Squeeze linear power supply - Arcam rDAC

acalex

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Hello guys,

I bought a linear power supply explicitely built for the Arcam rDAC and arrived this morning...put some music on and was expecting great improvements over the standard PSU...very disappointed cz I still cannot find any improvement. Maybe my hear is completely untrained but honestly overall the sound looks the same...is there any specific thing I need to listen? I mean, a specific trait that a linear power supply is supposed to make it better? I am not trying to convince myself the purchase was worthed (still have 14 days to send it back) but trying to analyse if I am listening correctly or not!
Thanks
 
A

Anonymous

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I can only suggest that you pick a good quality/well produced track that you are familiar with, and do some A/B comparison listening test using the two power supplies. It mght be that your equipment is not sufficiently revealing to show the improvements, but at the end of the day if you cannot hear the difference send it back. A good track is one that has a combination of:

- bass and treble extremes

- loud and quiet parts (for dynamics)

- drums and acoustic instruments

etc.

There was a recent thread regarding good CDs to audition equipment to...
 

eggontoast

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There is no reason why a linear power supply would sound any better than the switched mode PSU that is supplied with the rDAC.The only improvement would be a placebo and since your not getting this send it back and buy some more music instead ;-)
 

hammill

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eggontoast said:
There is no reason why a linear power supply would sound any better than the switched mode PSU that is supplied with the rDAC.The only improvement would be a placebo and since your not getting this send it back and buy some more music instead ;-)
Seems about right. If you have to try and listen in a special way to hear a difference then it is certainly no improvement when used normally.
 

paradiziac

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Better power supplies do make a difference, it's not "foo". Some high end CD players have the same DAC chips as budget models, but the better power supply on the high end player plays an important part in improving the sound.

The improvement (or not) you may get from the rDac PSU depends on the design of the rDac (internal power regulation circuits etc), and the quality of the 3rd party PSU. Not to mention your ears, the rest of your system, the music etc.

My V-PSU makes a subtle improvement to the V-DAC. It's not a difference that hits you in the face, but over time you appreciate the higher quality sound. Better separation, smoother mids, deeper, tighter bass, clearer highs etc.

That said, if an upgrade component doesn't make a clear difference in your system, it's not worth spending money on.
 

eggontoast

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paradiziac said:
Better power supplies do make a difference, it's not "foo". Some high end CD players have the same DAC chips as budget models, but the better power supply on the high end player plays an important part in improving the sound.
Not sure what foo is....something from the Chinese takeaway ?

I don't disagree with you better power supplies could potentially improve components but, who said the linear one was better than the switch mode one.
 
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Anonymous

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There is no question that the quality of the supply rails to the analogue stages in a DAC are key to the quality of the resulting sound output. What is not clear is whether the quality of the output of the wall wart power supply has any impact on this.

I have not studied the circuit topology of the rDAC, but it is common for DACs to generate mutiple internal supply rails using switch mode circuitry from the input DC supply. No amount of fiddling with the external supply will take the switchers out of the circuit, not that there is anything wrong with switchers in the first place.
 
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Anonymous

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If the proof of the pudding is in the eating, then the proof of a better quality power supply is in the listening :rofl: Spend money to upgrade the power supply commensurate with the improvement in SQ you can hear, ergo: if you can hear no improvement, spend no money.
 

Overdose

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Obviously you got this PSU on recommendation and can return it for a full refund if you are not happy? If not, then you could sell it on the second hand market and hopefully not lose too much money.

The thing is, many people gave you the advice that a PSU will be unlikely to return any noticeable gains and if you wanted better sound, to invest in a better DAC, however, you would probably be better off saving the money you would spend on an expensive DAC and put it towards some better speakers.

You win some, you lose some.
 

paradiziac

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Dr Lodge said:
If the proof of the pudding is in the eating, then the proof of a better quality power supply is in the listening :rofl: Spend money to upgrade the power supply commensurate with the improvement in SQ you can hear, ergo: if you can hear no improvement, spend no money.

:clap:
 

paradiziac

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andy8421 said:
There is no question that the quality of the supply rails to the analogue stages in a DAC are key to the quality of the resulting sound output. What is not clear is whether the quality of the output of the wall wart power supply has any impact on this.

I have not studied the circuit topology of the rDAC, but it is common for DACs to generate mutiple internal supply rails using switch mode circuitry from the input DC supply. No amount of fiddling with the external supply will take the switchers out of the circuit, not that there is anything wrong with switchers in the first place.

Fair point.

Perhaps the rDac does a better internal job that the V-DAC, because in my (and many others') experience a better external PSU does improve the V-DAC. No surprise then that MF sell a V-PSU and Arcam (to my knowledge) don't.

I think Audiolab will offer a PSU upgrade for the M-DAC as well. As to the particular implementation of the upgraded supply, switching/linear/whatever etc. I leave that to the experts!
 

dannycanham

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I don't know anything about that power supply. You may be paying for a linear design over a switching design which may but does not necessarily give a better supply than the £20+ maplins power supplies. They aren't one of the companies that proudly show measurements of the output in comparison.

Basic power supply upgrades to the rDac have been said (by people who have actually tried them) to be capable of giving better control of the lower end, more distinction in the higher frequencies and...I'm not sure how to describe it..more silence around the notes.

You don't have to train your ears or any garbage like that.

Keep it for the maximum time you can. Leave it running for the maximum time you can. Listen to a range of music you are familiar with. If you don't feel you have got your moneys worth return it.
 

Overdose

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"Keep it for the maximum time you can. Leave it running for the maximum time you can. Listen to a range of music you are familiar with. If you don't feel you have got your moneys worth return it."

If the OP hasn't already noticed any improvements, then it's arguable that there is none and it's certainly not worth keeping for a moment longer. It's a PSU and either works or doesn't. In this case, I'd say it works just as well as the Arcam unit, but has now pushed the price of the whole purchase much closer to the Rega DAC, without the benefit of any improvement.
 

dannycanham

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Overdose said:
"Keep it for the maximum time you can. Leave it running for the maximum time you can. Listen to a range of music you are familiar with. If you don't feel you have got your moneys worth return it."

If the OP hasn't already noticed any improvements, then it's arguable that there is none and it's certainly not worth keeping for a moment longer. It's a PSU and either works or doesn't. In this case, I'd say it works just as well as the Arcam unit, but has now pushed the price of the whole purchase much closer to the Rega DAC, without the benefit of any improvement.

Thanks for that pile of garbage.
 

dannycanham

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Take the PSX-R. A well respected, well tested £575 power supply for Cyrus equipment. There are six common outcomes for people who have trialled it.

1) Immediate improvement and worth keeping.

2) Immediate improvement but not worth keeping

3) Improved/qualities revealed over time and worth keeping

4) Improved/qualities revealed over time but not worth keeping

5) No improvement during its trial and gave it back

6) No improvements over the trial and kept it just in case.

Apart from advising number 6, all of those opinions are perfectly valid and numerous. It is worth more than the Rega alone. Why this obsession with a single decent mid-range DAC when there are so many on the market? The rDac has a better chip inside it than the Rega has. It has a better USB stage than the Rega has. It has the Arcam sound which some people look for. There is room for improvement with some of the rDacs components around the chip and the USB stage. If I was to advise a DAC upgrade it would be to look at the step up DACs. Not at another mid range DAC. In which case the getting close to Rega point is worthless.

Now the power supply bought is not a well-respected, well trialled PSU, neither is it proven by measurements. Others have more to back them up, but this one has been chosen. Personally I would never look at anything which has some box described as an "S boost". I would look for a proven well thought out design.

There is nothing to lose by trying it for the time given though. There are more than enough people who have noticed PSUs improve over a few weeks. There are more than enough designers who recommend a few weeks trailing and that the best should come near the end of a two week trial. So even without getting into the argument of whether they imagine the improvement or not. There is nothing to lose by trying it. It could turn out to be a mediocre supply, it could turn out that the current set up cannot get the best out of a quiet supply anyway, it could turn out that the OP was looking for improvements in areas that a PSU won’t improve. In which case the OP has been given the right advice as to not keep it if they cannot hear an improvement but to give it a chance.

I've never chosen or disregarded a piece of hi-fi over an afternoon. Anyone who recommends that practice is giving bad advice.
 

Overdose

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You're more than welcome.

You may lower yourself to personal remarks, but in my opinion, the OP has been ill advised with regards 'upgraded' PSUs.

Not my words that disatisfaction and disappointment is felt, but the OPs and I find it quite likely that the said advice and inevitable outcome after taking it, will have put the OP off of any future such ventures.

It is of course, entirely up to the OP how he chooses to spend his money. I have nothing further to add.
 

John Duncan

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dannycanham said:
Overdose said:
"Keep it for the maximum time you can. Leave it running for the maximum time you can. Listen to a range of music you are familiar with. If you don't feel you have got your moneys worth return it."

If the OP hasn't already noticed any improvements, then it's arguable that there is none and it's certainly not worth keeping for a moment longer. It's a PSU and either works or doesn't. In this case, I'd say it works just as well as the Arcam unit, but has now pushed the price of the whole purchase much closer to the Rega DAC, without the benefit of any improvement.

Thanks for that pile of garbage.

I was about to mod that for attacking other memebers, but am letting you off because you said "thanks".

I'm inclined to agree with overdose :)-o); if acalex hears no difference then there is none for him. That's not to say there wouldn't be for anybody else, but it's his money and they're his ears. And if spending £239 wouldn't make you desperately want something to sound better I don't know what would, so I'm inclined to think he's right. I'd send it back and buy beer.
 
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Anonymous

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The wall wart looks current bound, do I would "look" for bass to improve, however, others have said the the rDAC has

circuitry which nullifies the power supply.

Different subject: my r-DAC sounds dull and lifeless, lack of harmonic detail when using the USB port.

But when I burn discs using the same PC that I serve up the USB tracks thought and then use a DVD player and the co axial input on the rDAC, it sounds really great. Should I consider a USB cable upgrade? Could it be my PC?

Anyone else experience same thing? and/or solved (improved the USB sound) the issue if they did?

------------------------------------------

Arcam r-DAC/Parasound P-3 often I bypass this/Jolida JD801 but sometimes I use a solid state amp/Rythmik F12 sub/BG Z-62 but often I use custom 3 way, soft dome based, towers, I feed the Arcam with digital from a DVD player via the co axial input, I also use the USB input, I sometimes use a REGA P3 with a Grado cart. and the Parasound preamp
 

paradiziac

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paulwelch250 said:
Different subject: my r-DAC sounds dull and lifeless, lack of harmonic detail when using the USB port.

... Should I consider a USB cable upgrade?

Not unless you can try before you buy :rofl:

paulwelch250 said:
Could it be my PC?

Probably.

What's your playback software on the PC? For example, iTunes on Win XP is really bad, I've found it's worse playing lossless files than Spotify or the BBC iPlayer playing compressed music. For best quality, use a player like Foobar or J-River, on Windows 7 if possible.

Could also be a problem of galvanic isolation, the noisy power supply in your computer "polluting" the DAC. There's a review on a US site that mentions such an issue with the rDAC. Try another PC that might be less noisy--trial and error is the only way there, or use an optical connection if you have that option on your PC.
 

acalex

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Wow...some life in the thread :)! Well I read everything and I tried this "adventure" of the linear PSU for two main reasons:

1) I read and re-read that linear was better than switch-mode

2) I bought next door (Netherlands) so I got it for free with 2 weeks trial period. No real financial risk.

My first reaction when I plugged it in was...disappointing. No improvement at all over the given PSU. Of course as somebody said...it might by my system is not able to reveal it or simply my ears are not. But for me this is enough cz I am not planning to do any major upgrade to ampli/speakers for the next 12 months at least. I might consider getting a better DAC at this point...

Still want to wait a full week before sending it back cz the producer said it might need as well 3 days before expressing its full potential...let's see! Got on saturday...if by saturday I am not hearing any improvement I will send it back on Monday. It is not a lot of money...but I would buy quite a lot of music for that amount. Having said that...I still think a good PSU can make a difference.
 

Si Conaugt

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Have to say +1 to the rDAC and Maplin regulated power supply that has been mentioned by others on these pages. I have no idea why it should improve the sound, whether there is a technological or psychological explanation, but it has done and obviously. Maybe there is a lower bar to pass when the upgrade costs £20. I loved it so much, I bought another one for my Squeezebox Touch and found that this made no difference at all!! I use the coax out to my rDAC and would generally say that I'm on the 0's and 1's side of the argument on digital signals. Maybe this has affected my ears or maybe there just isn't any difference. Not sure what the point of all this is other than to say to OP that if you can't hear enough of a difference, send it back and maybe give the Maplin power supply a go. Put the rest towards stuff that you can immediately tell is making a difference - like a nice holiday!
 

DIB

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At the recent Manchester show, Chord Cables were demonstrating their new digital and USB cables. They were using two DACs during the demo, switching between the Arcam DAC and the significantly more expensive Naim DAC. When I spoke to the Chord spokesperson after the demo and asked why, he explained that they found the Arcam's USB stage much better than the Naim and vice versa when it came to the digital stages.

.
 

acalex

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Phil Opian said:
Have to say +1 to the rDAC and Maplin regulated power supply that has been mentioned by others on these pages. I have no idea why it should improve the sound, whether there is a technological or psychological explanation, but it has done and obviously. Maybe there is a lower bar to pass when the upgrade costs £20. I loved it so much, I bought another one for my Squeezebox Touch and found that this made no difference at all!! I use the coax out to my rDAC and would generally say that I'm on the 0's and 1's side of the argument on digital signals. Maybe this has affected my ears or maybe there just isn't any difference. Not sure what the point of all this is other than to say to OP that if you can't hear enough of a difference, send it back and maybe give the Maplin power supply a go. Put the rest towards stuff that you can immediately tell is making a difference - like a nice holiday!

Unfortunately not possible since I do not live in UK (live in Belgium), otherwise I would have tried since I read most of the users who did that could feel some improvement...
 

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