The new AVI ADM5 active loudspeakers.

[Ajani]

I've generally found manufacturers' forums to be the last place to expect censor free discussion. I remember the beating myself and some other persons took on the Emotiva forum for complaining about the poor volume implementation on a DAC. The fanboys acted as if we had insulted their mothers, by daring to suggest that Emotiva had made a mistake with the volume control.

Another thing I find really strange (Just to be clear: I'm not talking about you DM) is that so many fanboys will completely trust the opinion of a manufacturer, yet will claim that HiFi mags can't be trusted because they rely on advertising revenue. So they don't trust HiFi mags because they think the mags are "puppets" of manufacturers, but they trust manufacturers... Huh? :wall:

I believe that beyond fanboy, you have the term sycophant, albeit I am lead to believe the two terms sometimes go hand in hand as well.

Often when Hifi enthusiasts struggle to gain knowledge as to how to build or upgrade a system, they grasp the notion handed to them by a salesman that is simple, easy to understand, and appears to work well for them. PRaT as a sales tool from the Linn/Naim era was an excellent example of this.

They then seem to go through a stage of becomming fanboys over a particular brand or marketing term, and oddly seem very prepared to abdicate all further thought into critical aspects of HiFi reproduction, as the simple, easy to understand brand or marketing mantra, works for them, and they cling to it as an evangelist clings to his religous beliefs. Indeed, any further discourse to investigate or critique the brand or marketing term, is repelled with vehement, but often not very logical or factual argument.

However, any discourse from the salesman, or brand spokesman that reinforces the individual and group membership view is treated as Mana from Heaven, and is immediately assmilated into the now group held view with almost blind allegiance.

To my mind, this is where one can loosely term certain HiFi philosophies (such as the now largely discreditied PRaT marketing term) as having a semi faith belief, or religous aspect amongst its adherents - almost like a cult of sorts. The same thing applies to extreme brand fanboys - they become like religious faith believers about a brand and/or it's HiFi philosophy, and indeed as argument and dissent is largely frowned upon by the majority group view, many individual group members become either willing or unwilling sycophants, either too lacking in knowledge to take on the group held view, or leader, and perhaps for that reason, or just insecurity about their level of HiFi knowledge and ability to challenge, bow to the group and leader pressure to conform.

Whatever the psychological behavioural basis behind it, certainly that's been my observation and thoughts of how single brand forums tend to operate.

JB

Contrary to other poster I think you hit the nail on the head.

However, I would add that to get the kind of evangelical following that some brands, such as Naim, AVI, Audio Note & Emotiva, have achieved you have to start with some good and fairly unique products. So persons who try the brand's products and are impressed, become devote followers and believe the brand can do no wrong. "I love my ADM9, therefore the ADM5 must be brilliant and better than any small passive or active monitors on the market. No need for me to even try it msyself, because AVI wouldn't produce it unless it was the greatest." So persons who suggest that you actually wait until you hear the product, before compiling a list of all the speakers it blows out of the water, are seen as heretics.

 

[Phileas]

They then seem to go through a stage of becomming fanboys over a particular brand or marketing term, and oddly seem very prepared to abdicate all further thought into critical aspects of HiFi reproduction, as the simple, easy to understand brand or marketing mantra, works for them, and they cling to it as an evangelist clings to his religous beliefs. Indeed, any further discourse to investigate or critique the brand or marketing term, is repelled with vehement, but often not very logical or factual argument.

JB

How would you characterise your feelings with regard to B&O? To me, you seem to fit the above description quite well.

 

[chebby]

They then seem to go through a stage of becomming fanboys over a particular brand or marketing term, and oddly seem very prepared to abdicate all further thought into critical aspects of HiFi reproduction, as the simple, easy to understand brand or marketing mantra, works for them, and they cling to it as an evangelist clings to his religous beliefs. Indeed, any further discourse to investigate or critique the brand or marketing term, is repelled with vehement, but often not very logical or factual argument.

JB

How would you characterise your feelings with regard to B&O? To me, you seem to fit the above description quite well.

B&O doesn't have a Julian Vereker, Ivor Tiefenbrun, Ashley James or Steve Jobs to rally round. No 'charismatic' fount of wisdom nor someone to bestow blessings (or vitriol) on industry peers. ('Apple good, Naim bad' or whatever.)

It's not quite the same thing when the identity of a company is so bound up in it's technology and design and engineering and research rather than the character and utterances of a single spokesman.

An exception might be Roy Gandy of Rega who is inextricably identified with his company. But - with the exception of an occasional (actually very rare) interview - he never courts support, or inhabits web forums, and has never (to my knowledge) shown any disrespect to his industry peers or disparaged the products of other companies. (Rega doesn't even advertise and only started attending hi-fi shows very recently in their history.)

Despite this carefully cultured 'stealth' approach to marketing, their virtual silence in the world of British hi-fi has been deafening for 40 years!

If only others had learnt the same lesson.

 

[drummerman]

Contrary to other poster I think you hit the nail on the head.

However, I would add that to get the kind of evangelical following that some brands, such as Naim, AVI, Audio Note & Emotiva, have achieved you have to start with some good and fairly unique products. So persons who try the brand's products and are impressed, become devote followers and believe the brand can do no wrong. "I love my ADM9, therefore the ADM5 must be brilliant and better than any small passive or active monitors on the market. No need for me to even try it msyself, because AVI wouldn't produce it unless it was the greatest." So persons who suggest that you actually wait until you hear the product, before compiling a list of all the speakers it blows out of the water, are seen as heretics.

Yes, I found that certainly very strange.

Perhaps it has something to do with belonging ... belonging to a closed herd, clan etc., Maybe even a lack of sense of identity or self worth, a feeling and urge to express themselves in unity ... safety in numbers (I am joking)

Still, this kind of blind following I will never understand but then I'm probably the least brand loyal kind of customer.

regards

 

[altruistic.lemon]

DM, you are not of the faith. Believe, and there will be redemption.

 

[richardw42]

Got around to watching WWDC13 today.

Now that is something.

And a lesson to only use stats in your favour.

 

[drummerman]

DM, you are not of the faith. Believe, and there will be redemption.

Oh I believe in Marts ability as an electronic engineer of the highest grade. He/They had numerous products which back that up.

On that basis, there is every chance that the ADM5's will be very good. - What I have a problem with, as you do, is this unbelievable hype.

Whatever, it is the way AVI choose to do their marketing and I appreciate that HDD is the locomotive pulling the whole thing.

I just have a problem sitting on my mouth when I hear some of the things that are being said but then nobody tells me to participate and thats why I have taken a break over there again.

I do wish them all the best with their new product though.

regards

 

[chebby]

...I appreciate that HDD is the locomotive pulling the whole thing.

I can't see that being true. It doesn't have enough 'clout' as a website to get itself found. You have to know it's there to find it.

'Leveraging'* much bigger, more popular and more populated websites/fora (like this one) provides far more exposure.

*Sorry.

 

[John Duncan]

I do wish them all the best with their new product though.

So do I. I just wish they'd quit with the bl-locks and let the product stand on its own merits (actual, rather than imagined).

 

[fr0g]

Contrary to other poster I think you hit the nail on the head.

However, I would add that to get the kind of evangelical following that some brands, such as Naim, AVI, Audio Note & Emotiva, have achieved you have to start with some good and fairly unique products. So persons who try the brand's products and are impressed, become devote followers and believe the brand can do no wrong. "I love my ADM9, therefore the ADM5 must be brilliant and better than any small passive or active monitors on the market. No need for me to even try it msyself, because AVI wouldn't produce it unless it was the greatest." So persons who suggest that you actually wait until you hear the product, before compiling a list of all the speakers it blows out of the water, are seen as heretics.

Yes, I found that certainly very strange.

Perhaps it has something to do with belonging ... belonging to a closed herd, clan etc., Maybe even a lack of sense of identity or self worth, a feeling and urge to express themselves in unity ... safety in numbers (I am joking)

Still, this kind of blind following I will never understand but then I'm probably the least brand loyal kind of customer.

regards

I'm with you.

Love my ADMs. My next purchase won't be based on hype or indeed hyperbole (of the kind being drummed up right now).

Maybe I will get some 40s in the future, maybe some 5s.

Or maybe I'll get some Genelecs.

Probably won't go back to passives though.

 

[atticus]

I'm not sure whether this a good time to say that I heard the new ADM5's today....

I didn't go to auction them, so was unprepared and 'unprimed'; I should point out that no ABX-ing was done, no favourite tracks had been lovingly or carefully compiled and one of the speakers was half-hidden behind an armchair. I certainly wasn't sat in the 'sweet spot'.

Listened to Oscar Peterson (Route 66), Antoni Ros-Marba's version of Beethoven's Violin Concerto in D Major and 'Emphasizing Enharmonic Particles' by Brian Eno (guaranteed to stretch ANY speaker!)

They were DAC'd with an Airport Express and on about the third track I said 'of course you're using the Sub?', and was told 'No'.

They're very bloody good indeed and around about the size of my old Dynaudio 40's. But with way, WAY better sound.

 

[drummerman]

Good, at least someone has heard them now.

regards

 

[chebby]

I'm not sure whether this a good time to say that I heard the new ADM5's today....

I didn't go to auction them, so was unprepared and 'unprimed'; I should point out that no ABX-ing was done, no favourite tracks had been lovingly or carefully compiled and one of the speakers was half-hidden behind an armchair. I certainly wasn't sat in the 'sweet spot'.

Listened to Oscar Peterson (Route 66), Antoni Ros-Marba's version of Beethoven's Violin Concerto in D Major and 'Emphasizing Enharmonic Particles' by Brian Eno (guaranteed to stretch ANY speaker!)

They were DAC'd with an Airport Express and on about the third track I said 'of course you're using the Sub?', and was told 'No'.

They're very bloody good indeed and around about the size of my old Dynaudio 40's. But with way, WAY better sound.

You know that we can't be really sure unless your wife (or girlfriend)* walked in from the kitchen and said something like... "that sounds so amazing I dropped the iron on the cat" ?

*YPMV (Your partner may vary.)

 

[AEJim]

You know that we can't be really sure unless your wife (or girlfriend)* walked in from the kitchen and said something like... "that sounds so amazing I dropped the iron on the cat" ?

*YPMV (Your partner may vary.)

Come on now Chebby, you know that only works for changes of cable!

 

[John Duncan]

You know that we can't be really sure unless your wife (or girlfriend)* walked in from the kitchen and said something like... "that sounds so amazing I dropped the iron on the cat" ?

*YPMV (Your partner may vary.)

Come on now Chebby, you know that only works for changes of cable!

Mrs JD only ever walks in and says 'what is this ****?'

 

[the record spot]

They then seem to go through a stage of becomming fanboys over a particular brand or marketing term, and oddly seem very prepared to abdicate all further thought into critical aspects of HiFi reproduction, as the simple, easy to understand brand or marketing mantra, works for them, and they cling to it as an evangelist clings to his religous beliefs. Indeed, any further discourse to investigate or critique the brand or marketing term, is repelled with vehement, but often not very logical or factual argument.

JB

How would you characterise your feelings with regard to B&O? To me, you seem to fit the above description quite well.

On the contrary; much of what JB has written in recent weeks has made clear reference to acceptance and recognition that there are other ways to enjoy audio. This appears to have been done in good faith, without belittling anyone, including this site, the members and staff on it or other companies.

Seems a pretty clear distinction to my understanding.

 

[the record spot]

Interesting to hear. I've read the AVI version of events, but there's always two sides to everything, so it's very interesting to hear the other side so to speak.

Illuminating in fact.

JB

Plenty of examples over here JB. The thing is, most people on here recognise that AVI turn out good products. There's no question of that, or of the principle of how good actives are, there's no "running scared" here are some seem to think.

The behaviour however of some either closely related to AVI or owners of some of the company's products is clearly open to question. That's either denigrating other companies products', hyping up AVI's own ("smoke the competition"), a ready regurgitating of the term "science" that's trumpeted but without really understanding its application in speaker development. While all of that is there, what's missing is respect. Different opinions can and should be heard, but pontificating appears to be the only way for some. Better it stays on that forum than infect this one.

 

[plastic penguin]

I don't get why there's so much animosity between some traditional passive owners and certain individuals from the active 'camp'. Likewise, I've noticed people who have changed to actives become very hostile, claiming that actives are the dogs and most passive speakers are rank (my terminology).

Surely active and passive set-ups share the same goal: To produce music.

I find it pretty sad.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Thing is, owners of ATC Actives, Dynaudio, Adam Audio, Linn etc don't feel the need to react anything but positively when they comment, nor do they feel the need to market their chosen product so aggressively.

The animosity is solely related to owners of one particular brand, and that's partly because they feel themselves different and better, rebels in the terms of HiFi, and have seen through the smoke and mirrors etc, plus they can converse regularly with their God. It's no accident they belong to the same forum, either - if you look, you can see credulity running rampant over there. They're quick to forget to - digital amps were pitiful, until, of course, they appeared in a new speaker. Now they're wonderful. It really does seem more like a religious sect than a HiFi forum.

The weird thing is these people don't use vinyl or high res sources either, many apparently being happy with spotify and 320k, believing the words of the Master about how good it is. In some ways it is the antithesis of HiFi. To belong to the cult is to accept without thinking too hard.

 

[the record spot]

Thing is, owners of ATC Actives, Dynaudio, Adam Audio, Linn etc don't feel the need to react anything but positively when they comment, nor do they feel the need to market their chosen product so aggressively.

The animosity is solely related to owners of one particular brand, and that's partly because they feel themselves different and better, rebels in the terms of HiFi, and have seen through the smoke and mirrors etc, plus they can converse regularly with their God. It's no accident they belong to the same forum, either - if you look, you can see credulity running rampant over there. They're quick to forget to - digital amps were pitiful, until, of course, they appeared in a new speaker. Now they're wonderful. It really does seem more like a religious sect than a HiFi forum.

The weird thing is these people don't use vinyl or high res sources either, many apparently being happy with spotify and 320k, believing the words of the Master about how good it is. In some ways it is the antithesis of HiFi. To belong to the cult is to accept without thinking too hard.

AL, I ditched vinyl a couple of years ago and haven't looked back. I use Spotify, have an external hard disk drive that is crammed with a mix of different bitrates as well as WAVs. I use and access music as well as movies from a variety of sources. I don't believe that vinyl is better, but it is a pleasurable source. I've not yet heard anything on CD that was better on vinyl, and I've used both formats for years and had many titles on both. If you get the production and the mastering right, the rest will follow suit.

I do think much of the chatter around cables is time - and money - wasted. I also think that HiFi as a hobby is bedevilled by notions and flights of fancy that somehow end up getting more credibility than they deserve.

Let's not sidetrack this; the real issue here is a certain attitude and lack of respect by some on that other forum and at times on here towards others, both individuals and companies, often made by some who aren't qualified to speak. The format of choice is to my mind a secondary issue based on one's own preference.

 

[davedotco]

The weird thing is these people don't use vinyl or high res sources either, many apparently being happy with spotify and 320k, believing the words of the Master about how good it is. In some ways it is the antithesis of HiFi. To belong to the cult is to accept without thinking too hard.

In a somewhat oblique way,this seems to hit the nail on the head.

AVI state, clearly and often, that they are not interested in the traditional hi-fi separates market, with any of their products. The fanboys are not typical of their customers who, once again according to AVI, are in the main not remote interested in hi-fi values but want good quality music from modern, non hi-fi sources with the minimum of effort.

Without a good system, properly set up, 320mbs mp3 is indistinguishable from CD for most people, which leavea AVI clear to concentrate on a product that delivers music with clarity, presence and a remarkable control from speakers that are often far from optimally positioned.

For many coming to ADMs for the first time the presence and control that they exhibit, even when not optimally positioned is what is so convincing, that they do not have the last word in resolution or the refinement of the better passive speakers is beside the point.

 

[John Duncan]

that they do not have the last word in resolution or the refinement of the better passive speakers is beside the point.

:-o

But I thought all passives boom and tizz?!?!?!

 

[John Duncan]

that they do not have the last word in resolution or the refinement of the better passive speakers is beside the point.

I'll bet he doesn't copy and paste THAT bit onto his forum... ;-)

 

[chebby]

AVI state, clearly and often, that they are not interested in the traditional hi-fi separates market, with any of their products. The fanboys are not typical of their customers who, once again according to AVI, are in the main not remote interested in hi-fi values but want good quality music from modern, non hi-fi sources with the minimum of effort.

Without a good system, properly set up, 320mbs mp3 is indistinguishable from CD for most people, which leavea AVI clear to concentrate on a product that delivers music with clarity, presence and a remarkable control from speakers that are often far from optimally positioned.

For many coming to ADMs for the first time the presence and control that they exhibit, even when not optimally positioned is what is so convincing, that they do not have the last word in resolution or the refinement of the better passive speakers is beside the point.

I think you'll find that AVI (and their customers) regularly claim that their products exceed the quality of more traditional hi-fi by a massive margin.

They are on record stating that a pair of ADMs will out-perform £5K and even £10K hi-fi systems in all respects including resolution and refinement.

They don't qualify such statements in the context of non hi-fi sources or systems. They clearly - and frequently - claim absolute superiority of their products over traditional hi-fi (at any price/performance level) and won't tolerate any discussion on this matter.

 

[davedotco]

that they do not have the last word in resolution or the refinement of the better passive speakers is beside the point.

:-o

But I thought all passives boom and tizz?!?!?!

Now, now John, you know I would never say such a thing!

Seriously though, I am hard pressed to think of any passive loudpeakers at a a remotely sensible price that exhibits the bass control of the ADMs, when the positioning or the room acoustics are difficult. I feel this is an important point, a lot of people do not want their systems intruding on their living space and ADMs are remarkably unfussy in that respect.

The introduction of the '5 seems to be driven, in large part, by the realiseation that for many people the '9s are actually too big, the money is not a factor but size and performance is.

If I had a pound for everytime I have heard the phrase "do the speakers have to be that big", in all it's variations, I would be doing ok.