Tube-friendly speakers

[CnoEvil]

It actually was very very interesting. Not very long listening session as Roby came late :roll: and the guy had another demo after.

We had opportunity to have a back to back comparison between kef ref and cabasse...and to our surprise the cabasse was better almost every time. Cabasse is a semi active with bass compartment driven by a dedicated 450w amplifier. The cabasse was more room filling and had a more upfront presentation without becoming too bright or fatiguing. Both are very transparent speakers with the cabasse being slightly faster then the kef. Amplifier was a plinths sa103 and audio lab as cd player.

The size of the cabasse might be the downside as I think these speakers really need bigger space to offer their full potential.

We decided to come back one day with our respective amplifiers to see how both these speakers will perform in a longer listening session. The hunt is starting...the update will probably be happening beginning of 2013...will be fun!

I have to congratulate you both on coming up with truly inovative speakers.

I was poking around the Cabasse website this morning, and found a link to an excellent Hifi+ review. The fact that it has a 450W digital amp driving the bass has 2 advantages:

- The bass can be altered by +/- 6dBs, thus allowing them to be tailored to individual rooms.

- But the biggest advantage for you, is that they have a sensitivity of 91.5 dB, and Hifi+'s far field in room tecnnique, measured it at an incredible 95 dB!!

Hifi+ describe them as quite laid back, while also being very dynamic. They have great timing, with a quick, agile bass that rolls off steeply at 30 Hz. Their transparancy is such that they will highlight the system driving them, and the reviewers could clearly tell the difference between the Vertex AQ, Naim NAC A5 and Chord Signature cables that were used.

You have now come up with a pair of speakers that answer all my reservations about your tube amp's compatability. The 3SAs have the sensitivity of a horn design, incorporate their own powerful amp to look after the bass, and will take on the magnificent mid-range of the Jadis (while answering its possible weakness). Now it's just the small matter of £11k.

I can believe that they sounded better than the Refs, but pricewise, they are more in line with the 207/2s, though saying that, you haven't heard the 205/2s with the 35i yet!!!

 

[CnoEvil]

Here is a link to the Cabasse website....just click on the Hifi+ review to download:
http://www.cabasse.com/us/range/artis/pacific3sa

 

[acalex]

Yes indeed they have a selector to increase/decrease the amount of bass you want. The difference of sensitivity with the kef was evident as we had to decrease the volume of a notch every time we were swapping speakers.

Regarding the comparison, I never said it was a fair one . Indeed the Cabasse would compete with the 207/2 as also the price suggests. Unfortunately they were not available.

I agree regarding being laid back if compared to other speakers we heard, my observation was strictly limited to the kef vs Cabasse where we found the French ones to be slighty more on the front compared to the kef being more laid back. Would you agree with this statement regarding the kef? I was very impress by the lower frequencies of the kef, very deep and enjoyable.

Now yes, there would be the price problem,but you never know these days we could find a deal quite easily if we start look around a bit. Thanks a lot for the review, I will read it attentively and come back with my thoughts on that. Very curios to see what Rob thinks as he was also very impressed.

 

[iceman16]

Hi Alex, Is there any dealer in that area where you can demo the Focal diablo utopia? All the best Ice

 

[CnoEvil]

I agree regarding being laid back if compared to other speakers we heard, my observation was strictly limited to the kef vs Cabasse where we found the French ones to be slighty more on the front compared to the kef being more laid back. Would you agree with this statement regarding the kef? I was very impress by the lower frequencies of the kef, very deep and enjoyable.

Hmmm!

I would not decribe the Kefs as "laid back"....but then, I suppose it depends on what you are comparing them to....and also what's driving them.

Compared to Spendor and Sonus Faber they are lively; but put Focal, Monitor Audio or Triangle into the mix, and they sound a little less forward in comparison.

If you connected the Jadis to the 205/2s, they would sound a little creamy and laid back; but connect them to a heavy-weight Bryston, and they will feel incredibly dynamic and punchy, but far more neutral....and you would lose the euphonious mid-range that you so love.

I suspect that the Cabasse sounded more forward because it has 450W punching out, and controlling the bass, and possibly the tweeter is a touch livelier,; or their more sensitive nature causes this. Either way, if both you and Rob liked them, they must have been both lively, detailed and sweet.

I suspect that they will be a great match for the Jadis (as stated in a previous post)....and that you will get your socks blown off when you get to hear them together.

I also believe you will get your eyes opened when you get to hear an all Audio Note system. It looks as if it was knocked up by a DIY fanatic, with more entusiasm than talent, in his man-shed.......using technology that even Noah would have rejected for the Ark's fidelity system!....but don't let that fool you, as imo, it's some of the best sounding stuff on the planet!

Bear in mind that speakers like these change completely, depending on what's driving them....but the Refs even more so, as they don't have a dedicated 450W power amp controlling the bass.

 

[acalex]

Hi Alex, Is there any dealer in that area where you can demo the Focal diablo utopia? All the best Ice

Yes there is...and it is in Brussels also. I guess we will be going quite soon there as Rob put them on his short list. So we will be listening to the Diablo connected to the AMS

 

[acalex]

I agree regarding being laid back if compared to other speakers we heard, my observation was strictly limited to the kef vs Cabasse where we found the French ones to be slighty more on the front compared to the kef being more laid back. Would you agree with this statement regarding the kef? I was very impress by the lower frequencies of the kef, very deep and enjoyable.

Hmmm!

I would not decribe the Kefs as "laid back"....but then, I suppose it depends on what you are comparing them to....and also what's driving them.

Compared to Spendor and Sonus Faber they are lively; but put Focal, Monitor Audio or Triangle into the mix, and they sound a little less forward in comparison.

If you connected the Jadis to the 205/2s, they would sound a little creamy and laid back; but connect them to a heavy-weight Bryston, and they will feel incredibly dynamic and punchy, but far more neutral....and you would lose the euphonious mid-range that you so love.

I suspect that the Cabasse sounded more forward because it has 450W punching out, and controlling the bass, and possibly the tweeter is a touch livelier,; or their more sensitive nature causes this. Either way, if both you and Rob liked them, they must have been both lively, detailed and sweet.

I suspect that they will be a great match for the Jadis (as stated in a previous post)....and that you will get your socks blown off when you get to hear them together.

I also believe you will get your eyes opened when you get to hear an all Audio Note system. It looks as if it was knocked up by a DIY fanatic, with more entusiasm than talent, in his man-shed.......using technology that even Noah would have rejected for the Ark's fidelity system!....but don't let that fool you, as imo, it's some of the best sounding stuff on the planet!

Bear in mind that speakers like these change completely, depending on what's driving them....but the Refs even more so, as they don't have a dedicated 450W power amp controlling the bass.

Great post as usual, thanks a lot for your thoughts!

It is indeed what I thought...more than laid back I would say they were a bit less forward than other we tried, you are perfectly right when you say they stand in the middle between Sonus Faber and Monitor Audio...it is exactly what I think.

I also suspect that it would be a great match with Jadis...I am a bit scared about that as if I really like them I won't stop thinking about getting them, :cheers:

Hopefully I will manage to hear soon a full AN system...as I am now starting to wonder how that could be possible sound more musical than the best stuff we heard so far! But I trust you :cheers:

 

[CnoEvil]

Great post as usual, thanks a lot for your thoughts!

It is indeed what I thought...more than laid back I would say they were a bit less forward than other we tried, you are perfectly right when you say they stand in the middle between Sonus Faber and Monitor Audio...it is exactly what I think.

I also suspect that it would be a great match with Jadis...I am a bit scared about that as if I really like them I won't stop thinking about getting them, :cheers:

Hopefully I will manage to hear soon a full AN system...as I am now starting to wonder how that could be possible sound more musical than the best stuff we heard so far! But I trust you :cheers:

This is the Audio Note system that I heard (room 057): http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/19/11/2010/northern-ireland-audio-show-part-three/

You are finding out that there is an incredible world of hifi out there just waiting to be discovered; especially if you are prepared to spend a bit......and the more you look to spend, the more important it is to hear what's available.

I would love to be part of your demos, as you are listening to exactly the type of kit that I like. I hope the rest of the forum gets as much enjoyment out of your (and Rob's) antics as I do.....please give him a dig in the ribs, as we are still waiting for him to "spill."

 

[gregvet]

....we had a good listen to the Cabasse Pacific SA3, huge glossy black speakers (the Kef 205/2 looked small compared to them) which are supposed to be 8 ohm speakers (dropping to 4 as a min impedance) with 91.5db sensitivity....and wow!!!

I assume it was these rather interesting beasties: http://www.whathifi.com/blog/cabasse-pacific-3-launch-in-paris

It actually was very very interesting. Not very long listening session as Roby came late :roll: and the guy had another demo after.

We had opportunity to have a back to back comparison between kef ref and cabasse...and to our surprise the cabasse was better almost every time. Cabasse is a semi active with bass compartment driven by a dedicated 450w amplifier. The cabasse was more room filling and had a more upfront presentation without becoming too bright or fatiguing. Both are very transparent speakers with the cabasse being slightly faster then the kef. Amplifier was a plinths sa103 and audio lab as cd player.

The size of the cabasse might be the downside as I think these speakers really need bigger space to offer their full potential.

We decided to come back one day with our respective amplifiers to see how both these speakers will perform in a longer listening session. The hunt is starting...the update will probably be happening beginning of 2013...will be fun!

To be fair to the Kefs, it sounds like a difficult comparison given the Cabasse speakers are semi active. My only thought is, given you love the Jadis amp so much, do you really want to then not use this lovely amp for some of the frequencies? If I had such an amazing amp I dont think I could bear to link it to speakers that had onboard amplification, even if only for the bass frequencies! Silly I know

 

[CnoEvil]

To be fair to the Kefs, it sounds like a difficult comparison given the Cabasse speakers are semi active. My only thought is, given you love the Jadis amp so much, do you really want to then not use this lovely amp for some of the frequencies? If I had such an amazing amp I dont think I could bear to link it to speakers that had onboard amplification, even if only for the bass frequencies! Silly I know

I see it differently. The strength of the Jadis is in the mid-range and treble.......so backed up by the 450W amp of the Cabasse, the sound will have bass power and control, that the Jadis can only dream of.....ie. perfect synergy.

 

[acalex]

To be fair to the Kefs, it sounds like a difficult comparison given the Cabasse speakers are semi active. My only thought is, given you love the Jadis amp so much, do you really want to then not use this lovely amp for some of the frequencies? If I had such an amazing amp I dont think I could bear to link it to speakers that had onboard amplification, even if only for the bass frequencies! Silly I know

Thanks for your insights! Yes, I really love the Jadis but I tend to agree with Cno on this one. The beauty of this amplifier is the magic mid-range and smooth trebles...it is a known issue the bass control of low powered tube amplifiers...even if my Jadis defends itself quite well at this regard (thanks also to the KT90 tubes I am using instead of the KT88) I do not see any harm in letting the bass be driven by a more capable amplifier setting the amp free to concentrate on what it performs at its best!

So I think it also as a potential great sinergy but I can also be totally wrong! The good thing is that the dealer stocking the Cabasse is a very kind person and would let me play around with the speakers, my amp and any source he has in stock. Plus he is in Brussels...so not long driving around countries.

 

[acalex]

Great post as usual, thanks a lot for your thoughts!

It is indeed what I thought...more than laid back I would say they were a bit less forward than other we tried, you are perfectly right when you say they stand in the middle between Sonus Faber and Monitor Audio...it is exactly what I think.

I also suspect that it would be a great match with Jadis...I am a bit scared about that as if I really like them I won't stop thinking about getting them, :cheers:

Hopefully I will manage to hear soon a full AN system...as I am now starting to wonder how that could be possible sound more musical than the best stuff we heard so far! But I trust you :cheers:

This is the Audio Note system that I heard (room 057): http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/19/11/2010/northern-ireland-audio-show-part-three/ You are finding out that there is an incredible world of hifi out there just waiting to be discovered; especially if you are prepared to spend a bit......and the more you look to spend, the more important it is to hear what's available. I would love to be part of your demos, as you are listening to exactly the type of kit that I like. I hope the rest of the forum gets as much enjoyment out of your (and Rob's) antics as I do.....please give him a dig in the ribs, as we are still waiting for him to "spill."

It looks like an amazing system! Really would like to hear such an high-level system from Audio Note...I bet it sounded fantastic. Pity the AN dealer is so far from Brussels.

When you decide to come to Brussels we will try to organise a great demo with Macintosh and Sonus Faber :cheers:

I really hope also these long posts and interesting discussions will be of any interest to other members...but I am glad to see always more users getting into the discussions...I remember the first 400 posts of my amplifier's choice thread were almost a private discussion between you and me and can't tell you how much you helped me going through such a new and complicated experience...but it was a lot of fun.

Roby is still missing...now he owns us two reviews, the Pathos experience and last tast we had with Kef Ref and Cabasse :read:

 

[DocG]

Yes indeed they have a selector to increase/decrease the amount of bass you want. The difference of sensitivity with the kef was evident as we had to decrease the volume of a notch every time we were swapping speakers.

Regarding the comparison, I never said it was a fair one . Indeed the Cabasse would compete with the 207/2 as also the price suggests. Unfortunately they were not available.

I agree regarding being laid back if compared to other speakers we heard, my observation was strictly limited to the kef vs Cabasse where we found the French ones to be slighty more on the front compared to the kef being more laid back. Would you agree with this statement regarding the kef? I was very impress by the lower frequencies of the kef, very deep and enjoyable.

Now yes, there would be the price problem,but you never know these days we could find a deal quite easily if we start look around a bit. Thanks a lot for the review, I will read it attentively and come back with my thoughts on that. Very curios to see what Rob thinks as he was also very impressed.

If you like the concept of the Cabasse better than the price tag, Golden Ear's Triton Two might just be the ticket: the built-in 1200 W amp with subwoofer level control will take care of the bass, while the Jadis can shine in the midband; and the folded ribbon tweeter is said to sound really special. Looks are somewhat underwhelming (or understated, if you like), with a black cloth sock all around the speaker (no grills-off option here). But it eats just a third of your Cabasse-budget: just think how much vinyl 8000 EUR can buy you!

I'll ask around when they're due to arrive in BXL. I'll keep you posted. (needless to say that I can't wait to hear them myself )

 

[WishTree]

If you like the concept of the Cabasse better than the price tag, Golden Ear's Triton Two might just be the ticket: the built-in 1200 W amp with subwoofer level control will take care of the bass, while the Jadis can shine in the midband; and the folded ribbon tweeter is said to sound really special. Looks are somewhat underwhelming (or understated, if you like), with a black cloth sock all around the speaker (no grills-off option here). But it eats just a third of your Cabasse-budget: just think how much vinyl 8000 EUR can buy you!

I'll ask around when they're due to arrive in BXL. I'll keep you posted. (needless to say that I can't wait to hear them myself )

Where ever I read, it is all good news about the Golden Ear speakers. Given the amount of interent reading done and in comparision to the real world experience - it gives a kind of skill, mostly acurate to have a gut feeling on things, not 100% but mostly.. from that I can say Golden Ears are must audition.

Ofcourse, I like the fact that their technology is advance with ribbon tweeters, semi active nature and other pros but still does not cost so much!! Please try them

 

[Rethep]

To be fair to the Kefs, it sounds like a difficult comparison given the Cabasse speakers are semi active. My only thought is, given you love the Jadis amp so much, do you really want to then not use this lovely amp for some of the frequencies? If I had such an amazing amp I dont think I could bear to link it to speakers that had onboard amplification, even if only for the bass frequencies! Silly I know

I agree! There is also the way to get used to your pure tubes-bass-sound, your room is not really that big. Anyway what is wrong with the sound of your RX6's ? At least their efficiency is high!

 

[acalex]

Erik, Wish...you are definitely right as at this price and with all the new technology onboard they are a must audition. Only problem remains availability in Brussels/Belgium and design (as you might not now every piece of equipment entering the living room has to look nice also...it is the only "limit" I have to accept... :rofl: )

 

[acalex]

I agree! There is also the way to get used to your pure tubes-bass-sound, your room is not really that big. Anyway what is wrong with the sound of your RX6's ? At least their efficiency is high!

At the end of the day there is nothing wrong with these speakers in general, especially with a tube amp like the Jadis which offset very well the tendency to be a bit bright. But the speakers are certaintly holding back the potential of the amplifier...it is also normal compared the price disproportion existing...

 

[WishTree]

Erik, Wish...you are definitely right as at this price and with all the new technology onboard they are a must audition. Only problem remains availability in Brussels/Belgium and design (as you might not now every piece of equipment entering the living room has to look nice also...it is the only "limit" I have to accept... :rofl: )

Fully Agree.. Looks threw me off too.. There are few brands which have no dealers in Germany but only in Belgium or Netherlands.. One is Golden Ear and the other is Anthony Gallo Reference 3.5

Reference 3.5 has a great technology behind it and well received it. They even say that tubes for highs and ss for lows - have it your way! The 10" built-in woofer has a secondary voice call which can be driven with a seperate amp to give the real floor to the bass. Again, the looks are a bit.. too futuristic but to me they are totally fine.. I am very tired of boxes (cuboids in various forms) with the looks mostly. So 3.5 offers a welcome change

Another brand on my radar is Vivid Audio. One more time the looks and finishes are a hit & miss but the sound seems to be correct.

In the next few weeks, I will be trying out Anthony Gallo Strada as well as Vivid Audio V1.5 at home so will post an update. Given the Kef Reference 201/2 as well as R300s at home, you might be able to tune my review more accurately when I write the differences.

 

[hoopsontoast]

With a 35w tube amp, you should be fine with most speakers.

If your amp does not have 4 and 8 ohm taps, then a nice flat impedance 8 Ohms speaker should be used (ideally), but if it has a dedicated 4 Ohm tap, then that opens up the speaker choice.

I would have not thought you would need high efficiency speakers with that kind of power though. In a normal room, I have used a 1.5w SET, 8w PP Monoblocks and 15w power amp, all tubes with 80dB/8.5Ohm (DC resistance measured) speakers and they give more than enough output.

Unless you want to party, then flat Impedance matched to the output transformer, rather than sensitivity is the key.

Remember that the difference between 35w and 70w is only potentially 3dB more output, and 35w and 140w, potentially only 6dB more output. Personally I never get over 70dB @ 1m (~67dB @ listening position), so even accounting for 15dB peaks, thats only using 4-5w at the very very most. And thats not taking into account 2xspeakers, room gain etc.

 

[acalex]

With a 35w tube amp, you should be fine with most speakers.

If your amp does not have 4 and 8 ohm taps, then a nice flat impedance 8 Ohms speaker should be used (ideally), but if it has a dedicated 4 Ohm tap, then that opens up the speaker choice.

I would have not thought you would need high efficiency speakers with that kind of power though. In a normal room, I have used a 1.5w SET, 8w PP Monoblocks and 15w power amp, all tubes with 80dB/8.5Ohm (DC resistance measured) speakers and they give more than enough output.

Unless you want to party, then flat Impedance matched to the output transformer, rather than sensitivity is the key.

Remember that the difference between 35w and 70w is only potentially 3dB more output, and 35w and 140w, potentially only 6dB more output. Personally I never get over 70dB @ 1m (~67dB @ listening position), so even accounting for 15dB peaks, thats only using 4-5w at the very very most. And thats not taking into account 2xspeakers, room gain etc.

Thanks a lot for your consideration. I am also quite convinced about that since I have also heard some 4 ohm nominal impedence 88db sensitivity speakers connected to the Jadis (the Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento) and it went loud enough (I agree also with the 70db 1mt) and it was actually a great match!

To be honest I haven't still heard a higher/flat impedence speaker yet connected to the Jadis to evaluate what the result will be...but thanks agian for reasurring me on this subject

 

[acalex]

Erik, Wish...you are definitely right as at this price and with all the new technology onboard they are a must audition. Only problem remains availability in Brussels/Belgium and design (as you might not now every piece of equipment entering the living room has to look nice also...it is the only "limit" I have to accept... :rofl: )

Fully Agree.. Looks threw me off too.. There are few brands which have no dealers in Germany but only in Belgium or Netherlands.. One is Golden Ear and the other is Anthony Gallo Reference 3.5

Reference 3.5 has a great technology behind it and well received it. They even say that tubes for highs and ss for lows - have it your way! The 10" built-in woofer has a secondary voice call which can be driven with a seperate amp to give the real floor to the bass. Again, the looks are a bit.. too futuristic but to me they are totally fine.. I am very tired of boxes (cuboids in various forms) with the looks mostly. So 3.5 offers a welcome change

Another brand on my radar is Vivid Audio. One more time the looks and finishes are a hit & miss but the sound seems to be correct.

In the next few weeks, I will be trying out Anthony Gallo Strada as well as Vivid Audio V1.5 at home so will post an update. Given the Kef Reference 201/2 as well as R300s at home, you might be able to tune my review more accurately when I write the differences.

Yes, you have also to consider my gf has to give the last approval regarding the design...and that's the most difficult test. I am pretty ok with that as, on the other hand, it doesn't matter how many boxes I take home :rockout:

She saw the Guarneri Memento and fell in love so it will be very difficult to find something competing in terms of design :wall:

The Vivid Audio and Anthony Gallo look a bit too futuristic also for me...so no chances there. But I am VERY interested to see what you think after you have tried them

 

[WishTree]

Yes, you have also to consider my gf has to give the last approval regarding the design...and that's the most difficult test. I am pretty ok with that as, on the other hand, it doesn't matter how many boxes I take home :rockout:

She saw the Guarneri Memento and fell in love so it will be very difficult to find something competing in terms of design :wall:

The Vivid Audio and Anthony Gallo look a bit too futuristic also for me...so no chances there. But I am VERY interested to see what you think after you have tried them

Ofcourse, after seeing any Sonus Faber speakers, it is very hard to pick up any other speakers just based on the way they look !

I am completely with you on the pride of Ownership and especially more with a woman in the equation! My wife wanted only real wood veneer speakers and not too imposing floor standers. Now with our relocation, she is a bit fine with the choice as the speakers won't be in living room and we are in pursuit on wall speakers.

 

[Rethep]

At the end of the day there is nothing wrong with these speakers in general, especially with a tube amp like the Jadis which offset very well the tendency to be a bit bright. But the speakers are certaintly holding back the potential of the amplifier...it is also normal compared the price disproportion existing...

"At the end of the day" sounds to me as "after all" you are quite satisfied. It seems you are quite happy with your speakers. You can even finetune the bass with the supplied bugs, or reposition them. To me it is not clear what you are missing/not satisfied with.

Considering the money, it is not strange to have an amp that is more expensive then the speakers. To be "interested" in speakers costing 11.000 (11x your RX6's) "sounds" a bit unrealistic to me. In the end there are always better things of course.

 

[acalex]

At the end of the day there is nothing wrong with these speakers in general, especially with a tube amp like the Jadis which offset very well the tendency to be a bit bright. But the speakers are certaintly holding back the potential of the amplifier...it is also normal compared the price disproportion existing...

"At the end of the day" sounds to me as "after all" you are quite satisfied. It seems you are quite happy with your speakers. You can even finetune the bass with the supplied bugs, or reposition them. To me it is not clear what you are missing/not satisfied with.

Considering the money, it is not strange to have an amp that is more expensive then the speakers. To be "interested" in speakers costing 11.000 (11x your RX6's) "sounds" a bit unrealistic to me. In the end there are always better things of course.

I am satisfied of those speakers considering the price I paid for them. Now that I upgraded my amp I don't feel living with those speakers anymore as they are holding back the performances of the amplifier I bought.

When I heard my current amplifier connected to Sonus Faber Guarneri was just everything different, more musical more clarity, more enjoyment, better vocals...everything was much better and I can't stand anymore listening to these speakers when I heard what the amp is capable of when properly connected. Don't understand to be honest what it sounds unrealistic...

 

[Rethep]

Don't get me wrong, i am not trying to hold you back from spending so much money, as the economy can use it. But in my opinion you can have very good speakers, if not so exotic in looks and price, which give you much more value for the money. You already have some!

I am curious what, at first, made you listen to the other speakers (in the shop ?) connected to your amp. If it was in the shop, also consider that the acoustics of the listening room are the major factor that they sounded so well. My speakers have never sounded any better than in the hifishop because the room was so big for ideal placement and bass-sound.

With my new amp (1,5 years now) i had to really get used to the valve-sound, and only since a few months (and some speakeradjustments) i can really appreciate its real qualities. What i mean is: did you take enough time to listen to your current system ? Tried different toe-in, repositioning of your speakers ? I can't believe that you are (so quickly ?) unsatisfied with your speakers.

Then again i might not have your ears, money, and "greed" for the best sound (which at least saves me a lot of money).