Stupid question

[gasolin]

Well I got it delivered to night so will hook it up tomorrow and see what sounds best . with arcam dac or without just using the sa8005 on board dac and let you no what I think is the better out of the two for sound quality . I have had it out of the box its heavy a lot heavier then the cd6005 is .

Do you still have the marantz PM6005?

If you could hook it up to the amp to hear if the dac in the sa8005 is as good as the PM6005 dac or better (CD6005/PM6005 have the same dac so this way you could compared the difference pretty easy by hooking up the sa8005 both analog and digital and the see/hear if there is any difference and therefore know if the sa cdplayer just have mabye bit less noise and if it's just a CD6005 that can play sacd's)

 

[davedotco]

The louder dac sounds 'better'. What a surprise.

You need to borrow a digital multimeter and a CD with a few test tones, pink noise would be best but you can use a sine wave if you have to.

Play the test tone on each player and use the meter across the speaker terminals. Adjust the level on the amplifier to give you identical readings (millivolts), mark the settings.

Then get someone to help you by switching the inputs and adjusting the level, set it up so that you are unable to see what he is doing. Do the comparison again.

This is far from a rigorous scientific experiment but it does cut out the two most important variables, volume level and expectation bias. If nothing else it will show you just how tiny the real difference is

 

[Thompsonuxb]

The louder dac sounds 'better'. What a surprise.

?

You need to borrow a digital multimeter and a CD with a few test tones, pink noise would be best but you can use a sine wave if you have to.

Play the test tone on each player and use the meter across the speaker terminals. Adjust the level on the amplifier to give you identical readings (millivolts), mark the settings.

Then get someone to help you by switching the inputs and adjusting the level, set it up so that you are unable to see what he is doing. Do the comparison again.

This is far from a rigorous scientific experiment but it does cut out the two most important variables, volume level and expectation bias. If nothing else it will show you just how tiny the real difference is

Honestly...... :-/

Louder does not automatically equate to 'better'

I mean c'mon man, some of you take this audiophile thing too far sometimes.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Yes I still have my old setup . Ok the dac maybe the same but there are far more components going into the 8005 then the cd6005 player better transport , better power supply , better build , different display and like I said above in my review I was playing CDs only the 8005 does sound better to my ears I ran the same CD and song and it sounded better without the irdac being connected . When I switched between the 2 the 8005 sounded much stronger in it sound and a bit louder even though I had not touched the volume . If you look at pictures of the inside of the cd6005 and then look at the 8005 you will see what I mean as they are no were near the same player and the same between the pm6005 and pm8005 amp the pm8005 sounds completely different to the pm6005 amp and tell me why that's the case with this 2 amps and the same goes with the sacd player and cd6005 . I really did think that the arcam would easily beat the marantz on board dac but it just sounded a bit quieter . I not going to the trouble of testing this and that with meters just to find out that's just ridiculous . I got the sound how I want it now so that's all that matters

 

[gasolin]

Right I will try to do a review on what I thought what sounded better .. Right first I set up the sacd player just with analog leads using the inboard dac on the sa8005 & pm8005 I started with dire straits brothers in arms ( track 9 brothers in arms ) normal cd I thought this song sounded very good lots of detail wide sound stage , and bite . Then I switched to the arcam irdac as I connected my second set of analog leads to the aux section of the amp so I could flick between analog and using the ir dac . I found that the sound was not so loud having the irdac connected it sound was not so wide open with the sound stage and the sound lost its bite too the detail was still there but held back I would say that the irdac adds a little bit of Weight to the lower end then anything I played the same song and still used the same volume on both tests . The winner for me would be the dac inside the sa8005 it just sounds that little bit better . Now scads cds being played this is a hard one to be honest I felt that the sound sounded the same as cd I put both versions on the player normal copy of the cd and then the sacd version of the same album and used the same song as before there's very little in it to be honest I tried to listen hard but there's very little in the sound for the money your paying for a sacd album . Now build of the sa8005 is far better then the cd6005 the sa8005 as a rubber like loading tray which is very quiet when closing and the player is a lot more heavier then the cd6005 is and the display is different too I would say the sa8005 player is a bit slower reading the information on what ever format you put in the player . So what have I gained here a better player I can now lose the arcam ir dac now as it sound is now good without this being connected so worth buying basically so for me the sa8005 dac is the winner which to be honest I am shocked about as I really did think that the arcam dac was better it's not . So this is my review on the sa8005 and dac test

More bite you say from the sa8005, more agressive sound and the arcam dac has a more soft,analog (less fattigue) sound?

 

[gasolin]

Yes I still have my old setup . Ok the dac maybe the same but there are far more components going into the 8005 then the cd6005 player better transport , better power supply , better build , different display and like I said above in my review I was playing CDs only the 8005 does sound better to my ears I ran the same CD and song and it sounded better without the irdac being connected . When I switched between the 2 the 8005 sounded much stronger in it sound and a bit louder even though I had not touched the volume . If you look at pictures of the inside of the cd6005 and then look at the 8005 you will see what I mean as they are no were near the same player and the same between the pm6005 and pm8005 amp the pm8005 sounds completely different to the pm6005 amp and tell me why that's the case with this 2 amps and the same goes with the sacd player and cd6005 . I really did think that the arcam would easily beat the marantz on board dac but it just sounded a bit quieter . I not going to the trouble of testing this and that with meters just to find out that's just ridiculous . I got the sound how I want it now so that's all that matters

If one over the others 8analog/digital) is more loud doesn't mean it sounds better. Use the volume *** if something is to loud or not loud enough

when switching between to analog, digital turn that volume all the way down play som music and raise the volume don't look at the knob just make the sound louder.

I gues ;-) you stop playing louder when you reach your prefered listening level wether it's 10'o clock or 11 0' clock analog or digital output and it doesn't matter if it's analog or digital output max level before distortion is the same

You also have pretty good speakers so you should be able to hear a difference if there is any

 

[davedotco]

Yes I still have my old setup . Ok the dac maybe the same but there are far more components going into the 8005 then the cd6005 player better transport , better power supply , better build , different display and like I said above in my review I was playing CDs only the 8005 does sound better to my ears I ran the same CD and song and it sounded better without the irdac being connected . When I switched between the 2 the 8005 sounded much stronger in it sound and a bit louder even though I had not touched the volume . If you look at pictures of the inside of the cd6005 and then look at the 8005 you will see what I mean as they are no were near the same player and the same between the pm6005 and pm8005 amp the pm8005 sounds completely different to the pm6005 amp and tell me why that's the case with this 2 amps and the same goes with the sacd player and cd6005 . I really did think that the arcam would easily beat the marantz on board dac but it just sounded a bit quieter . I not going to the trouble of testing this and that with meters just to find out that's just ridiculous . I got the sound how I want it now so that's all that matters

No, it is not riduculous, it is the only sane way of finding out what, if any, the differences are. It is called 'scientific method' and it is how things are tested in the real world.

If you don't want to do that and prefer simply to rely on your own flawed hearing, that is fair enough. You did however contribute to this forum by asking what difference these changes would make, then you consider the only practical, meaningful comparison to be ridiculous....*unknw*

Of course it is, as always, your money and your choice but you are making decisions based on volume level, expectation bias and brand loyalty.

It's how the hi-fi sales industry works.

 

[davedotco]

Yes I still have my old setup . Ok the dac maybe the same but there are far more components going into the 8005 then the cd6005 player better transport , better power supply , better build , different display and like I said above in my review I was playing CDs only the 8005 does sound better to my ears I ran the same CD and song and it sounded better without the irdac being connected . When I switched between the 2 the 8005 sounded much stronger in it sound and a bit louder even though I had not touched the volume . If you look at pictures of the inside of the cd6005 and then look at the 8005 you will see what I mean as they are no were near the same player and the same between the pm6005 and pm8005 amp the pm8005 sounds completely different to the pm6005 amp and tell me why that's the case with this 2 amps and the same goes with the sacd player and cd6005 . I really did think that the arcam would easily beat the marantz on board dac but it just sounded a bit quieter . I not going to the trouble of testing this and that with meters just to find out that's just ridiculous . I got the sound how I want it now so that's all that matters

If one over the others 8analog/digital) is more loud doesn't mean it sounds better. Use the volume *** if something is to loud or not loud enough

when switching between to analog, digital turn that volume all the way down play som music and raise the volume don't look at the knob just make the sound louder.

I gues ;-) you stop playing louder when you reach your prefered listening level wether it's 10'o clock or 11 0' clock analog or digital output and it doesn't matter if it's analog or digital output max level before distortion is the same

You also have pretty good speakers so you should be able to hear a difference if there is any

What you say sounds entirely reasonable but simply does not work, this is not just me saying this, but the entire scientific establishment. Our senses simply do not work that way!

Even a small level difference, <0.5dB say, will make the louder source sound better, it will not be perceived as louder, just 'weightier', more 'focused', 'sharper soundstage' etc, sound familiar?

This is all well documented, when we throw in the other factors such as expectation bias and even the bias caused by 'branding' it is obvious that the comparison needs to be both level matched and blind.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Yes I still have my old setup . Ok the dac maybe the same but there are far more components going into the 8005 then the cd6005 player better transport , better power supply , better build , different display and like I said above in my review I was playing CDs only the 8005 does sound better to my ears I ran the same CD and song and it sounded better without the irdac being connected . When I switched between the 2 the 8005 sounded much stronger in it sound and a bit louder even though I had not touched the volume . If you look at pictures of the inside of the cd6005 and then look at the 8005 you will see what I mean as they are no were near the same player and the same between the pm6005 and pm8005 amp the pm8005 sounds completely different to the pm6005 amp and tell me why that's the case with this 2 amps and the same goes with the sacd player and cd6005 . I really did think that the arcam would easily beat the marantz on board dac but it just sounded a bit quieter . I not going to the trouble of testing this and that with meters just to find out that's just ridiculous . I got the sound how I want it now so that's all that matters

If one over the others 8analog/digital) is more loud doesn't mean it sounds better. Use the volume *** if something is to loud or not loud enough

when switching between to analog, digital turn that volume all the way down play som music and raise the volume don't look at the knob just make the sound louder.

I gues ;-) you stop playing louder when you reach your prefered listening level wether it's 10'o clock or 11 0' clock analog or digital output and it doesn't matter if it's analog or digital output max level before distortion is the same

You also have pretty good speakers so you should be able to hear a difference if there is any

i am not playing loud at all 8 o 'clock is not loud well not in my eyes anyway and i do not get any distortion at all mybe if i turn the level why past 12 o'clock yes then your would start getting distortion . so when i am talking about it sounded louder not me turnning up the levels i mean when i ficked 2 and from cd - aux there was a loudness difference in sound

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Yes I still have my old setup . Ok the dac maybe the same but there are far more components going into the 8005 then the cd6005 player better transport , better power supply , better build , different display and like I said above in my review I was playing CDs only the 8005 does sound better to my ears I ran the same CD and song and it sounded better without the irdac being connected . When I switched between the 2 the 8005 sounded much stronger in it sound and a bit louder even though I had not touched the volume . If you look at pictures of the inside of the cd6005 and then look at the 8005 you will see what I mean as they are no were near the same player and the same between the pm6005 and pm8005 amp the pm8005 sounds completely different to the pm6005 amp and tell me why that's the case with this 2 amps and the same goes with the sacd player and cd6005 . I really did think that the arcam would easily beat the marantz on board dac but it just sounded a bit quieter . I not going to the trouble of testing this and that with meters just to find out that's just ridiculous . I got the sound how I want it now so that's all that matters

No, it is not riduculous, it is the only sane way of finding out what, if any, the differences are. It is called 'scientific method' and it is how things are tested in the real world.

If you don't want to do that and prefer simply to rely on your own flawed hearing, that is fair enough. You did however contribute to this forum by asking what difference these changes would make, then you consider the only practical, meaningful comparison to be ridiculous....*unknw*

Of course it is, as always, your money and your choice but you are making decisions based on volume level, expectation bias and brand loyalty.

It's how the hi-fi sales industry works.

yes that's right it is my money and there's nothing wrong with my hearing at all and i find you very rude and as you like facts maybe you should read the rules of the site

 

[emperor's new clothes]

Hi Blacksabbath,

Thanks for your review and not surprised at your findings

. I got a very good price for my irDAC on fleabay. The Sa8005 will improve with use in my experience. As you are not going to use digital out, you can switch it off - page 29 of the manual - and despite my scepticism, it does slightly improve SQ as Marantz suggests.

Best to ignore the insults and ill-informed pedantics on here - note how your other SACD thread has been hijacked by the DireS dissing society. If it was about cars, no doubt some would insist that a Seat Ibiza is exactly the same as an Audi A3 because they have an identical 1.2TSI engine (which is built by Skoda!).

Glad you have found an excellent sounding system. I am enjoying the music - the hifi just disappears which is surely the whole point. happy listening.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

If it was about cars, no doubt some would insist that a Seat Ibiza is exactly the same as an Audi A3 because they have an identical 1.2TSI engine (which is built by Skoda!).

No, but the Leon and the A3 are the same car with different clothes on. I'll get my coat...

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Hi Blacksabbath,

Thanks for your review and not surprised at your findings. I got a very good price for my irDAC on fleabay. The Sa8005 will improve with use in my experience. As you are not going to use digital out, you can switch it off - page 29 of the manual - and despite my scepticism, it does slightly improve SQ as Marantz suggests.

Best to ignore the insults and ill-informed pedantics on here - note how your other SACD thread has been hijacked by the DireS dissing society. If it was about cars, no doubt some would insist that a Seat Ibiza is exactly the same as an Audi A3 because they have an identical 1.2TSI engine (which is built by Skoda!).

Glad you have found an excellent sounding system. I am enjoying the music - the hifi just disappears which is surely the whole point. happy listening.

thank you for your kind words

 

[davedotco]

[/quote]

yes that's right it is my money and there's nothing wrong with my hearing at all and i find you very rude and as you like facts maybe you should read the rules of the site

[/quote]

Apologies if I come across as being rude, but the points I am making are fundamental to our understanding and evaluation of hi-fi.

I know they are sometimes counter intuitive and occasionally quite hard to grasp, they are in no way a criticism of your hearing or your inteligence.

The ear/brain interface is a complex mechanism but much of the way it operates is known as a result considerable scientific research. The volume matching I keep going on about is important because, despite whatever we know, however well we are prepared to 'ignore' changes in level, we can't, no one can, it's the way the brain works.

In sighted tests other factors come into play too, we all have our predjudices and these come out all the time, again it is automatic, there is nothing we can do about it. It's called expectation bias and it is very powerful indeed.

In hi-fi there are always two ways to look at any equipment choice you make.

Obviously you can just swap around components and decide which one you prefer, pretty much as you have done. No problems here, the way a new component (CD player in this case) fits and matches into the system is important so you make a choice. You are happy, the system sounds great.

On the other hand you can be more scientific, reduce the variables, and listen blind and determine if there is a real improvement or not. Carried out with even a modest amount of care, such tests can be enlightning and quite surprising. Differences that were, to coin a phrase, 'night and day' in unstructured, sighted tests just disappear when tested blind.

This is one of the most revelatory experiments that you can do, if you ever get the opportunity to take part in a blind test, particularly one conducted by a 'third party', do it, you will be surprised.

 

[gasolin]

Do you use the sound mode (sound ex) the sa cd8005 manual say nothing about the sound mode but it's there on the CD5005/6005

 

[Thompsonuxb]

He is right Dave. You are being ridiculous.

As discussed on here previously compromising a superior product to accommodate a lesser product makes no sense.

I can turn my own amp down to the point it sounds like my Pioneer SK-757l. (a legacy from my youth) then close my eyes and talk about them sounding the same.

The fact is my set is far superior sounding to the SK-757l

Trying to justify it with a nonsense 'scientific' argument is just plain silly.

If one divice sounds better than the other then it sounds better.

How do you complicate that?

 

[slice]

He is right Dave. You are being ridiculous.

As discussed on here previously compromising a superior product to accommodate a lesser product makes no sense.

I can turn my own amp down to the point it sounds like my Pioneer SK-757l. (a legacy from my youth) then close my eyes and talk about them sounding the same.

The fact is my set is far superior sounding to the SK-757l

Trying to justify it with a nonsense 'scientific' argument is just plain silly.

If one divice sounds better than the other then it sounds better.

How do you complicate that?

I really don't understand your post. All that has been suggested is to match the 2 volumes so you can compare like with like. i don't see how this can be construed as "compomising a superior product", in fact it might well assert the superiority in a more convincing way.

Nor has Dave been rude in anyway.

 

[emperor's new clothes]

Do you use the sound mode (sound ex) the sa cd8005 manual say nothing about the sound mode but it's there on the CD5005/6005

Try reading page 30/31 again:

Press SOUND MODE and switch to the layer you want to set.

STEREO (Default) : Plays back the 2-channel area of the Super Audio CD.

MULTI : Plays back the multi-channel area of the Super Audio CD. The analog output of this unit outputs a down-mixed 2-channel signal.

CD : Plays back the CD layer of the Super Audio CD.

 

[emperor's new clothes]

If it was about cars, no doubt some would insist that a Seat Ibiza is exactly the same as an Audi A3 because they have an identical 1.2TSI engine (which is built by Skoda!).

No, but the Leon and the A3 are the same car with different clothes on. I'll get my coat...

Many of the components under the skin and materials in the cabin are certainly not the same, but not the point. Ibiza vs Audi more relevant to the 6005/8005 price differential, especially the 8005 original price of £1000. Just joining the pedantic society

 

[Thompsonuxb]

He is right Dave. You are being ridiculous.

As discussed on here previously compromising a superior product to accommodate a lesser product makes no sense.

I can turn my own amp down to the point it sounds like my Pioneer SK-757l. (a legacy from my youth) then close my eyes and talk about them sounding the same.

The fact is my set is far superior sounding to the SK-757l

Trying to justify it with a nonsense 'scientific' argument is just plain silly.

If one divice sounds better than the other then it sounds better.

How do you complicate that?

I really don't understand your post. All that has been suggested is to match the 2 volumes so you can compare like with like. i don't see how this can be construed as "compomising a superior product",  in fact it might well assert the superiority in a more convincing way.

Nor has Dave been rude in anyway.

What?

Google the players inards - the 8005 could probably be played at higher volumes with fewer audible issues.
Where as the 6005's shortcomings may be exposed at higher volumes. (read the OPs opinion's)

To accommodate the 6005 you'll not hear the full potential of the 8005.

I.e where the 8005 could play at higher volumes comfortably without distortion the 6005 will struggle.

The very thing you're paying a premium for you'll compromise?

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Do you use the sound mode (sound ex) the sa cd8005 manual say nothing about the sound mode but it's there on the CD5005/6005

no I do not think so if your on about the Exit 1 & Exit 2 thing I had that on the cd6005 but I have looked for that on the cd8005 but does not seem to be on there . I have only had it for a day so far so I still kind of messing with the sittings still and still testing it with the irdac still setup on the auxiliary input and the analogue is setup on the cd input so kind of switching it between the 2 inputs but there is definitely a sound difference between the arcam irdac and the on board dac and my wife hearing the differences and she normally hopeless at noticeing stuff like that . No I no the sa8005 uses the same dac as the cd6005 now what I want to no is what makes 8005 different from the cd6005 apart from the dac . I no it has a different power supply now what would this do to sound ? Better transport , different display, a heavily built case then 6005 has . Why would marantz make 2 models of CD player with the same dac inside ones a budget CD player and the other a mid range model what would be the point in upgrading surely what makes this 2 models stand apart from each other surly it's not the sacd function that your paying for . Hopefully someone with component understanding will tell me as I am interested.

 

[hg_mike]

Trying to justify it with a nonsense 'scientific' argument is just plain silly.

If one divice sounds better than the other then it sounds better.

How do you complicate that?

I suggest that you read the book http://www.amazon.fr/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0141033576/ref=pd_sim_eb_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=0GXSET89Y5KE2JNJTPFP

I am currently reading the book. Already within the first third of the book, are descriptions of the many biases and thinking short-cuts used by everyones subconcious, that lead the concious mind to draw wrong conclusions. Whilst I am reading about these biases, my thoughts keep returning to hifi reviews, hifi marketing, and hifi auditioning. It becomes ever clearer that many audiophiles manage to allow their subconcious to convince them that amplifier A is better than amplifier B, even when scientifically conducted measurements prove the opposite.

 

[gasolin]

Do you use the sound mode (sound ex) the sa cd8005 manual say nothing about the sound mode but it's there on the CD5005/6005

Try reading page 30/31 again:

Press SOUND MODE and switch to the layer you want to set.

STEREO (Default) : Plays back the 2-channel area of the Super Audio CD.

MULTI : Plays back the multi-channel area of the Super Audio CD. The analog output of this unit outputs a down-mixed 2-channel signal.

CD : Plays back the CD layer of the Super Audio CD.

So it doesn't have sound mode/ex like the 2 smaller models (not shure why it has pitch control like some turntables have)

 

[davedotco]

Do you use the sound mode (sound ex) the sa cd8005 manual say nothing about the sound mode but it's there on the CD5005/6005

no I do not think so if your on about the Exit 1 & Exit 2 thing I had that on the cd6005 but I have looked for that on the cd8005 but does not seem to be on there . I have only had it for a day so far so I still kind of messing with the sittings still and still testing it with the irdac still setup on the auxiliary input and the analogue is setup on the cd input so kind of switching it between the 2 inputs but there is definitely a sound difference between the arcam irdac and the on board dac and my wife hearing the differences and she normally hopeless at noticeing stuff like that . No I no the sa8005 uses the same dac as the cd6005 now what I want to no is what makes 8005 different from the cd6005 apart from the dac . I no it has a different power supply now what would this do to sound ? Better transport , different display, a heavily built case then 6005 has . Why would marantz make 2 models of CD player with the same dac inside ones a budget CD player and the other a mid range model what would be the point in upgrading surely what makes this 2 models stand apart from each other surly it's not the sacd function that your paying for . Hopefully someone with component understanding will tell me as I am interested.

Because modern dac chips are pretty much identical and totally audibly transparent. If 'complete' component dacs are audibly different it is rarely the anything to do with the dac chip. There used to be scope for manufacturers to build their own filters, thus adding their own sound signature, but most modern dac chips include them and many have their analogue stages built in too.

So why do dacs sound different? Well, mostly they don't, among compedent designs anyway, so some manufacturers try to find ways to make their product 'stand out'. Boring though it might be, increasing the output slightly from the 2 volt standard is both the cheapest and most effective way of doing this, though some deliberately 'voice' the analogue stage to conform to a house sound.

There are other factors that can affect the performance of a stand alone dac, effective input stages, sometimes with reclocking, jitter reduction, noise isolation etc, etc. In many ways having the dac on board the CD player is the best option, eliminating the SPDIF interface (the data protocols by which digital data is sent from one digital component to another) is generally a good idea, as indeed are better (low noise) power supplies.

As is usual with hi-fi electronics, most differences are volume related, hence my (and others) insistence on level matching.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Trying to justify it with a nonsense 'scientific' argument is just plain silly.

If one divice sounds better than the other then it sounds better.

How do you complicate that?

I suggest that you read the book http://www.amazon.fr/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0141033576/ref=pd_sim_eb_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=0GXSET89Y5KE2JNJTPFP

I am currently reading the book. Already within the first third of the book, are descriptions of the many biases and thinking short-cuts used by everyones subconcious, that lead the concious mind to draw wrong conclusions. Whilst I am reading about these biases, my thoughts keep returning to hifi reviews, hifi marketing, and hifi auditioning. It becomes ever clearer that many audiophiles manage to allow their subconcious to convince them that amplifier A is better than amplifier B, even when scientifically conducted measurements prove the opposite.

 

The thing is even though the mind takes short cuts it also works in real time and goes through each process in its entirety.

That's why the memory can recall detail you never noticed at the time.

You are your brain.....

On paper the science works fine - real world Its subject to conditions - if you hear a difference there is a difference.