Tube-friendly speakers

[steve_1979]

Small standmount speakers tend to sound better than big floorstanders over the crucial mid-range frequencies. This is due to the way our ears and brains have evolved over thousands of years which mean that sounds (especially vocals) originating from a head sized speaker sound more natural to us.

this is interesting. never heard of it before and I red a lot about speaker acoustic. I don't see any reason why the size of the speaker, other than it's baffle width, would matter with respect to it sounding more natural or not. it certainly has nothing to do with a speaker being head-sized :rofl:

As I said earlier, it's something that Ashley James and a couple of other people on the AVI forum said. I've never read it in any speaker design books either though.

Small speakers also have a better stereo image and they have the advantage of radiating almost omnidirectionally too.

this is total nonsense! how can conicaly shaped,forward radiating sound source be omnidirectional at the same time?! ever heard about driver beaming? if small speakers have better imaging this is only due to them having smaller enclosure which is more difficult for us to detect enclosure reflections and thus detect speakers as the actual sound source.

Apart from the tweeters which beam at high frequencies small speakers do radiate almost omnidirectionally. Try turning a small pair of bookshelf speakers around 180 degrees so that they're facing away from your listening position. You'll likely find that the treble is reduced in volume a bit but apart from that the sound will hardly change.

Big floorstanding speakers have issues with internal standing waves and the large external surfaces suffer more from cabinet edge diffraction than small speakers do.

like small speakers don't have problems with standing waves?! again :rofl: for this statement.

Of course small speakers still have standing waves but it's much more of an issue with the large flat parallel surfaces that floorstanders have.

The big advantage that floorstanders do have over small standmount speakers is that they have a larger enclosure volume allowing them to reproduce deeper bass frequencies than small standmount speakers can.

what you write about here is enclosure resonance, not deep bass reproduction. deep bass comes from larger driver radiating area or higher driver excursion (but this route inevitably means higher harmonic distortion). enclosure thump is not deep bass as many people think is. but I can appreciate many people may like this quality of box speakers.

What makes you think that I was talking about enclosure resonance?

Speakers that have a larger enclosure volume are able to produce lower frequencies than speakers that have a small enclosure volume. This is a fact.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Apart from the tweeters which beam at high frequencies small speakers do radiate almost omnidirectionally. Try turning a small pair of bookshelf speakers around 180 degrees so that they're facing away from your listening position. You'll likely find that the treble is reduced in volume a bit but apart from that the sound will hardly change.

don't tell me you did this experiment yourself with your computer speakers. you just turned them around and then sit and listened what happened? ever heard about sound reflections? try to do the same experiment outside in open space (at least 10m - 15m clearance from boundaries. I know, there'll be a problem with floor distance but you can ignore this one for once) if you have long enough speaker cables. that way it's going to be much better approximation of anechoic environment than when your speakers face a wall in your room :rofl:

BTW this "omnidirectionality" of small speakers in your room should tell you a word or two about how prone dome&cone speakers are to interacting with your listening space.

Of course small speakers still have standing waves but it's much more of an issue with the large flat parallel surfaces that floorstanders have.

all floorstanders? for instance Sonus Faber Acalex is interested in are curved. many other speakers are tapered or also curved at the back. it's maybe only AVIs and few other British designers who are a relic of old school box speaker design with its ideal cuboid shape.

What makes you think that I was talking about enclosure resonance?

Speakers that have a larger enclosure volume are able to produce lower frequencies than speakers that have a small enclosure volume. This is a fact.

be it your way. I'm not really interested speaker enclosures so I wouldn't know how speaker enclosure enhances bass output. all I know I saw many measurements of speaker enclosures and they add significantly to the bass output of a speaker. regardless be them standmount or floorstander.

 

[steve_1979]

I can't be bothered to get into another pointless argument with you oldric.

It's getting late and I couldn't bare to have another one of these moments so lets just agree to diagree. :cheers:

 

[hoopsontoast]

Yup Steve:

"Apart from the tweeters which beam at high frequencies small speakers do radiate almost omnidirectionally. Try turning a small pair of bookshelf speakers around 180 degrees so that they're facing away from your listening position. You'll likely find that the treble is reduced in volume a bit but apart from that the sound will hardly change."

That is complete twaddle. What you are hearing are reflections rather than radiation. A boxed speaker will only radiate sound omidirectionally in the low bass (Below 100Hz or so) and everthing above that will be monopole.

And dont just take manufacturers guff as gospell. They are all trying to sell you their products. If you want some real speaker theory, read up on independent sources from the internet and books.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I can't be bothered to get into another pointless argument with you oldric.

It's getting late and I couldn't bare to have another one of these moments so lets just agree to diagree. :cheers:

this is not about agreeing to disagree. this is not a dispute about personal preferences. this is about science and hard facts. I thought I'll show you some pictures too.

this is how horizontal dispersion looks like for a typical, front firing, multi-driver box speaker:

some will look slightly better (smoother transition off axis) some much worse (more lobbing). but one thing for sure. you'll see how spls diminish when moving further off axis and further up the frequency spectrum. this is certainly no omnidirectional behavior.

and now; this is how an omnidirectional speaker dissipates:

see the difference?

 

[steve_1979]

I guess with more complex music (like big orchestras) the small speaker might start to show its limits.

Ironically pop music (either electronic or with drums) usually has more deep bass notes than classical music. I could happily live without a subwoofer if I only listened to classical. :?

I don't know how much classical music you listen to, or how many concerts you've been to (not meant to sound patronizing), but I suspect there are notes that reach just as low as that needed for the electronic stuff. I don't think you can get near the scale of a full orchestra, even with full range speakers. I have a Reference 18" sub, which only hints at it (but can put you through the back wall of the house with bass heavy pop).

Yes you're right there cno. I stand corrected.

There's more bassy classical music around than I originally thought: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/classical-music-with-bass

I still think that pop music generally sounds much more bassy than classical music though.

 

[steve_1979]

The speaker that produced this graph is the Sony SS-AR2 which is a large floorstanding speaker not a small bookshelf speaker. You will find that small speakers are more omnidirectional than that below 10kHz.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-ss-ar2-loudspeaker-measurements

Even with that very large floorstanding speaker everything below 10kHz is still fairly omnidirectional on that graph. Apart from the dip at around 2.5kHz it's only the high frequencies above 10kHz which decrease very rapidly off axis.

Which is what I said earlier.

Apart from the tweeters which beam at high frequencies small speakers do radiate almost omnidirectionally.

 

[daytona600]

www.rethm.com 97-102dB efficiency

 

[hoopsontoast]

The speaker that produced this graph is the Sony SS-AR2 which is a large floorstanding speaker not a small bookshelf speaker. You will find that small speakers are more omnidirectional than that below 10kHz.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-ss-ar2-loudspeaker-measurements

Even with that very large floorstanding speaker everything below 10kHz is still fairly omnidirectional on that graph. Apart from the dip at around 2.5kHz it's only the high frequencies above 10kHz which decrease very rapidly off axis.

Which is what I said earlier.

Apart from the tweeters which beam at high frequencies small speakers do radiate almost omnidirectionally.

I am sorry, in no way is that dispersion omnidirectional, and remember thats only up to 180 Degrees, if they did a 360 Degree plot (which would be useless) you would see that it would drastically reduce all output below 1Khz when you get past 180 Degrees.

 

[steve_1979]

I am sorry, in no way is that dispersion omnidirectional, and remember thats only up to 180 Degrees, if they did a 360 Degree plot (which would be useless) you would see that it would drastically reduce all output below 1Khz when you get past 180 Degrees.

...and as I said:

"The speaker that produced this graph is the Sony SS-AR2 which is a large floorstanding speaker not a small bookshelf speaker. You will find that small speakers are more omnidirectional than that below 10kHz."

 

[hoopsontoast]

Some small speaker comparison:
TAD Compact Reference CR1

Joseph Audio Pulsar

Harbeth P3ESR

PMC DB1i

ATC SCM 11

I could go on but none of those are much different to the Sony one posted before.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Even with that very large floorstanding speaker everything below 10kHz is still fairly omnidirectional on that graph. Apart from the dip at around 2.5kHz it's only the high frequencies above 10kHz which decrease very rapidly off axis.

Which is what I said earlier.

Apart from the tweeters which beam at high frequencies small speakers do radiate almost omnidirectionally.

sorry Steve. but if some 10dB dip @ 1kHz @ 90deg. is still omnidirectional to you then we must be talking about completely different matters.

BTW happy listening to your "omnidirectional" monitors sitting next to them :wave:

 

[steve_1979]

Here's a little experiment that you (or anyone else who's interested) may want to try.

The next time you visit a hifi shop have a listen to some small standmount speakers and walk around to see how the sound changes. You'll probably find that below 10kHz the sound only changes a little bit as you walk around.

Also have a listen to some big floorstanding speakers and walk around to see how the sound changes. You'll probably find that as you walk around the sound changes a bit more with the floorstanders than it did with the small standmounts.

Now I'm not saying that they're 100% perfectly omnidirectional. Of course they're not. But you'll probably find that the small standmounts sound mostly omnidirectional below 10kHz and that even with the big floorstanders the sound will still be fairly omnidirectional below 10kHz.

Go on, give it a try. You might be suprised.

 

[steve_1979]

The next time you visit a hifi shop have a listen to some small standmount speakers and walk around to see how the sound changes.

In fact most people can try this at home with their own speakers.* If possible move them out into the room so that they are effected less by the reflections and walk around them while listening to music.

You'll probably find that the high frequencies beam like a torch and you only need to move by a few degrees before you can hardly hear anything above 10kHz. But with the midrange and bass frequencies you'll be able to hear them from all around. The mid-range sounds will change a bit but the change is probably less than you would expect, especially if you have small standmount speakers.

*This probably won't work electrostatic speakers because they have a different off axis responce to enclosure type speakers.

 

[hoopsontoast]

The next time you visit a hifi shop have a listen to some small standmount speakers and walk around to see how the sound changes.

In fact most people can try this at home with their own speakers.* If possible move them out into the room so that they are effected less by the reflections and walk around them while listening to music.

You'll probably find that the high frequencies beam like a torch and you only need to move by a few degrees before you can hardly hear anything above 10kHz. But with the midrange and bass frequencies you'll be able to hear them from all around. The mid-range sounds will change a bit but the change is probably less than you would expect, especially if you have small standmount speakers.

*This probably won't work electrostatic speakers because they have a different off axis responce to enclosure type speakers.

One thing I will agree on. Dipole speakers such as open baffle speakers, Electrostatics and other panel speakers have a 'figure of 8' radiation pattern. So if I put my ears at the side of the speakers, even at high levels you hear almost nothing but room reflections.

Speaker Directivity

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm#B

 

[egoBen]

For a couple of days, I have tried Harbeth P3:s with my Jadis equipment. I think the bass is very nicely controlled, very different from when I am using Dynaudio speakers which isn't exactly ideal with only 30 watts. The Harbeths are great. The size and amount of deep bass suits my room. I am going to listen to other speakers aswell, hopefully also Audio Note's. Sonus Faber would be interesting to try aswell.

 

[Macspur]

For a couple of days, I have tried Harbeth P3:s with my Jadis equipment. I think the bass is very nicely controlled, very different from when I am using Dynaudio speakers which isn't exactly ideal with only 30 watts. The Harbeths are great. The size and amount of deep bass suits my room. I am going to listen to other speakers aswell, hopefully also Audio Note's. Sonus Faber would be interesting to try aswell.

Thanks for getting us back on topic.

If possible, try the Harbeth SHL5's.

If you've read this thread http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/new-amplifier-my-long-journey

you will know what Alex thinks of SF with his Jadis... Audio Note another top speaker.

Keep us posted how you get on.

Mac

 

[egoBen]

For a couple of days, I have tried Harbeth P3:s with my Jadis equipment. I think the bass is very nicely controlled, very different from when I am using Dynaudio speakers which isn't exactly ideal with only 30 watts. The Harbeths are great. The size and amount of deep bass suits my room. I am going to listen to other speakers aswell, hopefully also Audio Note's. Sonus Faber would be interesting to try aswell.

Thanks for getting us back on topic.

If possible, try the Harbeth SHL5's.

If you've read this thread http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/new-amplifier-my-long-journey

you will know what Alex thinks of SF with his Jadis... Audio Note another top speaker.

Keep us posted how you get on.

Mac

I like the initial idea of this thread very much and I want to to read about speakers that suits low-medium powered tube amplifiers. So keep writing! Harbeth speakers are, what it seems like, easier to drive than many other modern day speakers. (The salesman didn't think so at all actually, but I wanted to try them at home anyway. He thinks people are crazy trying low ohm speakers with tube amplifiers.) The P3esr:s are wonderful and I would like to try other speakers in the family but I'm afraid the bass will become too boomy in my room, I think I need something smaller. The reason why I'm not comletely sold is because they don't sound as big and beatiful as my other speakers, Dynaudio and Amphion. Actually, they did sound a bit small, there wasn't music all over the room like I'm used to, but that's of course only natural as they are smaller than a shoe box. The perfect bass is there though.

I have also heard my 30 watt Jadis amps with System Audio Mantra 60, pretty big danish floor standers and it was great! System Audio make speakers with very small drivers, 4", and several of them, and the bass is very "quick", which suits tube amps very well. If I'd had a bigger room I think I had gotten me a pair myself.

A friend at work praises the combination tubes and Sonus Faber Cremona's but I haven't managed to hear them myself.

 

[Macspur]

I have a very acoustically demanding listening room... quite long, but narrow and had terrible trouble finding a loud speaker that did not boom, finally settling on the SHL5's... try them if you can, you won't be disappointed.

I know of lots of people who use the Harbeth/tube combo and love it.

Mac

 

[egoBen]

I have a very acoustically demanding listening room... quite long, but narrow and had terrible trouble finding a loud speaker that did not boom, finally settling on the SHL5's... try them if you can, you won't be disappointed.

I know of lots of people who use the Harbeth/tube combo and love it.

Mac

That's very good to know. But I think the big Harbeth HL5 speakers are simply too big, both for the room aestheticly and especially my girlfriend. We have seen them in a store, but never heard them. I'm afraid it's not even an option. Maybe, if we listen to them, if they are good enough, she might change her opinion. I have read good things about the new Harbeth 30.1. They are very good looking aswell, much like the small P3:s but bigger. Should be pretty tube friendly aswell, and I don't think they are rear ported either, which should be good in my listening room. Can't have them very far out.

Right now I am doing an experiement. I am using my ordinary speakers with a very powerful solid state amp (Bladelius Thor II, 2x165 watt) just to see if there still is this booming sound in the room. And there is. It's not the 30 watt tube amp that's the problem, it's the room with too big speakers. This means I have to look for speakers that doesn't go too low, but still, they should be easy to drive as well. The search goes on. Yippie! And I mean that.

Edit: I have to add that I am very picky about booming bass. Some of my friends would have prefered more and much more of this, they wouldn't care at all. But I do.

 

[Macspur]

I'm the same, can't stand boomy base.

Take a look at this might give you a few pointers when it comes to Harbeth

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/forumdisplay.php?56-Harbeth-Super-HL5

Mac

 

[Anatta]

egoBen, you should try the Zingali bookshelfs if you can, these are very easy to drive and not boomy.

Also, if you don't mind the plain black look, you should try the Quested H108, very easy to drive and not boomy as well.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Also, if you don't mind the plain black look, you should try the Quested H108, very easy to drive and not boomy as well.

Heard one of the prototype/early models of this, very nice and good value.

Alos I would also see if you can hear some older Snells (E, J and K models). Not perfectly to my taste, but most if not all the models are easy to drive (Impedence stays above 6 Ohms) and reasonable efficiency due to their preference for near wall placement.

http://www.snell.no/the_archives_type_E.htm

The cheaper Audionote range are worth a look as well being a similar style to the Snells.

 

[steve_1979]

Also, if you don't mind the plain black look, you should try the Quested H108, very easy to drive and not boomy as well.

+1 Quested make some great speakers.

I haven't heard the passive versions but I rate their active speakers as some of the best around. They're a bit fugly though.

 

[acalex]

Ben, which model of Jadis you have?