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This is the Black Ravioli investigation thread, it may be fun...

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A

Anonymous

Guest
John Duncan said:
steve_1979 said:
Ok. I've been to my local hifi store today and listened to two different amps (one was a valve amp and the other was a solid state amp) ...
You should get a new dealer if they're peddling that audiophool sh-t...
You're right there! ;)

Nul point, since I'm sure I'm not on the list. Just checked all the previous posts, "Monster, Monster, Monster..."

-N-
 

steve_1979

Well-known member
Jul 14, 2010
231
7
18,795
simonlewis said:
i'm quite surprised to see how rude some people can be.
Why is there always so much rudeness in hifi forums?

I've also used astronomy forums and overclocking forums in the past and you rarely get the amount of rudeness there like you do in hifi forums. Even when people disagree about a subject they're able to have a debate in a mature and constructive manner without resorting to insults.
 

Exshopguy

New member
May 17, 2012
0
0
0
steve_1979 said:
simonlewis said:
i'm quite surprised to see how rude some people can be.
Why is there always so much rudeness in hifi forums?

I've also used astronomy forums and overclocking forums in the past and you rarely get the amount of rudeness there like you do in hifi forums. Even when people disagree about a subject they're able to have a debate in a mature and constructive manner without resorting to insults.
I think that rudeness comes in when you're not dealing with absolutes. Because so much in Hi-Fi is subjective it's all down to opinion, so naturally people want theirs to be right and become more vocal about it. Same as religion really. There seem to be a few topics which always get people riled up!

As I said earlier in the thread though: When companies make amazing claims they should be able to back them up with some kind of evidence if they expect to be taken seriously, so far cable companies and lots of these tweaky improvement types seem to be unable to do so, hence the heated debates about them here.
 

fr0g

New member
Jan 7, 2008
445
0
0
Exshopguy said:
steve_1979 said:
simonlewis said:
i'm quite surprised to see how rude some people can be.
Why is there always so much rudeness in hifi forums?

I've also used astronomy forums and overclocking forums in the past and you rarely get the amount of rudeness there like you do in hifi forums. Even when people disagree about a subject they're able to have a debate in a mature and constructive manner without resorting to insults.
I think that rudeness comes in when you're not dealing with absolutes. Because so much in Hi-Fi is subjective it's all down to opinion, so naturally people want theirs to be right and become more vocal about it. Same as religion really. There seem to be a few topics which always get people riled up!

As I said earlier in the thread though: When companies make amazing claims they should be able to back them up with some kind of evidence if they expect to be taken seriously, so far cable companies and lots of these tweaky improvement types seem to be unable to do so, hence the heated debates about them here.
Exactly. There's the devoted (believe in black ravioli, expensive cables, general foo) and the atheists (don't)

They don't mix well. Hi-fi is a religion for many seeing as how much faith over sense goes on.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
The instructions for Black ravioli do state that the pads should be placed directly on the chassis rather than the feet. They are also fairly specifc about where abouts on he chassis is the optimum position.

Whatever kind of damping they do or do not do, I heard a positive difference with my ears and my system. Your mileage may vary.

Like so much in hifi, the degree of how much improvement can be subtle or pronounced, or maybe it just isnt there for some.

When I heard about the buzz for BR, I could not demo it so I read around it on various hi-fi forums.

A common theme emerged.... those saying it could not possibly help, those wondering what the product is made of, those talking about psychoacoustics... and those who had tried it and mostly found positive results (whether psychoacoustic or not).

On that basis, I said, what the hell, lets get some in and ordered some. I liked what I heard, and so I am a believer.

At some point in the next month or two, I will be changing my hi fi rack. When that happens, I intend to do a bit more testing of the BR during the swap out. Until then, I am one of those rare birds that is currently happy with my setup!
 

Paul.

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2010
736
50
18,970
fr0g said:
Exshopguy said:
steve_1979 said:
simonlewis said:
i'm quite surprised to see how rude some people can be.
Why is there always so much rudeness in hifi forums?

I've also used astronomy forums and overclocking forums in the past and you rarely get the amount of rudeness there like you do in hifi forums. Even when people disagree about a subject they're able to have a debate in a mature and constructive manner without resorting to insults.
I think that rudeness comes in when you're not dealing with absolutes. Because so much in Hi-Fi is subjective it's all down to opinion, so naturally people want theirs to be right and become more vocal about it. Same as religion really. There seem to be a few topics which always get people riled up!

As I said earlier in the thread though: When companies make amazing claims they should be able to back them up with some kind of evidence if they expect to be taken seriously, so far cable companies and lots of these tweaky improvement types seem to be unable to do so, hence the heated debates about them here.
Exactly. There's the devoted (believe in black ravioli, expensive cables, general foo) and the atheists (don't)

They don't mix well. Hi-fi is a religion for many seeing as how much faith over sense goes on.
I think you will find 90% of us are in the middle, ranging from 'meh' to 'ooh shiny'. There is a minority who participate in these circular threads, probably best if you don't tar us all in one of two camps.
 

The_Lhc

New member
Oct 16, 2008
1,175
1
0
steve_1979 said:
simonlewis said:
i'm quite surprised to see how rude some people can be.
Why is there always so much rudeness in hifi forums?
Because it's on the internet. It's got nothing to do with Hifi. Worst forum I ever participated in was a golf forum (one run by a magazine as well), that was extraordinary, makes this place look like tea with the Queen...
 

fr0g

New member
Jan 7, 2008
445
0
0
Paul Hobbs said:
fr0g said:
Exshopguy said:
steve_1979 said:
simonlewis said:
i'm quite surprised to see how rude some people can be.
Why is there always so much rudeness in hifi forums?

I've also used astronomy forums and overclocking forums in the past and you rarely get the amount of rudeness there like you do in hifi forums. Even when people disagree about a subject they're able to have a debate in a mature and constructive manner without resorting to insults.
I think that rudeness comes in when you're not dealing with absolutes. Because so much in Hi-Fi is subjective it's all down to opinion, so naturally people want theirs to be right and become more vocal about it. Same as religion really. There seem to be a few topics which always get people riled up!

As I said earlier in the thread though: When companies make amazing claims they should be able to back them up with some kind of evidence if they expect to be taken seriously, so far cable companies and lots of these tweaky improvement types seem to be unable to do so, hence the heated debates about them here.
Exactly. There's the devoted (believe in black ravioli, expensive cables, general foo) and the atheists (don't)

They don't mix well. Hi-fi is a religion for many seeing as how much faith over sense goes on.
I think you will find 90% of us are in the middle, ranging from 'meh' to 'ooh shiny'. There is a minority who participate in these circular threads, probably best if you don't tar us all in one of two camps.
Fair point. I should have been more explicit.
 

Andy Clough

New member
Apr 27, 2004
776
0
0
The_Lhc said:
steve_1979 said:
simonlewis said:
i'm quite surprised to see how rude some people can be.
Why is there always so much rudeness in hifi forums?
Because it's on the internet. It's got nothing to do with Hifi. Worst forum I ever participated in was a golf forum (one run by a magazine as well), that was extraordinary, makes this place look like tea with the Queen...
Well that's something of a relief to hear... ;)
 

The_Lhc

New member
Oct 16, 2008
1,175
1
0
Andy Clough said:
The_Lhc said:
steve_1979 said:
simonlewis said:
i'm quite surprised to see how rude some people can be.
Why is there always so much rudeness in hifi forums?
Because it's on the internet. It's got nothing to do with Hifi. Worst forum I ever participated in was a golf forum (one run by a magazine as well), that was extraordinary, makes this place look like tea with the Queen...
Well that's something of a relief to hear... ;)
Yes it is. Now, I'll have a small drop of milk with one sugar please Your Majesty...
 

ID.

New member
Feb 22, 2010
207
0
0
On the other hand, it is pretty easy to spot from a mile off the threads that are likely to rustle my jimmies. That said, I'm posting in this thread, but fortunately I haven't read most of the posts :dance:
 

ESP2009

New member
Feb 16, 2009
177
0
0
What irks and amuses me by turns is that threads such as this attract so much attention and so many posts, whereas there are some posts by folk genuinely asking for guidance that:-

a) Receive virtually no response/interest

b) Generate threads just like this one

Isn't human nature a complex and wonderful thing? :)

Oh, and +1 vote for 'shiny things'.
 

iceman16

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2011
98
19
18,545
maxflinn said:
iceman16 said:
John Duncan said:
steve_1979 said:
maxflinn said:
How, in the name of God, how, could placing an amplifier on little rubber ravioli, (or whatever they're called) have any impact whatsoever on the sound coming out of the speakers it's driving?
Q. Is it reasonable to assume that small vibrations could effect the performance of electronics?

A. Yes.

There's a reasonable and logical argument that they might make a difference.

Ravioli are very cheap so I'm going to put it to the test myself. My mate has a Marantz PM6003 amplifier with some B&W 685 speakers so I'll do some blind A/B testing using his system later this week.
But...I'd expect it to make no difference at all to a PM6003. A valve amp perhaps, where I could see how it might make a difference to the behaviour of vibration-sensitive tubes.
Hi JD, the BR works well in my system. I'm not sure why and how but they do. In fact I've spend about 2-3weeks placing them in and out of every Naim component I use. The most noticeable improvement is when I put them under cdp,power amp and power supply. The sound just became more vibrant and instruments are more defined. Then I've waited for another week and pulled them out once again and I felt I was hearing another system which was boring and somehow a bit lifeless.
Hi Iceman, I'd just like to address a few points you've made here if I may..

You say the most noticeable improvements you perceive are as a result of placing the BR below your CDP, power amp and power supply. Now these are all very expensive high end componants, made by a company known for their high quality construction, a company that I've read, go to great lengths to achieve very very small improvements.

So conversely, if you notice great improvements while using the BR under these componants, by definition, they are vibrating excessively, is that not fair to say? Now, why would a company like Naim not be able to design these componants so that there is no excessive vibration that you need to counter with the BR? Isn't it highly unlikely that given the resources Naim have, they wouldn't be able to do this? Is that really logical? I don't think so..

And secondly, how can putting BR under an external power supply unit help in any way? It doesn't matter if a power supply is vibrating, not that it would be, but if it was, and the BR helped to curtail that, then how could that result in better sound? There is no correlation between the vibration or lack of, of a power supply, and sound quality, none whatsoever.

So bearing the above in mind, are you of the opinion that the electronics you spent so much money on, are suffering from too much vibration? And if so, and they sound lifeless without the BR, why did you spend all that money on them?

Thanks...
Sorry Max, If "lifeless" is too much exaggerated in describing my system when I took the BR off. Maybe I was used to listen with the BR in place with great result.:)
 

idc

Well-known member
Jan 2, 2008
1,042
13
19,195
nopiano said:
idc said:
nopiano said:
.......

You can guess I subscribe to the "if you haven't heard it..." camp. And besides, Cno is one of only a handful of regulars here whose advice/experience I'd be happy to trust.
".....That some here report a difference and others do not whilst using sighted testing also shows there is nothing inherant in the product which makes a difference. If there really was something the reports would be more towards, I heard a difference and liked/did not like it. That is what you get with the parts of the hifi chain which really do affect sound, like speakers."
I've tried to understand your point here, as you have clearly thought carefully about this. Surely a product that improves (or let's be neutral and simply say 'changes') one set-up but not another isn't fatally flawed because of that?

It could be:-

1. much the same overall sound as the standard item

2. a bit different, but too subtle for that listener

3. quite different and disliked

4. quite different and liked

Only 4 would possibly result in a sale. 3 would mean it did siomething. But 1 and 2 don't mean it is useless. Or is there a 5?

5. Does nothing

Hi-fi gear, being often hard to define in the way it infuences the music we play on it (in much the same way as we can both go to the same gig, recital or concert, and have different reactions) is almost always (in my experience) infuenced by many things you might not expect to make a difference. These include:-

a. What you stand it on

b. What you connect it with

c. How you set it up

d. How warm or damp the room is

e. How long it has been on

f. The time of day

It doesn't surprise me that not everyone hears a difference with a different support or foot (Black Ravoli or wooden cone for that matter). But that surely doesn't prove it does nothing, does it?
IMO what it shows is that the effect of the product is on the listener and how they feel about their hifi. The actual product in itself inherantly makes no difference.

The consistently different results from sighted, blind comparison and ABX testing show that sight, image and product knowldege have a great effect on perception of sound quality.

Hence someone receptive to BR being a means of improving sound quality is going to hear a difference, whereas someone not receptive will not. We have seen that already in this thread with the people who have tried BR.

I think that our brains contain the answer to sound quality differences to a far greater extent than hifi itself, though that varies between some parts of the hifi chain, cables and the likes of Black Ravioli are 100% brain and 0% the way the cable or BR is made to speakers which are 25% brain and 75% the way they are made.
 

paradiziac

New member
Jan 8, 2011
17
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0
So I just had a peak at the corresponding thread on the other forum.

It's not delusional... :wall:

Cables, room treatments, isolation products etc can and do make real differences in sufficiently revealing systems, as countless people have experienced, even those intially sceptical like myself.

Not every product works in every system, or gives a big enough benefit to warrant the cost to the individual, which is why it's always best to try before buying or buy used and sell on. People who do try these products are quite grown up enough to assess the value to themselves without being told that they might be kidding themselves and/or being ripped off by the evil hi-fi industry. They don't need a bunch of vigilantes from HDD forum to save them from themselves.

Why you lot with active speakers even care about such things is beyond me...you have practically nothing to tweak! Your systems are properly designed and therefore perfect. DACs and amps don't matter and your speakers have the best crossovers and the best drivers. So sit back and enjoy the music, as I will do now.

P.S. I just got a new digital cable, whoopee it's great!
 

idc

Well-known member
Jan 2, 2008
1,042
13
19,195
paradiziac said:
So I just had a peak at the corresponding thread on the other forum.

It's not delusional... :wall:

Cables, room treatments, isolation products etc can and do make real differences in sufficiently revealing systems, as countless people have experienced, even those intially sceptical like myself.

Not every product works in every system, or gives a big enough benefit to warrant the cost to the individual, which is why it's always best to try before buying or buy used and sell on. People who do try these products are quite grown up enough to assess the value to themselves without being told that they might be kidding themselves and/or being ripped off by the evil hi-fi industry. They don't need a bunch of vigilantes from HDD forum to save them from themselves.

Why you lot with active speakers even care about such things is beyond me...you have practically nothing to tweak! Your systems are properly designed and therefore perfect. DACs and amps don't matter and your speakers have the best crossovers and the best drivers. So sit back and enjoy the music, as I will do now.

P.S. I just got a new digital cable, whoopee it's great!
The 'my system is more revealing than yours so these products only work for me' claim is a fail for me. Why do cable makers etc not make an equivalent claim? There is no independent testing to back that claim up. Not all supposedly revealing systems find the same differences, such inconsistency suggesting the difference is in the listener and not the kit. Lastly, blind testing of cheap and expensive (lets face it, revealing and not revealing is based on price of component) finds little to no differences, except with speakers.

The 'not every product works in every system' is also a fail for me as you cannot show what is really happening is that not every listener is working in every system. There is a logical fallicy here of that product works in that system and not in that system so suggesting a variable which is believed to be inherent in the system, whilst ignoring the variable of different listeners as a cause.

I dont think the hifi industry is evil and ripping people off. I just think much of it is wrong with their claims as to how to improve sound quality with the likes of cables and BR. I also thing those, particularly with expensive/revealing hifis are in the same camp as the industry and are wrong about their claims as well.

I think the quote about enjoying music in my signature sums up my attitude perfectly. I don't even need to listen to my hifi to enjoy music.
 

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