This is the Black Ravioli investigation thread, it may be fun...

[fr0g]

I get a night and day improvement in the lower frequencies when I isolate my bottom from the sofa with just the right soft brown cushion cushion. So much so I am thinking of going into production with the "Brown b-assmati"

 

[Frank Harvey]

Any graphs to back that up?

 

[fr0g]

Any graphs to back that up?

I'm talking about my dicky guts rather than audio

 

[shafesk]

I get a night and day improvement in the lower frequencies when I isolate my bottom from the sofa with just the right soft brown cushion cushion. So much so I am thinking of going into production with the "Brown b-assmati"

Better copyright b-assmati or I'll beat you to it

 

[CnoEvil]

Hear, hear.

I may have missed it, but apart from Cno I'm not sure anyone else has actually spoken from experience here. (If I forgot on the way to page 12, sorry!)

Not the same as BR, but I've written here before about the old Mission Isoplat, which was a bit of MDF on four hemispherical feet (lke two tennis balls cut in half). At about one-quarter the cost of a popular budget amp of its day (NAD 3020) this item could produce repeatable improvements equivalent to a significant amp upgrade. Accordingly, in my days in a hi-fi shop we sold lots of them. And not a tube amp in sight.

Rather than attempting an explanation of my own, another product range that tackles vibration is here, and their explanation is plausible to me. I've heard these products, and they certainly worked, to my ears http://www.vertexaq.com/products/history-of-product-development

You can guess I subscribe to the "if you haven't heard it..." camp. And besides, Cno is one of only a handful of regulars here whose advice/experience I'd be happy to trust.

Hah.......now I remember why I missed you!

 

[CnoEvil]

Any graphs to back that up?

I'm talking about my dicky guts rather than audio

That would make a more interesting graph (flow chart perhaps!).

 

[ID.]

No experience with Black Ravioli, but I believe isolation, etc. can make a difference, even to amps and DACs, which is why most manufacturers put quite a bit of effort into incorporating such features into the pieces of equipment themselves (well either they're claiming that whilst really doing it because large slabs of machined aluminium look so sexy and solid metal gives a premium feel).

I use these

http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/insulator/index.html

They don't make a huge difference, but it is noticeable and I find it worthwhile (YMMV).

 

[steve_1979]

Ok. I've been to my local hifi store today and listened to two different amps (one was a valve amp and the other was a solid state amp) and when using black ravioli isolation pads I couldn't hear any difference.

This was to be expected with the solid state amp but I wouldn't have been suprised if there had been some improvement with the valve amp but there wasn't. I even tried putting the valve amp on top of the speaker to maximise the amount of vibration it received but even this didn't make any difference to the sound.

So in my opinion Black Ravioli is a total waste of time and money. A small amount of vibration doesn't seem to make any difference to the sound that amplifiers make.

 

[The_Lhc]

How about you ask the shop assistant to whack the amp with a hammer while you're listening? That might make a difference.

 

[steve_1979]

How about you ask the shop assistant to whack the amp with a hammer while you're listening? That might make a difference.

I dare say that would damage a valve amp. The idea is an interesting one though.

If anyone reading this has a solid state amp try giving it a few good firm taps with your knuckles. Do you hear any noise coming out of the speakers or does it effect the sound of playing music in any way?

No?

Well if that doesn't make any difference then a tiny bit of vibration shouldn't effect it either. :?

 

[BenLaw]

If anyone reading this has a solid state amp try giving it a few good firm taps with your knuckles.

You definitely would not be in the sweet spot if you were doing that.

 

[John Duncan]

Ok. I've been to my local hifi store today and listened to two different amps (one was a valve amp and the other was a solid state amp) and when using black ravioli isolation pads I couldn't hear any difference.

This was to be expected with the solid state amp but I wouldn't have been suprised if there had been some improvement with the valve amp but there wasn't. I even tried putting the valve amp on top of the speaker to maximise the amount of vibration it received but even this didn't make any difference to the sound.

So in my opinion Black Ravioli is a total waste of time and money. A small amount of vibration doesn't seem to make any difference to the sound that amplifiers make.

You should get a new dealer if they're peddling that audiophool sh-t...

 

[BenLaw]

OOI what were the amps, the rest of the system, music used, length of test? Had you listened to the systems previously?

 

[The_Lhc]

How about you ask the shop assistant to whack the amp with a hammer while you're listening? That might make a difference.

I dare say that would damage a valve amp. The idea is an interesting one though.

....

....

.

 

[Exshopguy]

The onus on proof should be on the manufacturer to be able to back up their claims, not on the public to "buy it and try it". In this case Steve_1979 has found no difference and he's the one being questioned about the validity of his findings, even if in the usual wind-up spirit as seems common here. I swear some Hi-Fi enthusiasts are just desperate to throw their money at something.

 

[Bodfish]

Ok. I've been to my local hifi store today and listened to two different amps (one was a valve amp and the other was a solid state amp) and when using black ravioli isolation pads I couldn't hear any difference.

This was to be expected with the solid state amp but I wouldn't have been suprised if there had been some improvement with the valve amp but there wasn't. I even tried putting the valve amp on top of the speaker to maximise the amount of vibration it received but even this didn't make any difference to the sound.

So in my opinion Black Ravioli is a total waste of time and money. A small amount of vibration doesn't seem to make any difference to the sound that amplifiers make.

It's good to hear you've taken the time to listen for yourself Steve. Can I ask which dealer you used? I am interested to hear (or not!) what this product does but would have to go the mail order route as there don't appear to be any physical stockists near me.

 

[John Duncan]

he's the one being questioned about the validity of his findings

I'm not questioning the validity of his findings at all. Firstly, they're kind of what I personally would expect and secondly, they're his findings and as such are valid and useful to him, which is really all that matters. He has saved himself some money.

I do have one - serious - question though; if you expect to hear no difference, are you more likely to hear no difference?

 

[Bodfish]

I do have one - serious - question though; if you expect to hear no difference, are you more likely to hear no difference?

That is a good question. I very nearly put something in my last response about this 'expectation bias' thingy (I should clearly learn to be more direct).

I once purchased a replacement interconnect to go between a DAC and pre-amp. I *should* have been predisposed to hear differences (more money, fancy packaging, glowing reviews etc) and I did indeed hear differences - but for the worse. I sent the cable back and got my money back.

Like I said, I am pleased that Steve actually bothered to go and listen at all. I think I will take a mail order punt myself and see what's what.

 

[Exshopguy]

he's the one being questioned about the validity of his findings

I'm not questioning the validity of his findings at all. Firstly, they're kind of what I personally would expect and secondly, they're his findings and as such are valid and useful to him, which is really all that matters. He has saved himself some money.

I do have one - serious - question though; if you expect to hear no difference, are you more likely to hear no difference?

As much as expecting to hear a difference results in hearing a difference I guess, but then we're back to blind testing being the obvious solution which many consider flawed for some reason. Personally I feel that's the best route to go if wanting to back up what you think you hear.

 

[relocated]

JD said,' I do have one - serious - question though; if you expect to hear no difference, are you more likely to hear no difference?

Indeed you are, just like the reverse which is normally jumped on by people of a certain persuasion.

Still he did give it a go and therefor can't be criticised for condemning a product without experience of it, unlike far too many other people.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

if you expect to hear no difference, are you more likely to hear no difference?

I guess expectation bias works both ways.

but that's why a few posts before I wrote that if this ravioli is supposed to work as claimed manufacturer should easily capture and measure those "bad vibrations" he refers to and could easily prove beneficial impact of his product on the equipment by lowering or even eliminating those vibrations. AFAIK, no such thing is mentioned on ravioli web site. no mentioning of any measurements and comparatives, save for references from reviewers.

 

[idc]

.......

You can guess I subscribe to the "if you haven't heard it..." camp. And besides, Cno is one of only a handful of regulars here whose advice/experience I'd be happy to trust.

The 'you don't know man, you weren't there' argument of personal experience is a claim that only you can know if a product will work or not. That strongly suggests that there is nothing inherent in the product that can cause the differences heard. So it is weak basis on which to buy something, unless you have the intial outlay and can return it without quibble.

That some here report a difference and others do not whilst using sighted testing also shows there is nothing inherant in the product which makes a difference. If there really was something the reports would be more towards, I heard a difference and liked/did not like it. That is what you get with the parts of the hifi chain which really do affect sound, like speakers.

Black Ravioli also fails to get itself scientifically examined in anyway. I am quite sure that would be a matter of setting up a hifi, measuring vibration, then putting BR under the various parts and measuring vibration again. Now comes the very hard missing link that pretty much all audiophile product makers ignore, evidence to show a causal link to differences in sound quality.

If you buy BR based on the maker's claims you are buying a hypothesis only.

 

[paradiziac]

JD said,' I do have one - serious - question though; if you expect to hear no difference, are you more likely to hear no difference?

Indeed you are, just like the reverse which is normally jumped on by people of a certain persuasion.

Still he did give it a go and therefor can't be criticised for condemning a product without experience of it, unlike far too many other people.

So how did the dealer react when you told him you couldn't hear a difference?

Presumably he sells the product because he's a believer and set the demo up in a system where he's heard a difference?

 

[paradiziac]

P.S. hope you used a hi-end source, good quality cabling and clean mains in the demo

Not that any of these things matter, of course, just as a control to eliminate the possibility that a tiny improvement wasn't masked by other factors.

 

[CnoEvil]

So in my opinion Black Ravioli is a total waste of time and money. A small amount of vibration doesn't seem to make any difference to the sound that amplifiers make.

Good for you for trying it, and if you could humour me, I do have a few questions :

- Was the Ravioli placed under the feet or the chassis?

- Which Ravioli did you listen to (ie. Original; Double; Big Feet etc)?

- Did you place it in three or four places, and did you try to put in under the power supply, and towards the outside?

- Was anyone from the shop with you, and were they of the same opinion......did they have an explanation as to why you heard no difference?

- Did you try it under the source?

- What was the system you tried it in, how long did you listen and were you familiar with the system/music played.

I'm sorry of the interrogation, but since every time I've tried it, I have got a change.....usually for the better, but not always. The company usually recommend starting at the source and working forward to assess the improvement.....though saying that, I would have expected you to have heard a change of some sort. I take it that the dealer themselves have a favorable view of it.

Anyway, thank you for reporting in and putting the opposing view (having tried it).

Cno