Vinyl better than digital? This may be why

[fr0g]

Which is not to dismiss vinyl. It has it's place. It's fun and engrossing...but as a medium...ancient tech.

Funny, one could say the same about compressed music like MP3s. But shhhhh, don't tell the kids that.

Well, you could, but then MP3 as we know it now is vastly different to what it was 20 years ago. It has spawned lots of other excellent codecs such as AAC and OGG, FLAC and WMA. And you couldn't tell the difference between them and a CD. The last part can't be said about vinyl.

 

[andyjm]

Looked at from a technical perspective in comparison to a CD, an LP is a disaster. In every measure (except upper frequency bound*) an LP is significantly inferior - an inferiority that increases each time the LP is played as the grooves wear / melt away.

Melt away? That's a tad melodramatic. This is where a better turntable comes in. Less record wear.

During playback, due to friction, the stylus runs at between 300 - 500 degrees F. This is well above the melting point of vinyl. This causes 'micro melting' as it travels along the groove 'smoothing' out the tracks.

Play the LP enough and it will be silent (apart from the dust that is).

 

[davedotco]

I'd love to be able to explain it too. The only thing I could think of was that the mechanical aspect of the turntable (arm etc) has some sort of effect on the overall sound. But even if that were true, it doesn't account for the fact that the whole soundstage is more three dimensional, rather than just sounding fairly flat. There's other aspects too, but that's the main one for me.

I think this is quite important, read my post 8 on the previous page which gives one possible explanation.

There is no doubt in my mind that what most people prefer about the sound of vinyl is not the sound of vinyl at all, it is the sound of, mostly, quite inexpensive record players.

Back when I used to do the dems, many enthusiasts were very surprised by the sound of our top players, some thinking they sounded too much like a CD player, the 'warm', 'musical' quality they knew and loved was gone. Fortunately most of our customers realised pretty quickly that the transparancy and insight was of a different order so we sold plenty of these players.

 

[cheeseboy]

There is no doubt in my mind that what most people prefer about the sound of vinyl is not the sound of vinyl at all, it is the sound of, mostly, quite inexpensive record players.

Back when I used to do the dems, many enthusiasts were very surprised by the sound of our top players, some thinking they sounded too much like a CD player, the 'warm', 'musical' quality they knew and loved was gone. Fortunately most of our customers realised pretty quickly that the transparancy and insight was of a different order so we sold plenty of these players.

funny isn't it, that those that profess to prefer vinyl do so because of one of the things that should detract from prefering it in the first place, Ie the distortion of the analogue. It's kind of an odd irony that people can and do harp on about getting things more transparent, yet in reality prefer the less transparen method.

kind of like when digital recording facilities first came out and all the producers and mixers were like "whoooaaa, this sounds awful, it's too clean" (as in they were getting a truer representation of what it actually sounds like) and then the first thing they did was wap a load of analogue compression on it to make it sound like a analogue desk 😀

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Looked at from a technical perspective in comparison to a CD, an LP is a disaster. In every measure (except upper frequency bound*) an LP is significantly inferior - an inferiority that increases each time the LP is played as the grooves wear / melt away.

Melt away? That's a tad melodramatic. This is where a better turntable comes in. Less record wear.

During playback, due to friction, the stylus runs at between 300 - 500 degrees F. This is well above the melting point of vinyl. This causes 'micro melting' as it travels along the groove 'smoothing' out the tracks.

Play the LP enough and it will be silent (apart from the dust that is).

Something popped into my head that says the figure is around 140°C for a spherical tip but depends on tracking weight and stylus shape. Vinyl melts at 160°C I just read.

 

[davedotco]

There is no doubt in my mind that what most people prefer about the sound of vinyl is not the sound of vinyl at all, it is the sound of, mostly, quite inexpensive record players.

Back when I used to do the dems, many enthusiasts were very surprised by the sound of our top players, some thinking they sounded too much like a CD player, the 'warm', 'musical' quality they knew and loved was gone. Fortunately most of our customers realised pretty quickly that the transparancy and insight was of a different order so we sold plenty of these players.

funny isn't it, that those that profess to prefer vinyl do so because of one of the things that should detract from prefering it in the first place, Ie the distortion of the analogue. It's kind of an odd irony that people can and do harp on about getting things more transparent, yet in reality prefer the less transparen method.

kind of like when digital recording facilities first came out and all the producers and mixers were like "whoooaaa, this sounds awful, it's too clean" (as in they were getting a truer representation of what it actually sounds like) and then the first thing they did was wap a load of analogue compression on it to make it sound like a analogue desk 😀

While the above is pretty true, it is I think just a little harsh.

The modern recording process does not, in the main, capture music in a realistic manner. I'm not talking about overprocessed rubbish but what is generally considered 'good' practice. Nice acoustics (sometimes anyway), multiple microphones, enhanced physical separation among other factors all combine to produce what we now come to term recorded music.

It can on occasion be pretty convincing, but mostly even very good (studio) recordings are 'unnatural' in that they are 'better' in terms of soundstage, separation, detail resolution etc, etc. Again, I am fairly convinced that this causes us to listen in an entrely different manner so perhaps a playback system that actually limits the overall 'standard' of the playback, makes it somehow easier to listen to.

Edit for spelling

 

[andyjm]

Looked at from a technical perspective in comparison to a CD, an LP is a disaster. In every measure (except upper frequency bound*) an LP is significantly inferior - an inferiority that increases each time the LP is played as the grooves wear / melt away.

Melt away? That's a tad melodramatic. This is where a better turntable comes in. Less record wear.

During playback, due to friction, the stylus runs at between 300 - 500 degrees F. This is well above the melting point of vinyl. This causes 'micro melting' as it travels along the groove 'smoothing' out the tracks.

Play the LP enough and it will be silent (apart from the dust that is).

Something popped into my head that says the figure is around 140°C for a spherical tip but depends on tracking weight and stylus shape. Vinyl melts at 160°C I just read.

There is little recent analysis on this effect, most dates back to the days when LPs were the only game in town. Have a look at:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=S4nBNZ_EJwwC&pg=PA1032&lpg=PA1032&dq=temperature+of+stylus+record&source=bl&ots=eKRH_zi0EE&sig=_LXi-sVmrbbpmE14adCeHVTjN9Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UiCCUsmCEMfLhAf8z4HQBA&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=temperature%20of%20stylus%20record&f=false

Page 1032 if the link doesn't take you there.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Here's what I'm thinking of:

http://www.vandenhul.com/download/CAwdEAwUUkNHW0I=

About half way down.

 

[Petherick]

Not forgetting the bit on page 3 😉

 

[andyjm]

Not forgetting the bit on page 3 😉

Well, I hope the bit on styli is more reliable than the section on cables - which is either still in Dutch, or complete claptrap.

 

[KWONAD]

:wave: At this moment i listen music from the bit. One world - Dire Straits, Brother in arms. And i love it.

 

[Frank Harvey]

During playback, due to friction, the stylus runs at between 300 - 500 degrees F. This is well above the melting point of vinyl. This causes 'micro melting' as it travels along the groove 'smoothing' out the tracks.

As AL has pointed out, I doubt very much a stylus tip would reach this sort of temperature under any normal use. I do understand what you're saying, but a better turntable will be able to track the groove much better with less friction, and would presumably cause less wear.

Play the LP enough and it will be silent (apart from the dust that is).

I don't know about that. I have my parents original Beatles LPs. They're scratched to buggery due to the amount they played them (on a far from kind turntable, and probably with a worn out needle), and they are far from silent.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'd love to be able to explain it too. The only thing I could think of was that the mechanical aspect of the turntable (arm etc) has some sort of effect on the overall sound. But even if that were true, it doesn't account for the fact that the whole soundstage is more three dimensional, rather than just sounding fairly flat. There's other aspects too, but that's the main one for me.

I think this is quite important, read my post 8 on the previous page which gives one possible explanation.

There is no doubt in my mind that what most people prefer about the sound of vinyl is not the sound of vinyl at all, it is the sound of, mostly, quite inexpensive record players.

Yes and no, I think. I agree that many prefer the warmer, smoother sound of a relatively inexpensive turntable, but there are still other aspects of the sound that differentiates it from CD, and if you compare a more accurate sounding turntable to a CD which will remove that "warmth", there's still quite a difference. It's not a tonal thing, it is something else. I can't even begin to explain it, so I won't 🙂

 

[alchemist 1]

I'd love to be able to explain it too. The only thing I could think of was that the mechanical aspect of the turntable (arm etc) has some sort of effect on the overall sound. But even if that were true, it doesn't account for the fact that the whole soundstage is more three dimensional, rather than just sounding fairly flat. There's other aspects too, but that's the main one for me.

I think this is quite important, read my post 8 on the previous page which gives one possible explanation.

There is no doubt in my mind that what most people prefer about the sound of vinyl is not the sound of vinyl at all, it is the sound of, mostly, quite inexpensive record players.

Yes and no, I think. I agree that many prefer the warmer, smoother sound of a relatively inexpensive turntable, but there are still other aspects of the sound that differentiates it from CD, and if you compare a more accurate sounding turntable to a CD which will remove that "warmth", there's still quite a difference. It's not a tonal thing, it is something else. I can't even begin to explain it, so I won't 🙂

It's soul man,solid soul.................:rofl:

 

[CnoEvil]

It's soul man,solid soul.................:rofl:

Soul is Gold.........said the Alchemist! 8)

 

[stevebrock]

i think a lot of it is the physical aspect of it, the platter spinning? the records itself, the ritual of playing a record!

 

[matt49]

i think a lot of it is the physical aspect of it, the platter spinning? the records itself, the ritual of playing a record!

i.e. not the sound quality.

My mind is open to the possibility that vinyl might sound wonderful, but I'm struggling to understand why it should, and you guys aren't really helping much! :?

 

[stevebrock]

i think a lot of it is the physical aspect of it, the platter spinning? the records itself, the ritual of playing a record!

i.e. not the sound quality.

My mind is open to the possibility that vinyl might sound wonderful, but I'm struggling to understand why it should, and you guys aren't really helping much! :?

Technically CD should sound better, but in reality vinyl just sounds so natural, rich, fluid & involving!

Ive had some vinyl delivered today, just cant wait til later to play it, yes ive got it on CD but its just meh! on CD so looking forward to hearing it on vinyl

 

[manicm]

I've never been happy with full stops, unless there's a good reason for them. Some people express a preference for vinyl, some prefer digital. It may not be your job to worry about this discrepancy, but I wouldn't be happy until I understood it.

I'm a developer, when things don't work I'm interested and want to understand why. When hifi, rips or general audio sound cr*p I don't give a rats. It's no good to me, and I don't give a proverbial.

You really think people who splash out on LP12s and suchlike give a damn about scientific evidence? I wouldn't. And I know the LP12 is mechanically an anachronism, even for a turntable.

To me hifi is an emotional investment, and if it sounds good to you that's all that matters. You're not purchasing a degree in engineering. Right now my dream system would be the Cyrus Lyric, but I'm waiting for a review.

 

[davedotco]

I'd love to be able to explain it too. The only thing I could think of was that the mechanical aspect of the turntable (arm etc) has some sort of effect on the overall sound. But even if that were true, it doesn't account for the fact that the whole soundstage is more three dimensional, rather than just sounding fairly flat. There's other aspects too, but that's the main one for me.

I think this is quite important, read my post 8 on the previous page which gives one possible explanation.

There is no doubt in my mind that what most people prefer about the sound of vinyl is not the sound of vinyl at all, it is the sound of, mostly, quite inexpensive record players.

Yes and no, I think. I agree that many prefer the warmer, smoother sound of a relatively inexpensive turntable, but there are still other aspects of the sound that differentiates it from CD, and if you compare a more accurate sounding turntable to a CD which will remove that "warmth", there's still quite a difference. It's not a tonal thing, it is something else. I can't even begin to explain it, so I won't 🙂

That for me is the crux of the issue. I maintain that if the record player is good enough the difference between CD and vinyl is minimal.

Of course the discs need to be identical in production terms, I have heard some examples, mainly DG, played in sync and level matched that are virtually impossible to tell apart even with instantaneous switching.

The system was good too, no excuses there, the CD player was a two box Wadia, the record player a SME30A/Red K Signature, no added warmth or obvious surface noise to give things away and the difference, even with quite modest recording was always very, very close.

Whether or not the 'magic' of really good vinyl replay remains intact at this level of performance is difficult to call, I have often stated that I feel that top vinyl replay remains the most 'complete' hi-fi experience currently available but I have not lived with equipment of this stature, so not a call I can easily make.

 

[Frank Harvey]

My mind is open to the possibility that vinyl might sound wonderful, but I'm struggling to understand why it should, and you guys aren't really helping much! :?

I agree - it shouldn't. I'd love to know why vinyl sounds as good as it does, and why it sounds more natural than CD. We know that better engineered decks produce more accurate results (and a good deck can only produce what is on that record), but this still doesn't explain the differences we hear between the two formats.

 

[matt49]

My mind is open to the possibility that vinyl might sound wonderful, but I'm struggling to understand why it should, and you guys aren't really helping much! :?

I agree - it shouldn't. I'd love to know why vinyl sounds as good as it does, and why it sounds more natural than CD. We know that better engineered decks produce more accurate results (and a good deck can only produce what is on that record), but this still doesn't explain the differences we hear between the two formats.

I just want to know what the differences are. "More natural" is, I don't doubt, an honest attempt to describe them, but it's not especially helpful. And then I read this ...

I maintain that if the record player is good enough the difference between CD and vinyl is minimal.

Of course the discs need to be identical in production terms, I have heard some examples, mainly DG, played in sync and level matched that are virtually impossible to tell apart even with instantaneous switching.

... and I wonder if there's any difference at all.

I was hoping you guys might help, but I guess I just need to find out for myself.

 

[Frank Harvey]

My mind is open to the possibility that vinyl might sound wonderful, but I'm struggling to understand why it should, and you guys aren't really helping much! :?

I agree - it shouldn't. I'd love to know why vinyl sounds as good as it does, and why it sounds more natural than CD. We know that better engineered decks produce more accurate results (and a good deck can only produce what is on that record), but this still doesn't explain the differences we hear between the two formats.

I just want to know what the differences are. "More natural" is, I don't doubt, an honest attempt to describe them, but it's not especially helpful. And then I read this ...

I maintain that if the record player is good enough the difference between CD and vinyl is minimal.

Of course the discs need to be identical in production terms, I have heard some examples, mainly DG, played in sync and level matched that are virtually impossible to tell apart even with instantaneous switching.

... and I wonder if there's any difference at all.

I was hoping you guys might help, but I guess I just need to find out for myself.

Totally understand. It's always best to try things for yourself anyway. I don't know the extent of Dave's experience with turntables, and I'm not calling him into question in any way, but I can't imagine not being able to tell vinyl/CD apart, regardless of the price point involved, as it comes down to that certain something that vinyl has.

 

[stevebrock]

Im stil trying to work it out why it sounds preferable over CD too!

 

[Covenanter]

My mind is open to the possibility that vinyl might sound wonderful, but I'm struggling to understand why it should, and you guys aren't really helping much! :?

I agree - it shouldn't. I'd love to know why vinyl sounds as good as it does, and why it sounds more natural than CD. We know that better engineered decks produce more accurate results (and a good deck can only produce what is on that record), but this still doesn't explain the differences we hear between the two formats.

I just want to know what the differences are. "More natural" is, I don't doubt, an honest attempt to describe them, but it's not especially helpful. And then I read this ...

I maintain that if the record player is good enough the difference between CD and vinyl is minimal.

Of course the discs need to be identical in production terms, I have heard some examples, mainly DG, played in sync and level matched that are virtually impossible to tell apart even with instantaneous switching.

... and I wonder if there's any difference at all.

I was hoping you guys might help, but I guess I just need to find out for myself.

Totally understand. It's always best to try things for yourself anyway. I don't know the extent of Dave's experience with turntables, and I'm not calling him into question in any way, but I can't imagine not being able to tell vinyl/CD apart, regardless of the price point involved, as it comes down to that certain something that vinyl has.

That "certain something" is called distortion.

Chris