[alchemist 1]

I'm not anti-vinyl anymore than I'm anti-wind-up-gramophones. They are just technologies long past their sell-by dates. The current vogue for vinyl amongst hi-fi fans is a fashion statement, nothing more and nothing less.

No doubt you could compile one huge list of processes or products whose technology would be classed as ancient, but nothing superior has ever come along to revolutionise those products or processes, so they remain as vintage technology, perfected over time.

I will agree that some will see vinyl as a fashion statement, but there are far more who just plain prefer the sound of it, and find digital formats sounding false or unnatural, amongst other things. I think vinyl's cost prohibits it from being a mass fashion movement.

'm sure you find vinyl "more involving" but please let's not pretend that it isn't more distorted. For heaven's sake you have to deliberately distort it (using the RIAA curves) to make it work at all!

No one is disputing the distortion claims (although maybe the extent of those claims by some), but given the process of getting realistic sounding active and passive musical instruments from a slightly wobbly groove, you can't help but be awestruck by such an ancient, distorted format (that is set to far outlive every other format that has been introduced bar downloads, which is quite possibly the only format - if you can call it a format - that will survive it).

Rega RP6 sales are soaring among our regulars who are hearing just how good vinyl can sound for not vast amounts of money, and they've not even come in for a booked demo - they've popped in while we've had various bits and bobs playing in the demo room, and have been hugely impressed by what they have heard, especially when comparing like for like with digital formats.

I think some 'vinyl days' are called for...

Vinyl fetish day, with rubber turntable mats ...........:shifty:

 

[davedotco]

My mind is open to the possibility that vinyl might sound wonderful, but I'm struggling to understand why it should, and you guys aren't really helping much! :?

I agree - it shouldn't. I'd love to know why vinyl sounds as good as it does, and why it sounds more natural than CD. We know that better engineered decks produce more accurate results (and a good deck can only produce what is on that record), but this still doesn't explain the differences we hear between the two formats.

I just want to know what the differences are. "More natural" is, I don't doubt, an honest attempt to describe them, but it's not especially helpful. And then I read this ...

I maintain that if the record player is good enough the difference between CD and vinyl is minimal.

Of course the discs need to be identical in production terms, I have heard some examples, mainly DG, played in sync and level matched that are virtually impossible to tell apart even with instantaneous switching.

... and I wonder if there's any difference at all.

I was hoping you guys might help, but I guess I just need to find out for myself.

Totally understand. It's always best to try things for yourself anyway. I don't know the extent of Dave's experience with turntables, and I'm not calling him into question in any way, but I can't imagine not being able to tell vinyl/CD apart, regardless of the price point involved, as it comes down to that certain something that vinyl has.

OK, let's get this straight...... :read:

I have said, a fair number of times in fact, that the best reproduction I have ever heard in a home system has come from a vinyl front end, I have also said that vinyl is inherently more involving, more 'musical' than anything digital. I stand by that.

As I said above, I have also carried out some CD vs vinyl comparisons, using equipment of the highest quality and found precious liitle difference in the sound quality, all the nice 'body' and 'warmth' that vinyl lovers talk about simply does not exist at this level, anymore than the 'pops and crackles' that plague vinyl players of lesser quality exist.

Close though this is in these kinds of comparisons, living with vinyl playback every day, of this standard anyway, confirms it's superiority to me, I just wish I could afford it......

I undestand that it is currently 'cool' to be into vinyl, but I have said, and many times, that the sound that they are into is not the sound of vinyl, but the sound of cheap record players, and Rega or a Gyrodeck or similar really does not do it for me. Given that choice I would rather listen to Mrs DDC's iPad and Spotify.

 

[matt49]

As I said above, I have also carried out some CD vs vinyl comparisons, using equipment of the highest quality and found precious liitle difference in the sound quality ...

Close though this is in these kinds of comparisons, living with vinyl playback every day, of this standard anyway, confirms it's superiority to me.

But can you tell me in what respects vinyl is superior (without using the words 'natural', 'involving', or 'musical')?

I'm not trying to be a PITA (though I appreciate it might seem otherwise); I'd just like to have a sense of what to listen for.

 

[davedotco]

As I said above, I have also carried out some CD vs vinyl comparisons, using equipment of the highest quality and found precious liitle difference in the sound quality ...

Close though this is in these kinds of comparisons, living with vinyl playback every day, of this standard anyway, confirms it's superiority to me.

But can you tell me in what respects vinyl is superior (without using the words 'natural', 'involving', or 'musical')?

I'm not trying to be a PITA (though I appreciate it might seem otherwise); I'd just like to have a sense of what to listen for.

Afternoon matt,

Very difficult, I am not sure that the words exist. Top end vinyl playback conveys a sense of reality that digital playback seems to struggle with, it is much easier to believe that the sounds you are hearing are produced by real live people playing together (often not the case I know) rather than just the sound emerging from a black background.

I am quite sure that this is as much a psycological reaction than anything else, but if top end vinyl reproduction does it for you, you will, indisputably, know it when you hear it.

 

[CnoEvil]

Very difficult, I am not sure that the words exist. Top end vinyl playback conveys a sense of reality that digital playback seems to struggle with, it is much easier to believe that the sounds you are hearing are produced by real live people playing together (often not the case I know) rather than just the sound emerging from a black background.

I am quite sure that this is as much a psycological reaction than anything else, but if top end vinyl reproduction does it for you, you will, indisputably, know it when you hear it.

Dave, have you ever heard a Linn Klimax DS/1 (outside of a Linn system) or a fairly expensive Audio Note system, using one of their digital sources (with NOS Dac)?.....very nice, especially the latter.

 

[matt49]

Very difficult, I am not sure that the words exist. Top end vinyl playback conveys a sense of reality that digital playback seems to struggle with, it is much easier to believe that the sounds you are hearing are produced by real live people playing together (often not the case I know) rather than just the sound emerging from a black background.

Cheers, Dave.

I should have included 'real' in my list of proscribed words.

I am quite sure that this is as much a psycological reaction than anything else, but if top end vinyl reproduction does it for you, you will, indisputably,know it when you hear it.

I'm not being flippant, but by this stage you'll have spent so much money on your TT, that you'll be gutted if you don't 'hear it'.

Anyway, my mind is still open on this (and I have a fair bit of vinyl in good nick). Once I get back on the demo trail, probably after Xmas, I'll see if I can listen to a couple of decent (in your terms) TTs.

Dave, have you ever heard a Linn Klimax DS/1 (outside of a Linn system) or a fairly expensive Audio Note system, using one of their digital sources (with NOS Dac)?.....very nice, especially the latter.

I should also get a demo of a top Linn DS through a Dev, though it would have to be outrageously good to merit replacing the digital system I'm running ATM.

 

[CnoEvil]

I should also get a demo of a top Linn DS through a Dev, though it would have to be outrageously good to merit replacing the digital system I'm running ATM.

The KDS/1 is very (very), possibly outrageously, good.....but with a price tag to match. IMO. It is the most "analogue" sounding of the DSsss.

 

[the record spot]

Seeing as vinyl was where I started out years ago and have heard several decks across a good few price ranges over the years, heck even my nickname is record_spot, I'm nevertheless surprised at some of the comments on here. There seems to be this notion that CD, or other digital, can't deliver the same atmospherics, emotion, or window into the soul of the music. Seeing as I listen to my music solely on CD or occasionally Spotify, and it's a move I'm happy to have made, I'm happy to say I've left that kind of mindset behind. I'm amazed this kind of stuff still gets spouted.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I undestand that it is currently 'cool' to be into vinyl, but I have said, and many times, that the sound that they are into is not the sound of vinyl, but the sound of cheap record players, and Rega or a Gyrodeck or similar really does not do it for me. Given that choice I would rather listen to Mrs DDC's iPad and Spotify.

The likes of the Gyro SE and RP6 'does it' for quite a lot of people. Even the RP3 sounds fantastic, and pretty much redefines how good vinyl can sound with a £500 deck.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Seeing as vinyl was where I started out years ago and have heard several decks across a good few price ranges over the years, heck even my nickname is record_spot, I'm nevertheless surprised at some of the comments on here. There seems to be this notion that CD, or other digital, can't deliver the same atmospherics, emotion, or window into the soul of the music. Seeing as I listen to my music solely on CD or occasionally Spotify, and it's a move I'm happy to have made, I'm happy to say I've left that kind of mindset behind. I'm amazed this kind of stuff still gets spouted.

Maybe they're trying to describe what they hear, but can't find the words to do so. This thread and some of its replies is a case in point.

I've heard a few 24/96 masters recently, and while some are good, some just sound plain dull, flat, or lifeless. For whatever reason, you can pop on a record and pretty much guarantee a more agreeable sound. I'll be hearing a lot more vinyl over the next few months, so I'll make a point of comparing a few familiar albums on both formats and posting up my findings.the one that always stuck out in my mind (that I have mentioned before) was Tears For Fears' Seeds Of Love. Having been used to it on CD, I picked up a used vinyl copy - which in my opinion sounded like a totally different album, and made the CD sound flat and compressed.

Some people will find solace in a silent background, but if we all listen to the same piece of music, we won't all hear the same thing. Some may hear something in the vinyl replay that others do not, some won't hear anything special, and some will just be listening to the supposed 'negatives'.

What I have highlighted in bold will no doubt be taken the wrong way by some, but sometimes there's no other way to get a point across.

 

[alienmango]

I like vinyl, my only gripe is that I can only listen so loud before the bass makes the needle wobble in a feedback loop until the sound just becomes a massive drone....

I personally like the crackles and whatnot, each to their own though, I'd rather listen to dance music through digital though, the bass feels somehow more precise and machine-like.

 

[davedotco]

Very difficult, I am not sure that the words exist. Top end vinyl playback conveys a sense of reality that digital playback seems to struggle with, it is much easier to believe that the sounds you are hearing are produced by real live people playing together (often not the case I know) rather than just the sound emerging from a black background.

Cheers, Dave.

I should have included 'real' in my list of proscribed words.

I am quite sure that this is as much a psycological reaction than anything else, but if top end vinyl reproduction does it for you, you will, indisputably,know it when you hear it.

I'm not being flippant, but by this stage you'll have spent so much money on your TT, that you'll be gutted if you don't 'hear it'.

Anyway, my mind is still open on this (and I have a fair bit of vinyl in good nick). Once I get back on the demo trail, probably after Xmas, I'll see if I can listen to a couple of decent (in your terms) TTs.

Dave, have you ever heard a Linn Klimax DS/1 (outside of a Linn system) or a fairly expensive Audio Note system, using one of their digital sources (with NOS Dac)?.....very nice, especially the latter.

I should also get a demo of a top Linn DS through a Dev, though it would have to be outrageously good to merit replacing the digital system I'm running ATM.

@Matt,

Back in the day I used to be able to back up my opinions by demonstration, that was how we worked as a dealer, at the end of the day words are just that, a convincing demonstration something else entirely.

So, not having a £10k plus vinyl front end to hand, I shall have to attempt some kind of allegory, something different that illustrates the point that you can actually hear, so let's see what can be done.

You might recall a week or two back we were talking about different 'versions' of Dave Brubeck's Take Five.

So, find the album on Spotify, specifically the 'Legacy Edition'. Play the first minute or so of Take Five, track 3 on disk 1. This is the classic studio version recorded in '59. Then play the version track 8 disk 2, recorded live a couple or three years later, repeat if you need too.

The recording on disc 1 is the cool, rather staid studio version, the recording on disk 2, despite it's obvious flaws is alive and vibrant, use whatever words you like, but the difference is really quite obvious. This, to me, is analogous to the difference between the best vinyl and the rest, digital or analog. Try it and see.

BTW. Most of the experiences I describe, particularly the direct vinyl/digital comparisons, were not done on my system, my own player good though it was, was not quite that good.

@Cno.

No. My interation with 'serious' hi-fi kit came to an end about 10 years ago so I have not heard the items you mentioned though I am familier with ANJ product from the 90's.

If I gave the impression from my rants that I consider vinyl to be unsurpassable by digital them I have expressed mysef poorly. The very best systems I have ever heard have been vinyl, true enough, but as i also explained the difference between top end vinyl and digital is, to my ears, miniscule.

I have no doubt that the players you mention are exellent, quite possibly better than I have heard to date, but I have not heard them in the right context which makes forming a view difficult. I am very varied in the kind of equipment I like, my primary system is based around a valve amplifier and ribbon hybrid speakers yet uses a digital front end, contrast that to my current system, a pair of 'desktop' actives playing, mostly, Spotify and you see what I mean.

Frankly I find it easier to say what I don't like rather than what I do, cheap record players and big boomy budget speakers coming top of that particular list, I know others see things differently but these are my views and I stand by them.

 

[Bathie1]

I have been a committed vinyl addict for years and have spent a fortune on my system. If you get a chance listen to the new Linn kandid cartridge on a fully loaded Linn LP 12 and you will be blown away. Compare it to any CD player you care to mention ( I have a Linn CD 12 ) and there is no contest. Linn recognise that CD is soon to be dead in so far as sound quality is concerned as the technology cannot be taken further and for that reason stopped making CD players a couple of years ago.No, my system is not all Linn. Four Naim 500's and Naim 552 drive my Linn active speakers.

Since buying the Kandid cartridge I have hardly played a cd . I no longer purchase cd's unless vinyl has not been issued. The information on vinyl is astounding and hearing is believing especially after a record has been properly cleaned with a dedicated machine.

 

[CnoEvil]

I have been a committed vinyl addict for years and have spent a fortune on my system. If you get a chance listen to the new Linn kandid cartridge on a fully loaded Linn LP 12 and you will be blown away. Compare it to any CD player you care to mention ( I have a Linn CD 12 ) and there is no contest. Linn recognise that CD is soon to be dead in so far as sound quality is concerned as the technology cannot be taken further and for that reason stopped making CD players a couple of years ago.No, my system is not all Linn. Four Naim 500's and Naim 552 drive my Linn active speakers.

Since buying the Kandid cartridge I have hardly played a cd . I no longer purchase cd's unless vinyl has not been issued. The information on vinyl is astounding and hearing is believing especially after a record has been properly cleaned with a dedicated machine.

Have you heard a Linn Klimax DS/1?

 

[manicm]

.the one that always stuck out in my mind (that I have mentioned before) was Tears For Fears' Seeds Of Love. Having been used to it on CD, I picked up a used vinyl copy - which in my opinion sounded like a totally different album, and made the CD sound flat and compressed.

Astonishing you mention that, and I agree! When I was 17 I must have listened to Seeds Of Love a million times. I first had it on cassette, then LP, then CD, and I absolutely agree - as far as memory serves the vinyl sounded best!

And hand on heart, Dark Side Of The Moon still sounds best on vinyl. After CD I've never been a vinyl zealot, but I have to agree that on some albums something's 'just there' that isn't on CD or digital.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Despite owning a couple of Boards Of Canada albums for well over 10 years, I finally got to hear them for the first time the other day (at our annual open day), and once again, I'd rather listen to BOC on vinyl. Glad I bought two copies of each of the reissues now