Tube-friendly speakers

[CnoEvil]

Then again i might not have your ears, money, and "greed" for the best sound (which at least saves me a lot of money).

Once the Rubicon has been crossed, there is no going back.....it's a very dangerous game, this hifi lark.

 

[Rethep]

Yes, but maybe if you cross it too fast (taking too big steps at a time) you could be ready to spend the rest of your life thinking if there is really not something better, bigger and more expensive.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yes, but maybe if you cross it too fast (taking too big steps at a time) you could be ready to spend the rest of your life thinking if there is really not something better, bigger and more expensive.

I can't really argue with that!

 

[acalex]

After having experienced last adventure with Rob, I am back on my road for upgrading my speakers. My dealer actually offer me a sweet deal on some ex-demo Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento...looking like brand new and coming with a full warranty...but a 20% discount!

Maybe a few months ago I would jump quickly on the offer without thinking twice...today I am kind of wondering if this would be a wise move. I am trying to understand if this could be my ultimate speakers or I will soon regret haveing spent this amount of money on a standmount speaker...

I mean I love those speakers and I think they are a great match with my Jadis...but not sure if I won't be better off with nice floorstanders (new Venere model from SF are actually pretty good, not tried yet though)

Hope to see some nice thoughts and insights

 

[CnoEvil]

Hope to see some nice thoughts and insights

I think you need to hear some Audio Note, Living Voice and JM Renaud with the Jadis, before deciding....if you haven't already.

 

[steve_1979]

will soon regret haveing spent this amount of money on a standmount speaker...

I mean I love those speakers and I think they are a great match with my Jadis...but not sure if I won't be better off with nice floorstanders

Instead of going for floorstanders have you considered using the Guarneri Memento standmounts with a separate subwoofer. That way you can have the best of both worlds.

 

[acalex]

will soon regret haveing spent this amount of money on a standmount speaker...

I mean I love those speakers and I think they are a great match with my Jadis...but not sure if I won't be better off with nice floorstanders

Instead of going for floorstanders have you considered using the Guarneri Memento standmounts with a separate subwoofer. That way you can have the best of both worlds.

Steve, I actually don't mind not having a subwoofer as the Guarneri have plenty of bass for my taste! What would be the advantages/disadvantages of going for a standmount over a floorstander?

 

[acalex]

Hope to see some nice thoughts and insights

I think you need to hear some Audio Note, Living Voice and JM Renaud with the Jadis, before deciding....if you haven't already.

Cno, I have heard the LV so far but not the AN and the JMR...not very impressed with the Living Voice...the GM just blew them but that was not fair competition I must admit!

 

[steve_1979]

What would be the advantages/disadvantages of going for a standmount over a floorstander?

I'm no expert so please take this explanation with a pinch of salt and bare in mind that I'm generalizing here.

The mid-range is the most important part of the music because these are the frequencies that our ears and brains are the most sensitive to.

Small standmount speakers tend to sound better than big floorstanders over the crucial mid-range frequencies. This is due to the way our ears and brains have evolved over thousands of years which mean that sounds (especially vocals) originating from a head sized speaker sound more natural to us. Small speakers also have a better stereo image and they have the advantage of radiating almost omnidirectionally too.

Big floorstanding speakers have issues with internal standing waves and the large external surfaces suffer more from cabinet edge diffraction than small speakers do. The big advantage that floorstanders do have over small standmount speakers is that they have a larger enclosure volume allowing them to reproduce deeper bass frequencies than small standmount speakers can.

By using various porting and tuning techniques it's possible to make a small speaker that sounds like it has more bass by boosting some of the mid-bass frequencies or by making them boom. But it's imposssible to make a small speaker that can produce deep bass.

This is why I think that a good pair or non boomy standmount speakers used together with a high quality subwoofer can give you the best of both worlds.

Having said this most standmount speakers boom and most subwoofers are designed to be loud 'one note boomers'* that are only intended to be used as part of home cinema setups. If you want to hear a 2.1 system that sounds good with music have a listen to some AVI 2.1 speakers, Genelec 2.1 speakers or the Acoustic Energy ProSat / ProSub speakers.

* Over exaggerated generalization.

 

[CnoEvil]

Small standmount speakers tend to sound better than big floorstanders over the crucial mid-range frequencies. This is due to the way our ears and brains have evolved over thousands of years which mean that sounds (especially vocals) originating from a head sized speaker sound more natural to us.

Now it's my turn to mostly agree with you.

I have never heard the above theory before, which doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. Are you saying the mid-range "appears" better because its coming from a head sized object, even though it may not be.

I have to say I've never found this, in fact very often I find that the mids sound better when "in balance" from a speaker with a fuller range...subjective, I know.

The sub issue is not straight forward as integration can be problematical - even when you have a sub good enough for the job. Saying that it can be done, but care is needed to make sure the speakers and sub are completely in phase and any extra bass issues are dealt with.

Other than that, I'm in complete agreement. Standmounts are usually better at imaging, timing and speed. They can often sound more intimate and real due to these qualities, as one's ear and brain are more discriminating than is often realized (imo).

Floorstanders do scale, but it is much harder to make a good one cheaply, due to the problems/compromises you mentioned. At equivalent money, the standmount is usually better, as the money it costs to make, goes further.

Generally speaking room size ends up being the key...for obvious reasons.

 

[acalex]

Thanks to Steve and Cno for extremely clear and excellent explanations...you really pin pointed the pro and cons of both worlds...now I have a much better view. I especially agree on the fact that the SFG sounded more intimate than any other speaker I tried (only floorstanders). They also had a stunning image and focus...it was like watching a 3d image in front of you

I guess with more complex music (like big orchestras) the small speaker might start to show its limits. I might take those back home and see what happens in my room which is around 4x5 meters being maybe a bit on the reflective side.

 

[steve_1979]

Now it's my turn to mostly agree with you.

I think that we'd better stop agreeing on things. I might get the reputation of being an audiophile.

I have never heard the above theory before, which doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. Are you saying the mid-range "appears" better because its coming from a head sized object, even though it may not be. I have to say I've never found this, in fact very often I find that the mids sound better when "in balance" from a speaker with a fuller range...subjective, I know.

TBH this is only something that I've read on the AVI forum. It's been mentioned there several times by a couple of the very knowledgeable members as well as by Ashley. I think that it's to do with the way that the sound waves interact with the external shape of the enclosure as they radiate away.

From my own subjective experience standmount speakers do tend to sound more natural over the mid-range frequencies than equivalently priced floorstanders. But as I said I'm not an expert so take this with a pinch of salt.

The sub issue is not straight forward as integration can be problematical - even when you have a sub good enough for the job.

I agree. Most of the subwoofer based setups that I've heard have issues with integration - they either boom or they sound directional. This is why I mentioned AVI, Genelec and the Acousitc Energy Pro 2.1 setups because with these the integration is 100% seamless.

I have my subwoofer placed directly underneath my right ear but you can never tell which direction the bass is coming from. The integration is so good that sometimes the bass notes can even sound like they're coming from the left side of the stereo image.

Standmounts are usually better at imaging, timing and speed. They can often sound more intimate and real due to these qualities, as one's ear and brain are more discriminating than is often realized (imo). Floorstanders do scale, but it is much harder to make a good one cheaply, due to the problems/compromises you mentioned. At equivalent money, the standmount is usually better, as the money it costs to make, goes further.

I agree again. (Doh :doh: )

Generally speaking room size ends up being the key...for obvious reasons.

I agree. I forget to mention it but obviously the room you're listening in is an important factor to consider when picking speakers. I've never actually done it myself but I can see why auditioning speakers at home is a good idea.

 

[steve_1979]

I guess with more complex music (like big orchestras) the small speaker might start to show its limits.

Ironically pop music (either electronic or with drums) usually has more deep bass notes than classical music. I could happily live without a subwoofer if I only listened to classical. :?

 

[CnoEvil]

I guess with more complex music (like big orchestras) the small speaker might start to show its limits.

Ironically pop music (either electronic or with drums) usually has more deep bass notes than classical music. I could happily live without a subwoofer if I only listened to classical. :?

I don't know how much classical music you listen to, or how many concerts you've been to (not meant to sound patronizing), but I suspect there are notes that reach just as low as that needed for the electronic stuff.

I don't think you can get near the scale of a full orchestra, even with full range speakers. I have a Reference 18" sub, which only hints at it (but can put you through the back wall of the house with bass heavy pop).

 

[steve_1979]

I guess with more complex music (like big orchestras) the small speaker might start to show its limits.

Ironically pop music (either electronic or with drums) usually has more deep bass notes than classical music. I could happily live without a subwoofer if I only listened to classical. :?

I don't know how much classical music you listen to, or how many concerts you've been to (not meant to sound patronizing), but I suspect there are notes that reach just as low as that needed for the electronic stuff. I don't think you can get near the scale of a full orchestra, even with full range speakers. I have a Reference 18" sub, which only hints at it (but can put you through the back wall of the house with bass heavy pop).

I've never actually seen a real orchestra play live (I dream of going to the Last of the Proms one day).

When listening to classical music at home though I find that most of it doesn't sound like it has much bass. Especially when compared to electronic music or music with drums.

 

[CnoEvil]

I've never actually seen a real orchestra play live (I dream of going the Last of the Proms one day).

When listening to classical music at home though I find that most of it doesn't sound like it has much bass. Especially when compared to electronic music or music with drums.

That is exactly the way it comes across, partly because of some of the recordings, but mostly because it takes a very expensive system to give an approximation.

If you ever get to the proms (which I hope you do), you will literally be blown away by the impact. It's as big a difference as going from a portable, to an expensive hifi system.

Now, lets find something to disagree on, so the universe can get back into balance!

 

[steve_1979]

Now, lets find something to disagree on, so the universe can get back into balance!

At least we know that it doesn't matter what mains lead he uses because they all sound the same. oke: :twisted:

 

[Roby]

mmm Intresting theory...

But I was always told that standmount's ofthen sound good because it's easier to get the crosover right?

But than like mentioned there is the roomfilling factor.

 

[CnoEvil]

Now, lets find something to disagree on, so the universe can get back into balance!

At least we know that it doesn't matter what mains lead he uses because they all sound the same. oke: :twisted:

Do we indeed??!!

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I'm no expert so please take this explanation with a pinch of salt and bare in mind that I'm generalizing here.

The mid-range is the most important part of the music because these are the frequencies that our ears and brains are the most sensitive to.

Small standmount speakers tend to sound better than big floorstanders over the crucial mid-range frequencies. This is due to the way our ears and brains have evolved over thousands of years which mean that sounds (especially vocals) originating from a head sized speaker sound more natural to us.

this is interesting. never heard of it before and I red a lot about speaker acoustic. I don't see any reason why the size of the speaker, other than it's baffle width, would matter with respect to it sounding more natural or not. it certainly has nothing to do with a speaker being head-sized :rofl: take Quads for instance. nothing close to head-sized speakers but many claim they get as close to the real thing with vocals as it gets.

Small speakers also have a better stereo image and they have the advantage of radiating almost omnidirectionally too.

this is total nonsense! how can conicaly shaped,forward radiating sound source be omnidirectional at the same time?! ever heard about driver beaming? if small speakers have better imaging this is only due to them having smaller enclosure which is more difficult for us to detect enclosure reflections and thus detect speakers as the actual sound source. but again what if you don't have an enclosure, like in case of ESLs, to worry about in the first place?

Big floorstanding speakers have issues with internal standing waves and the large external surfaces suffer more from cabinet edge diffraction than small speakers do.

like small speakers don't have problems with standing waves?! again :rofl: for this statement.

cabinet edge diffraction has nothing to do with size of the speaker but with the shape of the enclosure (search Olson if interested) and the frequency at which you need to compensate for baffle step depends on baffle width and driver size. it doesn't matter if the enclosure is deep or shallow, tall or small.

The big advantage that floorstanders do have over small standmount speakers is that they have a larger enclosure volume allowing them to reproduce deeper bass frequencies than small standmount speakers can.

what you write about here is enclosure resonance, not deep bass reproduction. deep bass comes from larger driver radiating area or higher driver excursion (but this route inevitably means higher harmonic distortion). enclosure thump is not deep bass as many people think is. but I can appreciate many people may like this quality of box speakers.

By using various porting and tuning techniques it's possible to make a small speaker that sounds like it has more bass by boosting some of the mid-bass frequencies or by making them boom. But it's imposssible to make a small speaker that can produce deep bass.

at least one statement that is actually correct

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

After having experienced last adventure with Rob, I am back on my road for upgrading my speakers. My dealer actually offer me a sweet deal on some ex-demo Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento...looking like brand new and coming with a full warranty...but a 20% discount!

Maybe a few months ago I would jump quickly on the offer without thinking twice...today I am kind of wondering if this would be a wise move. I am trying to understand if this could be my ultimate speakers or I will soon regret haveing spent this amount of money on a standmount speaker...

I mean I love those speakers and I think they are a great match with my Jadis...but not sure if I won't be better off with nice floorstanders (new Venere model from SF are actually pretty good, not tried yet though)

Hope to see some nice thoughts and insights

hi Acalex. I say you should go and try out some panel speakers. if only to discard that option as a valid one for you. try to audition Magnepan MG3.7 (so far I could only find good opinions about them on the net) or Quads ESLs, as those are definitely valve amp friendly. BTW there's been a update on Quad ESLs recently and the new ones are marked 2912 and 2812.

you haven't listened to my advice the first time, re: Pathos amps. and I heard you planning a change to a Pathos some time ago . try panels this time before you commit to buying anything. you've got nothing to loose really and a lot to gain.

 

[acalex]

Well, a lot of insights here, it will take me some time to read and understand all of them!

I guess I need to start taking home some of the speakers and try in a familiar environment, it would be difficult to find all brand I would like to try available for home demos, but I least I will make sure it's exactly what I like.

 

[Roby]

If I where you I would try some speakers with a higher efficienty. see how it sound's

An as you know I'm always in for the expiriences ;-)

 

[Covenanter]

I found this which is quite interesting about classical instruments:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/topics/frequency_e.html

Certainly you can get impressive bass from an orchestra. I remember one particular Prom where we sat in the "orchestra seats" behind the double basses and you could feel those in your stomach. The thing with classical music is that it isn't thump thump bass. It's more subtle.

Chris

 

[steve_1979]

I found this which is quite interesting about classical instruments:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/topics/frequency_e.html

Interesting link. Thanks for posting.

The only piece of classical music that I listen to at home that gets my subwoofer flapping is this:

Johann Sebastian Bach – Toccata & Fugue D Minor, BWV. 565

Could anyone give me an example of another piece of classical music that has room shaking bass like pop music does?