Stupid question

[Blacksabbath25]

Ok sorry I misunderstood what you was saying . My new player has a different sound signature to the cd6005 player has even though it's uses the same dac as my new player does but this is why I think it sounds better without the arcam irdac being connected because the sound signature has changed with the 8005 .

 

[Deleted member 108165]

What do you think about this? http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/how-loud-versus-how-far-you-turn-amplifier-volume-control

Personally I found it very interesting and actually invested in some Rothwell attenuators and they work remarkably well, being totally transparent.

 

[gasolin]

The DAC chip is the same in the SA8005 and the CD6005. I don't know if they have implemented it in the same way.

I was very sceptical about getting any improvement moving from my old CD 6004 to the SA8005 but there was a marked difference. I know all about the subjective stuff but there are CDs that I didn't play as they were dull which I now play because I am getting much more from them.

The "Sound Mode" control is on the remote. It cycles through the various layers.

"Burn in" in electronic components, cables, etc is mainly nonsense IMO. Mechanical components will undoubtedly change with use for good or bad.

Chris

Also the same in the pm6005 and cd5005, i think it's to reduce costs and that various optimisations will gi a sightly different sound, that's why i think the sacd8005 is not just a cd5005/6005 that can play sa cd's although the interanl dac should basically be the same.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

What do you think about this? http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/how-loud-versus-how-far-you-turn-amplifier-volume-control

Personally I found it very interesting and actually invested in some Rothwell attenuators and they work remarkably well, being totally transparent.

its funny i was just reading some old posts about attenuators 1. was rothwell 2. golden jacks . but also read that a good dac like the arcam irdac will work in the same kind of way the attenuators do as this maybe why there is a sound diffrances with the irdac and the onboard dac inside the marantz . This is my thinking now

 

[gasolin]

Don't waste your time. It's a long slippery slope to nowhere and does nothing but wear out your keyboard and your fingers. To repeat what I've said elsewhere, what some people do is drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Though I remain very happy that BlackSabbath now has a system he is happy with and enjoys. That's the primary important thing.

I am interested in this subject because it makes sense but are modern hifi's the same as it was back in the day of the 80s,90s to do with this inputs ? If so were do I buy the inline connecter things that hook up on your analog leads

Is it something like this your thinking of? (i know it's not a cable)

http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/attenuators.html

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rothwell-RCA-In-Line-Attenuators/dp/B00B7383F8/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447411151&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=rotthwell

Here is one where you can choose from 3 different levels http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stageline-21-2840-Passive-Level-Attenuator/dp/B0057G44WM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1447411262&sr=8-2&keywords=RCA+In-Line+Attenuators

I am sure that this is what was meant and they do work, 20dB should be enough.

But, by reducing the signal the input stages of your PM8005 will no longer be 'overdriven' in the way that they are now and the sound signature might change.

In fact, it is possible that the 'Marantz sound' that you paid a lot of money to get will change, possibly quite significantly and you might not like the results.

can't remember who first wrote about but we might have this thing again where it might sound better without the attenuators, because the music will be louder relative to how much the volume knob has to be moved to make music louder

Like if one cdplayer plays 0.5 db louder most will think it has the best sound

In turns of gain,sound quality,noise,distortion..... is there any pros of using an attenuators (with a cdplayer) so we have to turn the volume more up if we want to listen to loud music?

Need some coffee brb (gonna read http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/how-loud-versus-how-far-you-turn-amplifier-volume-control )

 

[Blacksabbath25]

there some on ebay 10db ones £24.99 for a set new . worth a try i think

 

[Deleted member 108165]

there some on ebay 10db ones £24.99 for a set new . worth a try i think

Be careful! The only ones I have found that actually work are the Rothwell ones; the three stage ones on the Bay and Amazon are pants, (or maybe the set I got were just faulty - but same thing I guess... pants).

I've got Rothwells connected to the CD and Network player inputs on my amp and they work - totally transparent and give fuller rotation of the volume dial.

 

[gasolin]

there some on ebay 10db ones £24.99 for a set new . worth a try i think

Be careful! The only ones I have found that actually work are the Rothwell ones; the three stage ones on the Bay and Amazon are pants, (or maybe the set I got were just faulty - but same thing I guess... pants).

I've got Rothwells connected to the CD and Network player inputs on my amp and they work - totally transparent and give fuller rotation of the volume dial.

Mine i -10db is that enough, here it's -16db (not a problem since he would still be able to play loud since his speakers are 93db sinsitive, but soundewise should the attenuators be more then -10db?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-U8DyiYvrY (it's not me in the video, i'm a bit more ugly LOL, first time i got aware of this mismatch between amp/cdplayer gain )

 

[Blacksabbath25]

there some on ebay 10db ones £24.99 for a set new . worth a try i think

Rothwells? (i do own a pair of 10db rothwells attenuators and using them atm)

Genrally question, to get best sound from a pc volume has to be as loud from the souncard,dac as possible without distrion

(if you have active speakers for best sound you should keep volume from the pc the same all the time and adjust the volume with the external soundcard/dac or speciel volume knob like the one from t c electronic before it comes out of the pc)

Do we/i need a attenuator for my pc?

From the harbarth thread/topic i get following results (are currently only on page2).

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?2341-How-loud-versus-how-far-you-turn-the-volume-control/

More or less all cd's and cdplayer are recorded to loud/have to much output.

There for we must make shure the sound,output from the cdplayer doesn't distort no matter how loud a cd is recorded (could easily distort because of high output from the cdplayer and loud recorded cd's), then we don't get distortion from the cdplayer and we can play music from our cdplayer without getting distortion no matter how loud a cd is recorded

Right?

Bonus side effect with attenuators, you can more easy adjust volume to what you like, not just low volume, loud,louder,max volume (10'0 clock) distortion(just above 10'o clock) thats almost like driving in a car with a diffrence of lets say 1-2 inch from lowest speed to max throttle ,(guess it would be hard to adjust speed ;-) ) at normal listening levels your are above the level where theres channel unbalance where one channel is louder then the other (happens to a lot of cheap amps) and if theres distortion (unless it's a jimi hendrix playing a guitar solos and is surprose to sound distorted) the only distortion is when you try to player louder then the amps max power/limited

which ones do i need the 10db ones or the 20db ones ?

 

[gasolin]

there some on ebay 10db ones £24.99 for a set new . worth a try i think

Rothwells? (i do own a pair of 10db rothwells attenuators and using them atm)

Genrally question, to get best sound from a pc volume has to be as loud from the souncard,dac as possible without distortion

(if you have active speakers for best sound you should keep volume from the pc the same all the time and adjust the volume with the external soundcard/dac or speciel volume knob like the one from t c electronic so you don't adjust the volume before it comes out of the pc)

Do we/i need a attenuator for my pc?

From the harbarth thread/topic i get following results (are currently only on page2).

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?2341-How-loud-versus-how-far-you-turn-the-volume-control/

More or less all cd's and cdplayer are recorded to loud/have to much output.

There for we must make shure the sound,output from the cdplayer doesn't distort no matter how loud a cd is recorded (could easily distort because of high output from the cdplayer and loud recorded cd's), then we don't get distortion from the cdplayer.

This mean we can play music from our cdplayer without getting distortion no matter how loud a cd is recorded (like many remastered and new cd's are)

Right?

Bonus side effect with attenuators, you can more easy adjust volume to what you like, not just low volume, loud,louder,max volume (10'0 clock) distortion(just above 10'o clock) thats almost like driving in a car with a diffrence of lets say 1-2 inch from lowest speed to max throttle ,(guess it would be hard to adjust speed ;-) ) at normal listening levels your are above the level where theres channel unbalance where one channel is louder then the other (happens to a lot of cheap amps) and if theres distortion (unless it's a jimi hendrix playing a guitar solos and is surprose to sound distorted) the only distortion is when you try to player louder then the amps max power/limited is

 

[Thompsonuxb]

A CDplayer is the sum of its parts it's not just a chip or a tray.....

As an example like a speaker - the sound from a drive unit can be improved by putting it in a box. That sound can be improved by adding a port, then further improved by placing it on a solid stand - the input to the driver remains the same but the differences are audible.

False analogy. Those features of a speaker directly affect the sound waves you hear in a way that most features of a cd player beyond the DAC don't.

Not talking about soundwaves just performance.

The quality of the output can be improved with more sophisticated engineering was more the point.

The DAC is not the end story.

 

[gasolin]

there some on ebay 10db ones £24.99 for a set new . worth a try i think

Rothwells? (i do own a pair of 10db rothwells attenuators and using them atm)

Genrally question, to get best sound from a pc volume has to be as loud from the souncard,dac as possible without distrion

(if you have active speakers for best sound you should keep volume from the pc the same all the time and adjust the volume with the external soundcard/dac or speciel volume knob like the one from t c electronic before it comes out of the pc)

Do we/i need a attenuator for my pc?

From the harbarth thread/topic i get following results (are currently only on page2).

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?2341-How-loud-versus-how-far-you-turn-the-volume-control/

More or less all cd's and cdplayer are recorded to loud/have to much output.

There for we must make shure the sound,output from the cdplayer doesn't distort no matter how loud a cd is recorded (could easily distort because of high output from the cdplayer and loud recorded cd's), then we don't get distortion from the cdplayer and we can play music from our cdplayer without getting distortion no matter how loud a cd is recorded

Right?

Bonus side effect with attenuators, you can more easy adjust volume to what you like, not just low volume, loud,louder,max volume (10'0 clock) distortion(just above 10'o clock) thats almost like driving in a car with a diffrence of lets say 1-2 inch from lowest speed to max throttle ,(guess it would be hard to adjust speed ;-) ) at normal listening levels your are above the level where theres channel unbalance where one channel is louder then the other (happens to a lot of cheap amps) and if theres distortion (unless it's a jimi hendrix playing a guitar solos and is surprose to sound distorted) the only distortion is when you try to player louder then the amps max power/limited

which ones do i need the 10db ones or the 20db ones ?

In the video (my analog corner) he uses -16 db attenuators, i have -10 db.

Price is the same for rothwells -10, -20db attenuators, i feel theres absolutly no distortion (amp distortion but also in general) with -10db attenuators at 12'o clock, but i can't imagine using -20 db since you really got to turn the volume knob up alot to play loud, compared to not using them (then if you go to a input with no attenuators like your pc/youtube it might suddenly be extreme loud with -20db if you forget to turn the volume down)

Why it's -16 db i don't know, asked why -16 db but he didn't know, there must be a reason to why it's that high

I can't say what you should buy, only that you should try it for yourself, would be most logical to buy -20 db since it's closer to -16db then -10 db is.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

there some on ebay 10db ones £24.99 for a set new . worth a try i think

Be careful! The only ones I have found that actually work are the Rothwell ones; the three stage ones on the Bay and Amazon are pants, (or maybe the set I got were just faulty - but same thing I guess... pants).

I've got Rothwells connected to the CD and Network player inputs on my amp and they work - totally transparent and give fuller rotation of the volume dial.

Mine i -10db is that enough, here it's -16db (not a problem since he would still be able to play loud since his speakers are 93db sinsitive, but soundewise should the attenuators be more then -10db?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-U8DyiYvrY (it's not me in the video, i'm a bit more ugly LOL, first time i got aware of this mismatch between amp/cdplayer gain )

It's all a matter of personal preference. You don't need attenuation if you are happy with the sound you currently have. The only reason I got attenuators was because I wasn't happy with the limited sweep of the volume dial: 07:00 nothing, 10:00 too loud.

I am happy with the -10dB as I have a turntable as well and this level off attenuation "almost" equalises all the inputs regarding the position of the volume dial. As a note "loud" on my amp is now around the 12:00 noon position on the volume dial, (as a note my loud is 75dB peak, yours may be higher). Hope this helps.

 

[davedotco]

I find it quite absurd that third party attenuators should be required between two products, not just from the same manufacturer, but the same series...!

It just shows how important the manufacturers consider maximising volume to be, we all castigate record companies for their relentless intent to provide the loudest possible CDs (loudness wars) when it seems the manufacturers are often just as guilty.

This is of cause, fallout from the simple fact that most modern hi-fi electronics are, effectively, transparent. It all goes back to the old 'all (power) amplifiers sound the same' argument, which (in context) they do. So if you are a manufacturer whose amplifier (or in this instance, dac) sounds the same as everyone else's, you have to find a way to make your product stand out.

If you can, in some way, persuade a prospective customer to play your product a little bit louder than a competitors, then it is pretty much job done. This is, in the main, what most manufacturers do when trying to convince you of the superiority of their product because it is cheaper and easier than the alternative, which is to design and build a genuinely better product.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

I find it quite absurd that third party attenuators should be required between two products, not just from the same manufacturer, but the same series...!

It just shows how important the manufacturers consider maximising volume to be, we all castigate record companies for their relentless intent to provide the loudest possible CDs (loudness wars) when it seems the manufacturers are often just as guilty.

This is of cause, fallout from the simple fact that most modern hi-fi electronics are, effectively, transparent. It all goes back to the old 'all (power) amplifiers sound the same' argument, which (in context) they do. So if you are a manufacturer whose amplifier (or in this instance, dac) sounds the same as everyone else's, you have to find a way to make your product stand out.

If you can, in some way, persuade a prospective customer to play your product a little bit louder than a competitors, then it is pretty much job done. This is, in the main, what most manufacturers do when trying to convince you of the superiority of their product because it is cheaper and easier than the alternative, which is to design and build a genuinely better product.

Spot-on as usual Dave, but as you have been saying all along: "Loudness sells", whether that be in hi-fi kit or music. I tend to look upon attenuation as a personal tweak of my system, but would wholeheartedly agree that I wish manufacturers would just give us a useable volume pot, not this all or nothing carp. I know there are manufacturers who do provide useable volume pots but all round I just like the look and sound of Marantz.

 

[davedotco]

Spot-on as usual Dave, but as you have been saying all along: "Loudness sells", whether that be in hi-fi kit or music. I tend to look upon attenuation as a personal tweak of my system, but would wholeheartedly agree that I wish manufacturers would just give us a useable volume pot, not this all or nothing carp. I know there are manufacturers who do provide useable volume pots but all round I just like the look and sound of Marantz.

What is interesting is that, even when we know what is going on, our ear/brain still insists that the 'louder' component is better, it is really very convincing.

Despite this I am a great believer in auditioning hi-fi before you buy, partly because amplifiers, in particular, will vary noticeably when they are required to handle the complexity of real world systems. In this instance, I have no doubt that, in a properly set up, blind, level matched test, most enthusiasts would be unable to pick a PM8004 from, say, an Arcam A19 despite the very different characteristics they appear to exhibit in sighted tests.

Personally, I find it fascinating the way people react to different systems and the way that these reactions are often consistent across a range of listeners. Percieved wisdom in these areas tell us that the Marantz amplifiers are 'vibrant', 'musical' performers whilst the Arcams are more 'relaxed' and 'refined', yet I am absolutely positive that we would all struggle to tell them apart in the sort of test mentioned above.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Spot-on as usual Dave, but as you have been saying all along: "Loudness sells", whether that be in hi-fi kit or music. I tend to look upon attenuation as a personal tweak of my system, but would wholeheartedly agree that I wish manufacturers would just give us a useable volume pot, not this all or nothing carp. I know there are manufacturers who do provide useable volume pots but all round I just like the look and sound of Marantz.

What is interesting is that, even when we know what is going on, our ear/brain still insists that the 'louder' component is better, it is really very convincing.

Despite this I am a great believer in auditioning hi-fi before you buy, partly because amplifiers, in particular, will vary noticeably when they are required to handle the complexity of real world systems. In this instance, I have no doubt that, in a properly set up, blind, level matched test, most enthusiasts would be unable to pick a PM8004 from, say, an Arcam A19 despite the very different characteristics they appear to exhibit in sighted tests.

Personally, I find it fascinating the way people react to different systems and the way that these reactions are often consistent across a range of listeners. Percieved wisdom in these areas tell us that the Marantz amplifiers are 'vibrant', 'musical' performers whilst the Arcams are more 'relaxed' and 'refined', yet I am absolutely positive that we would all struggle to tell them apart in the sort of test mentioned above.

the last time I had an arcam was the Fmj av8 & p7 power amp and I had a set of monitor audio gold floor standers that lot cost me an arm and a leg but it sounded lovely that was back in 2002 I could not afford that now but I do think arcam was very good then but when I had a demo the a19 it sounded nothing like what I used to have but then 2002 was a long time ago .

 

[iceman16]

I would suggest that you forget about too much science etc.. just enjoy your new toys.

 

[MajorFubar]

...of attenuation but I can't see me paying £40 for what are basically a couple of 15p resistors soldered into a pair of phono plugs. Think I missed my calling. Mind you on second thoughts I don't suppose they sell well enough for me to give up my day job.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Spot-on as usual Dave, but as you have been saying all along: "Loudness sells", whether that be in hi-fi kit or music. I tend to look upon attenuation as a personal tweak of my system, but would wholeheartedly agree that I wish manufacturers would just give us a useable volume pot, not this all or nothing carp. I know there are manufacturers who do provide useable volume pots but all round I just like the look and sound of Marantz.

What is interesting is that, even when we know what is going on, our ear/brain still insists that the 'louder' component is better, it is really very convincing.

Despite this I am a great believer in auditioning hi-fi before you buy, partly because amplifiers, in particular, will vary noticeably when they are required to handle the complexity of real world systems. In this instance, I have no doubt that, in a properly set up, blind, level matched test, most enthusiasts would be unable to pick a PM8004 from, say, an Arcam A19 despite the very different characteristics they appear to exhibit in sighted tests.

Personally, I find it fascinating the way people react to different systems and the way that these reactions are often consistent across a range of listeners. Percieved wisdom in these areas tell us that the Marantz amplifiers are 'vibrant', 'musical' performers whilst the Arcams are more 'relaxed' and 'refined', yet I am absolutely positive that we would all struggle to tell them apart in the sort of test mentioned above.

It's the way the human animal has evolved over the millenia. But we still respond to ancient stimuli in same way as we did when we lived in caves and wore animal pelts. Loud = danger, loud = excitement. Nowt as queer as folks!

 

[Deleted member 108165]

...of attenuation but I can't see me paying £40 for what are basically a couple of 15p resistors soldered into a pair of phono plugs. Think I missed my calling. Mind you on second thoughts I don't suppose they sell well enough for me to give up my day job.

I can solder, it's just a ****** holding my huge blow torch, resistor and phono plug *biggrin*

 

[Blacksabbath25]

...of attenuation but I can't see me paying £40 for what are basically a couple of 15p resistors soldered into a pair of phono plugs. Think I missed my calling. Mind you on second thoughts I don't suppose they sell well enough for me to give up my day job.

I can solder, it's just a ****** holding my huge blow torch, resistor and phono plug *biggrin*

i will hold fire on buying the resistors for now i am happy with my sound its much better what i had but thanks for the info everyone that put there pennys worth in . do not burn your hands *wink*

 

[Andrewjvt]

It's the way the human animal has evolved over the millenia. But we still respond to ancient stimuli in same way as we did when we lived in caves and wore animal pelts. Loud = danger, loud = excitement. Nowt as queer as folks!
[/quote]

Using evolution theory to explain hifi or music. Running out of decent topics. Please someone go buy a new amp or speakers

 

[gasolin]

It's the way the human animal has evolved over the millenia. But we still respond to ancient stimuli in same way as we did when we lived in caves and wore animal pelts. Loud = danger, loud = excitement. Nowt as queer as folks!

Using evolution theory to explain hifi or music. Running out of decent topics. Please someone go buy a new amp or speakers

[/quote]

Shure which amp/speakers do you want me to buy ?(has to be better the marantz PM8005 and dali rubicons) LOL

 

[Andrewjvt]

It's the way the human animal has evolved over the millenia. But we still respond to ancient stimuli in same way as we did when we lived in caves and wore animal pelts. Loud = danger, loud = excitement. Nowt as queer as folks!

Using evolution theory to explain hifi or music. Running out of decent topics. Please someone go buy a new amp or speakers

?

Shure which amp/speakers do you want me to buy ?(has to be better the marantz PM8005 and dali rubicons) LOL
[/quote]

There are lots, are you a farmer or hunter?