Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

[Thompsonuxb]

I think many would be surprised at the lack of background noise on decks like the Rega RP3 and RP6 - great sounding decks, and not stupidly expensive either.

Agree the RP6 is a fnatastic deck for the money, yes there are better TTs but I am still shocked it how good 95% of my vinyl collection sounds, sounding much nicer to my ears than CD. What Noise Floor? Crackles & Pops? Hum? Give me Vinyl over CD any day for pure listening pleasure!

I hear what you guys are saying - I'm not saying the sound from a turntable cannot be preferd to digital sources what I'm saying is there is a 'sound' that comes from vinyl regardless of the cost of the tt. Back in the day many an hour was wasted trying to earth your TT to reduce the hums and hisses, todays tech would have resolved that issue.Thats not the sound I'm talking about.

its the sound of vinyl.

you probably know the sound I'm talking about the sound of the stylus running along the tracks. its been replicated on CD by some artist, after the needle dropping into the track and the snap crackle pop before the music starts. The better your equ, the more audible it is. (especially if your speakers have good low frequency detail)

Its that sound that distinguishes vinyl from digital - digital is silent in between sounds, vinyl has the 'sound' like drummermans post eludes to, it joins the music - to some making it a whole..... the silence of cd to some making it clinical.

not sure if this is reading the way it sounds to me but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

end of the day its about preference.

 

[fr0g]

And at the end of the day you can transfer any vinyl recording to CD, and if you do it right it will sound exactly the same, down to the characteristics the deck gives...

Which tells you something about any silly imagined "advantages" vinyl has.

Which is not to dismiss vinyl. It has it's place. It's fun and engrossing...but as a medium...ancient tech.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

And at the end of the day you can transfer any vinyl recording to CD, and if you do it right it will sound exactly the same, down to the characteristics the deck gives...

Which tells you something about any silly imagined "advantages" vinyl has.

Which is not to dismiss vinyl. It has it's place. It's fun and engrossing...but as a medium...ancient tech.

Actually better if you increase the equ levels above the original recording.....

 

[Frank Harvey]

I know real hi-end players are stupidly expensive and 'elitest' but until you have spent some time with one, you really have no idea what good vinyl sounds like, and trust me, it does not sound anything like what you think it does.

You're talking to me like I've never heard anything above an RP6...

 

[davedotco]

If you find that surprising you should actually hear what a player like an SME20A/Red Signature/Arc Phono 2 does with surface noise.

I know real hi-end players are stupidly expensive and 'elitist' but until you have spent some time with one, you really have no idea what good vinyl sounds like, and trust me, it does not sound anything like what you think it does.

Dave, you almost had me interested there. I was thinking of arranging a demo of a high-end TT. But then I went back and read the bit in bold. How much time would that be exactly?

Also, could you perhaps elucidate the following? It sounds perilously like you're saying there's something mysterious and indefinable about the "music" from a high-end TT. Could you say what it is?

But here is the rub, the big thing that you are rarely told, a better digital playback system does not, in the main, increase your appreciation of the music. Sure, if you analyse it certain aspects of the sound is improved, better definition, more separation etc, etc, but does it get you closer too the music? Mostly no, it does not.

This is most definitely not the case with vinyl, a better player simply gets you closer to the music, I'm not talking about the budget and mid priced players that dominate on this forum but really good players, the ones that reduce noise to irrelevance, produce all the detail, clarity and dynamic range of the best digital playback then produce the performance in a musically coherent and meaningful manner that digital playback can still not match.

Matt, the time required to hear what I truly fine player can do in minimal, a few minutes at most. What really does take the time is to play through a selection of recordings to find out what the player is really doing and to discover just how good it can be, this is almost never ending, the way such a player can unravel a complex classical recording is a continuing delight.

The problem though is the cost, I am talking about players that cost more than your current system, perhaps by a substantial margin. I considered my own player (turntable/arm /cartridge/phono stage) to be pretty much entry level for the class of players under discussion here and even in the late 90's when I assembled this system, we were talking about a 5 figure sum.

 

[matt49]

Matt, the time required to hear what I truly fine player can do in minimal, a few minutes at most. What really does take the time is to play through a selection of recordings to find out what the player is really doing and to discover just how good it can be, this is almost never ending, the way such a player can unravel a complex classical recording is a continuing delight.

The problem though is the cost, I am talking about players that cost more than your current system, perhaps by a substantial margin. I considered my own player (turntable/arm /cartridge/phono stage) to be pretty much entry level for the class of players under discussion here and even in the late 90's when I assembled this system, we were talking about a 5 figure sum.

OK, "unravel" makes a bit more sense. As you know, I think my system does a pretty good job of that already. But I'd be intrigued to hear what a really good TT could bring to the party. I think when I've got some spare time I might make a date at KJW1 to listen to an SME or Clearaudio. Just for fun.

 

[CnoEvil]

I think when I've got some spare time I might make a date at KJW1 to listen to an SME or Clearaudio. Just for fun.

You need to keep repeating that, over and over again, especially during the dem. :twisted:

 

[davedotco]

I know real hi-end players are stupidly expensive and 'elitest' but until you have spent some time with one, you really have no idea what good vinyl sounds like, and trust me, it does not sound anything like what you think it does.

You're talking to me like I've never heard anything above an RP6...

I have no idea what you have or have not heard, I can only go on what you say.

 

[davedotco]

Also, could you perhaps elucidate the following? It sounds perilously like you're saying there's something mysterious and indefinable about the "music" from a high-end TT. Could you say what it is?

Didn't really answer this first time around but here goes.

You recall that we have spoken before about amplifiers and how a small handful seem to transcend all the usual criteria and, quite simply, make everything sound better, I'm talking about components such as my favourite late 80's ARC, the better Electrocompaniets, Sugden Masterclasse and of course the D-Premier.

Well some record players do pretty much the same thing, firstly their best trick is that they do not sound remotely like vinyl, the sound quality that somehow endears itself to the users of lesser players is simply not there, in that sense it sounds like the best digital.

But something else happens too, the shear transparancy, the ability to untangle complex music, is like nothing else I have ever heard. I know that some distortions and other factors such as frequency response are inferior but this is not remotely evident when you listen, the communication is what matters and it is truly outstanding.

Players of this stature are pretty rare, I do not even know if the Goldmund, Oracle and top end VPI and similar players are even available these days but even something more mainstream such as a SME30A/Red K Signature is not that easy to find.

I am told that the top end Clearaudio with the Souther derived arm is pretty special but I have never heard it so can not comment, be nice to give it a go though.

 

[chebby]

Dave, only a few people might ever get to hear such a set-up at a show.

I did once at an Absolute Sounds demo run by Ricardo Franassovici in Brighton in the early 1980s*. However, that system (Oracle, Black Widow, Koetsu, AR, Krell, Etude) cost about £30K in 1980s money!

(Today the source alone might cost more than that.)

So unless you are selling to Russian oligarchs (or the top echelon of Premier League footballers) the whole point of what such kit can do is moot.

Even if I were suddenly rich enough to easily afford buy such a system, then there is the equally vivid memory of the overwhelming ugliness, bulk and firehose sized cabling that would destroy any room it were placed in and mark one down as a 'nutter' by friends and family.

I am not saying you are wrong. (I have heard it for myself.) But the capabilities of the turntables you describe, are only relevant to a tiny fraction of a percent of a percent of the population.

The people here enjoying RP3s, RP6s or other budget - mid-priced TTs (as I did for such a long time) shouldn't have their systems 'poo-poo'ed' just because you once heard, or sold, or owned something capable of transcending the norm.

After the 'revelation' of that Absolute Sounds system I didn't go home and despair of my Planar 3 + RB300. (Far from it.)

It was like going to see a great film at a really good cinema with an amazing sound system. I would still enjoy a Blu-ray at home.

We treated ourselves once, when on holiday in Dartmoor a few years ago, to a lunch at Gidleigh Park Hotel (two Michelin stars) but the experience - although sublime - didn't diminish or put us off home cooking or an occasional trip to the local fish & chip shop 🙂

*The first and last hi-fi show we ever went to. It was a hot sunny day in Brighton and the hotel was grim and filled with only much older men (my wife and I were only about 20 years old then) playing 'demo-record' music like Steely Dan and Phil Collins. We left after an hour and spent the day on the beach instead.

 

[DIB]

So you managed to last an hour of Phil Collins? That's pretty good going .

.

 

[MakkaPakka]

Given how few of the turntables sold in the last 50 years would have cost more than about £150 (adjusted for the time) I'm curious as to who was actually manufacturing records that necessitate or warrant a deck that costs several thousand pounds?

I could spend five grand on a record player but I strongly suspect I'd be very disappointed because I wouldn't find anything to play on it that would do it justice.

 

[davedotco]

Dave, only a few people might ever get to hear such a set-up at a show.

I did once at an Absolute Sounds demo run by Ricardo Franassovici in Brighton in the early 1980s*. However, that system (Oracle, Black Widow, Koetsu, AR, Krell, Etude) cost about £30K in 1980s money!

(Today the source alone might cost more than that.)

So unless you are selling to Russian oligarchs (or the top echelon of Premier League footballers) the whole point of what such kit can do is moot.

Even if I were suddenly rich enough to easily afford buy such a system, then there is the equally vivid memory of the overwhelming ugliness, bulk and firehose sized cabling that would destroy any room it were placed in and mark one down as a 'nutter' by friends and family.

I am not saying you are wrong. (I have heard it for myself.) But the capabilities of the turntables you describe, are only relevant to a tiny fraction of a percent of a percent of the population.

The people here enjoying RP3s, RP6s or other budget - mid-priced TTs (as I did for such a long time) shouldn't have their systems 'poo-poo'ed' just because you once heard, or sold, or owned something capable of transcending the norm.

After the 'revelation' of that Absolute Sounds system I didn't go home and despair of my Planar 3 + RB300. (Far from it.)

It was like going to see a great film at a really good cinema with an amazing sound system. I would still enjoy a Blu-ray at home.

We treated ourselves once, when on holiday in Dartmoor a few years ago, to a lunch at Gidleigh Park Hotel (two Michelin stars) but the experience - although sublime - didn't diminish or put us off home cooking or an occasional trip to the local fish & chip shop 🙂

*The first and last hi-fi show we ever went to. It was a hot sunny day in Brighton and the hotel was grim and filled with only much older men (my wife and I were only about 20 years old then) playing 'demo-record' music like Steely Dan and Phil Collins. We left after an hour and spent the day on the beach instead.

You are quite correct in what you are saying and in terms of ownership I agree entirely.

My own quite modest, by these standards, SME20A/Red Signature setup had to be sold once I ceased being involved professionally, the investment and the running costs, £2k every couple of years for a new stylus/cartridge, was beyond my means.

But you are slightly missing the point here, the unaffordable, to most of us, players under discussion here are capable of setting a standard by which other players can be evaluated and perhaps more to the point, show what vinyl is capable of. I have heard a lot of systems over the years and pretty much all of the ones that have left me with my jaw on the floor have been vinyl based.

Of course this does not mean that people with more normal players do not enjoy the vinyl, I'm sure they do, but this discussion is really not about that, it is about the qualities of vinyl reproduction, that at the highest levels, still sets the standard in reproducing music in the home.

 

[BigH]

Given how few of the turntables sold in the last 50 years would have cost more than about £150 (adjusted for the time) I'm curious as to who was actually manufacturing records that necessitate or warrant a deck that costs several thousand pounds?

I could spend five grand on a record player but I strongly suspect I'd be very disappointed because I wouldn't find anything to play on it that would do it justice.

Try these: http://www.analogueproductions.com/index.cfm?do=search&category=21

 

[Tear Drop]

£2k every couple of years for a new stylus/cartridge, was beyond my means.

:?

Re-tipping/overhaul of a cart shouldn't cost anywhere near that. Buying an entirely new cartridge every couple of years would be madness.

 

[davedotco]

Given how few of the turntables sold in the last 50 years would have cost more than about £150 (adjusted for the time) I'm curious as to who was actually manufacturing records that necessitate or warrant a deck that costs several thousand pounds?

I could spend five grand on a record player but I strongly suspect I'd be very disappointed because I wouldn't find anything to play on it that would do it justice.

Try these: http://www.analogueproductions.com/index.cfm?do=search&category=21

I have always found that a genuinely good player makes the most of almost any recordings. Sure there are some records that are so poor that they sound awful on anything, but any compedent recording, properly pressed and in reasonable condition sound pretty damn good.

This is slightly at odds with what happens at the budget end of the market where an upgrade can quite often show up limitations in the vinyl being played but top players seem to deal with with things differently.

Surface noise is an obvious point of comparison, it may seem to get worse with some upgrades but then, when you hit a certain standard of mechanical integrity, a well chosen and properly set up player deals with it in such a way that it becomes irrelevent. It is still there of course, but somehow separared and 'placed at a distance', such that is no longer a part of the music being played.

A similar thing happens with 'everyday' recordings, many that you may have considered quite average take on a new life on such players.

 

[davedotco]

£2k every couple of years for a new stylus/cartridge, was beyond my means.

:?

Re-tipping/overhaul of a cart shouldn't cost anywhere near that. Buying an entirely new cartridge every couple of years would be madness.

My player (used for pleasure and business) did get a lot of use, so 2 years was about right.

It was possible to return the cartridge to Koetsu for rebuilding but the cost and the time and hassle involved made it a pretty unatractive proposition.

The idea of letting anyone other than the original manufacturer rebuild a multi-thousand pound cartridge is where the real madness lies.

 

[andyjm]

Looked at from a technical perspective in comparison to a CD, an LP is a disaster. In every measure (except upper frequency bound*) an LP is significantly inferior - an inferiority that increases each time the LP is played as the grooves wear / melt away.

Strangely, the distortions that the mechanical recording / playback process introduce seem to pleasing to listen to - I don't pretend to know why.

So, I will grant that many people like the sound of LPs, but that's not because they are more faithful to the original, it is that they distort / mask the original in a way which humans perceive in a positive way.

* A new LP at 33 1/3 can get up to 50 or 60KHz, this soon drops off after it is played a few times.

 

[davedotco]

Looked at from a technical perspective in comparison to a CD, an LP is a disaster. In every measure (except upper frequency bound*) an LP is significantly inferior - an inferiority that increases each time the LP is played as the grooves wear / melt away.

Strangely, the distortions that the mechanical recording / playback process introduce seem to pleasing to listen to - I don't pretend to know why.

So, I will grant that many people like the sound of LPs, but that's not because they are more faithful to the original, it is that they distort / mask the original in a way which humans perceive in a positive way.

* A new LP at 33 1/3 can get up to 50 or 60KHz, this soon drops off after it is played a few times.

I remenber reading an article that took a look at this.

The authors view was that when playing a record energy was transmitted into the vinyl from the stylus in much the same way as it is transmitted into the air as 'needle talk'. This energy propagates through the vinyl record until it meets some kind of discontinuety at which point it is reflected back to the point of origin and picked up by the stylus.

He postulates that this is a kind of low level feedback that has an effect on the sound similar to that of a 'reverb' used in a studio. Anyone who has heard a voice (say) recorded dry, then 'enhanced' with a little reverb will know what I mean. The result is that the reflections in the vinyl add to the original recording in such a way as to make it sound a bit warmer, more full bodied and generally 'nicer'.

Now, I have no idea as to whether this comes even close to reality or is total BS, but it does tie in with my own obsevations that the better and more stable the player, the less noticeable these effects become. As I said earlier, really good players sound much closer to CD than you might imagine.

 

[Covenanter]

Looked at from a technical perspective in comparison to a CD, an LP is a disaster. In every measure (except upper frequency bound*) an LP is significantly inferior - an inferiority that increases each time the LP is played as the grooves wear / melt away.

Strangely, the distortions that the mechanical recording / playback process introduce seem to pleasing to listen to - I don't pretend to know why.

So, I will grant that many people like the sound of LPs, but that's not because they are more faithful to the original, it is that they distort / mask the original in a way which humans perceive in a positive way.

* A new LP at 33 1/3 can get up to 50 or 60KHz, this soon drops off after it is played a few times.

Yep.

Chris

 

[manicm]

Which is not to dismiss vinyl. It has it's place. It's fun and engrossing...but as a medium...ancient tech.

Funny, one could say the same about compressed music like MP3s. But shhhhh, don't tell the kids that.

 

[manicm]

I do think there's some snobbery out here. Our old Technics SL-202 direct drive turntable was the dog's proverbial sound-wise. It sounded superb, and was only average-priced for its day. If I had to be brutally honest I haven't bought a digital source/CD player that sounded overall as good. But it had great synergy with the amp that gave up the ghost eventually.

Although Dave does have a point, to an extent - as opposed to CD players and digital sources, I think amplifiers and turntables have never been more expensive today in real terms.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Looked at from a technical perspective in comparison to a CD, an LP is a disaster. In every measure (except upper frequency bound*) an LP is significantly inferior - an inferiority that increases each time the LP is played as the grooves wear / melt away.

Melt away? That's a tad melodramatic. This is where a better turntable comes in. Less record wear.

So, I will grant that many people like the sound of LPs, but that's not because they are more faithful to the original, it is that they distort / mask the original in a way which humans perceive in a positive way.

Whatever the reason is for people peferring vinyl, they prefer it, full stop. The supposed superiority of CD can be pushed until you're blue in the face, but when you sit someone down, play them a track on a CD, then the same track on vinyl, they'll choose what they prefer - and who are any of us to tell them they're wrong?

 

[matt49]

Whatever the reason is for people peferring vinyl, they prefer it, full stop.

I've never been happy with full stops, unless there's a good reason for them. Some people express a preference for vinyl, some prefer digital. It may not be your job to worry about this discrepancy, but I wouldn't be happy until I understood it.

I had a train set when I was a kid. I dusted it off again when I thought my kids were old enough to enjoy it. But they're girls, and they weren't really interested in trains. I still loved it though and found it much more involving than the video games my daughters were playing. I thought the train set was somehow more real. But in reality I was just in love with endlessly fettling the bits of metal and enjoying the fact that this piece of primitive technology somehow worked, against all the odds. All the while the kids were having much more fun on their Nintendos.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'd love to be able to explain it too. The only thing I could think of was that the mechanical aspect of the turntable (arm etc) has some sort of effect on the overall sound. But even if that were true, it doesn't account for the fact that the whole soundstage is more three dimensional, rather than just sounding fairly flat. There's other aspects too, but that's the main one for me.