To my ears USB cables do make a difference.

[Symples]

I'll eat a tin of sardines if ANYONE can prove a £4k USB cable 'sounds' better than one at £4

Make it a tin of anchovies

 

[Jasonovich]

The debate continues on another forum.
The original poster is a believer.....but he also begins his post with the word 'So' 😡

Oops! We ran into some problems.

www.hifiwigwam.com

It's kind of like Dejà vu with this thread,
the same, 'data is data blah' or Mr. Grumpy coming out with 'another pointless thread that will just rehash all the old 'discussion' points.
On the pro side, "better" cables, less data gets corrupted, so the error detection and fixup mechanisms don't have to work so hard?
I feel like saying move along nothing to see here but this would not be in spirit of the thread, particularly as I started it!

 

[Dom]

It's kind of like Dejà vu with this thread,
the same, 'data is data blah' or Mr. Grumpy coming out with 'another pointless thread that will just rehash all the old 'discussion' points.
On the pro side, "better" cables, less data gets corrupted, so the error detection and fixup mechanisms don't have to work so hard?
I feel like saying move along nothing to see but this would not be in spirit of the thread, particularly as I started it!

Even if there were data errors, wouldn't there be audio pop's, skip's and jump's not less warm sounding music. This is ridiculous isn't it.

Data errors are measured in ppm and music data isn't bandwidth intensive so actual data error wouldn't be much.

This is a silly thread that needs to die...

 

[podknocker]

It AMAZES me that some people think the cable knows what the information its carrying represents.

You've been brainwashed by the marketing guff and don't understand physics. Utter nonsense.

And yes, let this 'bit of copper in a black PVC jacket sounds better cos it's 4 grand' thread die!

 

[Friesiansam]

On the pro side, "better" cables, less data gets corrupted, so the error detection and fixup mechanisms don't have to work so hard?

If USB were as error prone, when using low cost cables, as some manufacturers and their shills, would have us believe, the original USB standard and, the later versions thereof, would never have been approved, as they would be completely useless for carrying any data, regardless of what the ones and zeros represent.

 

[rainsoothe]

Somebody on this forum years ago stated that all solid state amplifiers, when level matched, were indistinguishable in a blind test.

I believe has was an ex hi-fi dealer of nearly 30 years experience.

There is even a test / challenge, with a huge money prize, for anybody that can actually do this.

As far as i'm aware nobody has taken up this offer...

Actually, as far as i know, several people took up the challenge, but he dismissed the results for one reason or another so they didn't have to pay up.

 

[Gray]

Actually, as far as i know, several people took up the challenge

I bet they did.
Based on my own direct comparisons of (Arcam, Roksan and Cyrus) amps, I'd have been amazed if anybody couldn't tell them apart.
(And I mean anyone - not just the golden-eared).

 

[James105]

Somebody on this forum years ago stated that all solid state amplifiers, when level matched, were indistinguishable in a blind test.

I believe has was an ex hi-fi dealer of nearly 30 years experience.

There is even a test / challenge, with a huge money prize, for anybody that can actually do this.

As far as i'm aware nobody has taken up this offer...

I believe this is or at least was Alan Shaws opinion also.

 

[James105]

Everything made uses measurements.

Bill

Everything made uses measurements.

Bill

I maybe mis remembering but I'm sure I once read "we designed it, built it, measured it, changed some components and measured it again. But we never listened to it" it was either quad or niam about an amplifier.

 

[Dom]

I believe this is or at least was Alan Shaws opinion also.

To be fair you want your amplifier to sound the same don't you.

 

[James105]

To be fair you want your amplifier to sound the same don't you.

To be fair you used to want "a straight wire with gain", these days I think you want enough power to suit your speakers and a good/excellent room correction s/ware, EQ built in.

 

[Deleted member 201267]

To be fair you used to want "a straight wire with gain", these days I think you want enough power to suit your speakers and a good/excellent room correction s/ware, EQ built in.

Active speakers ?

 

[James105]

Active speakers ?

Single Bluesound pulse minis? I think they are active rather than powered but single units.

I did think of actives last year but I was able to ebay my preferred system for less than the dali actives, which would have been my starting point.

Otherwise I'm kinda locked into the traditional boxes

 

[AJM1981]

I agree with this. People who say they hear a difference should be able to reliably and repeatedly show this, during blind listening tests. The 'believers' should also be able to offer a scientific explanation for this difference, so we can form a scientific consensus, to then prove how a cable can make things sound better.

They can't offer this explanation currently and I have seen no consistent reports of a cable making a difference, nor anyone showing this phenomenon to be real. I'll remain sceptical until a forum, a person, or shop can show me a cable which guarantees to make my system sound better and explain how.

To add a nice fact to the discussion. There is no measurable difference between a random metal nail and a golden binding post screw.

And given that above applies to both amp and loudspeaker, it doesn't make any sense believing the cable applies any form of magic in between those points.

 

[Deleted member 201267]

I bet they did.
Based on my own direct comparisons of (Arcam, Roksan and Cyrus) amps, I'd have been amazed if anybody couldn't tell them apart.
(And I mean anyone - not just the golden-eared).

But could they name which actual Amp they were listening too ?

Also can these differences be measured or only heard ?

For example I believe there is no measurement to indicate, "better instrument separation", which is often described via a listening test to indicate an improvement.

 

[podknocker]

To add a nice fact to the discussion. There is no measurable difference between a random metal nail and a golden binding post screw.

And given that above applies to both amp and loudspeaker, it doesn't make any sense believing the cable applies any form of magic in between those points.

Exactly. What's the point in fancy cables, when other cabling (mains, internal components, crossovers, voice coils), don't have the same materials? It is incredible that people become fixated with this stuff. The electrons moving charge along a cheap cable are identical to those in an expensive one. These electrons don't 'see' the fancy cable and don't fall for the marketing nonsense. I send my data over WIFI to my laptop, then bluetooth to the Audiolab Omnia and it sounds great. The only cables I have are mains and speaker cables. It's the quality of the data being carried that makes the difference and not what's carrying it.

 

[abacus]

But could they name which actual Amp they were listening too ?

Also can these differences be measured or only heard ?

For example I believe there is no measurement to indicate, "better instrument separation", which is often described via a listening test to indicate an improvement.

All amplifiers measure differently, the art is to understand what measurements are needed to identify the differences. (As all speakers are different this also has to be taken into account)
Not sure where but I remember somebody said you cant make a transistor amp sound like a tube amp, an amp designer went away and measured the Tube amp, he then modified the transistor amp so it measured exactly like the tube amp and returned to the owner of the Tube amp who did a comparison, he could not tell which was which. (No matter what anybody says, if you can hear a difference it can be measured, there is no magic)

Bill

 

[Gray]

But could they name which actual Amp they were listening too ?

Also can these differences be measured or only heard ?

For example I believe there is no measurement to indicate, "better instrument separation", which is often described via a listening test to indicate an improvement.

Well, I can only speak for myself with the 3 particular amps I compared - (all identically priced, very similar powered, best buys).

To be clear, we're not talking about subtleties like instrument separation - but unmissable differences in performance, in particular the energy (or lack of).

Once I'd heard all 3, I reckon I could quite easily have blindly identified which I was listening to - I think anyone could have.
In fact, such was the difference, my buying choice was a 'no brainer' and I bought one of them.

One thing you can be pretty sure of, is that if there is an actual audible difference between two items, then something can be measured.
Even something subtle like soundstage. As long as you're not imagining it - if it's real - there may only be a miniscule millisecond(s) difference between each speaker's output, giving your brain the spacial cues it needs, but it will be measurable.

 

[Gray]

(No matter what anybody says, if you can hear a difference it can be measured, there is no magic)

That's the message - when a difference is real and not imagined.

 

[Gray]

There is no measurable difference between a random metal nail and a golden binding post screw.

Until, unlike the gold post, the nail tarnishes / corrodes.
(Proper gold contacts are not a gimmick).

 

[Friesiansam]

Until, unlike the gold post, the nail tarnishes / corrodes.
(Proper gold contacts are not a gimmick).

Which is why. I spent 20 quid on a USB cable, for my headphone amp.

 

[Deleted member 201267]

All amplifiers measure differently, the art is to understand what measurements are needed to identify the differences. (As all speakers are different this also has to be taken into account)
Not sure where but I remember somebody said you cant make a transistor amp sound like a tube amp, an amp designer went away and measured the Tube amp, he then modified the transistor amp so it measured exactly like the tube amp and returned to the owner of the Tube amp who did a comparison, he could not tell which was which. (No matter what anybody says, if you can hear a difference it can be measured, there is no magic)

Bill

So there is a measurement for everything we can hear making listening tests obsolete.

 

[AJM1981]

Until, unlike the gold post, the nail tarnishes / corrodes.
(Proper gold contacts are not a gimmick).

AIso true. Though when stuff corrodes in an average living- or bedroom it would probably not be the most ideal place to put hi-fi in.

But yes, they exist. I'm picturing the moldy "basement living" I once visited abroad when searching for a home (found way better luckily).

 

[Friesiansam]

So there is a measurement for everything we can hear making listening tests obsolete.

On the other hand you could say, who cares about measurements, it's what it sounds like, to your ears and in your room, that matters.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

We're now a long way off topic, so please stick to it and start another thread for different things.

Or ideally let this one die the death, as the OP has suggested would be desirable...