How a power supply works

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I’m very interested in your view as to how we suffer illusions when listening to hi Fi, that affects reliability to discern sounds , say in two cables?

 

[nick8858]

id like fo explore the illusion point of yours if you want to properly debate this. Y

If I thought for one minute you could actually and were interesting in properly debating, I would, but you aren't, so I shall have to pass on your kind offer.

Pity. That could have been interesting, nay amusing.

 

[nick8858]

I’m very interested in your view as to how we suffer illusions when listening to hi Fi, that affects reliability to discern sounds , say in two cables?

The only way you would be interested would be because you would immediately criticise and contradict that view.

 

[jimmy1]

Just read an article on a cable sellers site that said always use an audiophile wall socket, which they sell of course

 

[ellisdj]

Thats deliberate twisting and avoidance - bringing in other conversations into this one because you dont have an answer. leave the Isotek demo out thats nothing to do with this - this is just thoery.

Product A sounds Better than B - however Product B has bling bling and fancy this and that - huge number of people tested sighted think B is better, blind tested they think A is better because A is actually better. All tested ABX fashion - outcome conclusive

What can we draw from that, well many things - One big one is that expectation bias is powerful enough to convince someone something sounds better than something else when clearly it doesnt.

Doesnt mean everyone will hear that every time - but proves its powerful enough to bend reality.

Bearing that in mind everyone who has ever been into hifi - how many people is that a couple of hundred people maybe... a large number of people not a small instance

At some stage they go into a testing situation full of hope and joy - they plug in the shiny new "better" component - expecting better sound and actually hear worse sound.

The only possible outcome there is actually the new product has worse sound and is not better at all, they are lucky the expectation bias didnt over ride the truth like it can do - as proven.

But if 2 products are identical, but the testers think one is better such as in this case (quest cables as the example he thought it was a better product he was plugging in) there is no way the "better" product can sound worse - it can either sound the same which is the truth or it will sound better which is the expectation bias effect.

How can it possibly sound worse, unless it is worse?

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Well yes if it doesn’t support what I’ve allready carefully thought out . Thats the point of debate and argument. You are presenting it for others to look at it, hence others on a forum. Criticising and contradicting another’s view is the point mate.

 

[nick8858]

Criticising and contradicting another’s view is the point

Well thats your area of expertise......mate

 

[cheeseboy]

Thats deliberate twisting and avoidance - bringing in other conversations into this one because you dont have an answer. leave the Isotek demo out thats nothing to do with this - this is just thoery.

not at all. You say you can't dispute the harmon research, so if you believe that, why doesn't it apply to the isotek demo. That's some top level cognitive dissonance right there.

Product A sounds Better than B - however Product B has bling bling and fancy this and that - huge number of people tested sighted think B is better, blind tested they think A is better because A is actually better. All tested ABX fashion - outcome conclusive

What can we draw from that, well many things - One big one is that expectation bias is powerful enough to convince someone something sounds better than something else when clearly it doesnt.

Doesnt mean everyone will hear that every time - but proves its powerful enough to bend reality.

Bearing that in mind everyone who has ever been into hifi - how many people is that a couple of hundred people maybe... a large number of people not a small instance

At some stage they go into a testing situation full of hope and joy - they plug in the shiny new "better" component - expecting better sound and actually hear worse sound.

The only possible outcome there is actually the new product has worse sound and is not better at all, they are lucky the expectation bias didnt over ride the truth like it can do - as proven.

But if 2 products are identical, but the testers think one is better such as in this case (quest cables as the example he thought it was a better product he was plugging in) there is no way the "better" product can sound worse - it can either sound the same which is the truth or it will sound better which is the expectation bias effect.

How can it possibly sound worse, unless it is worse?

I'll try again. Maybe it's a faulty cable. A single person doing a single test, it could be a reason. Unless you are saying the Harmon research is gospel, in which case the isotek demo is a placebo. You can't have it both ways ellis.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Criticising and contradicting another’s view is the point

Well thats your area of expertise......mate

well don’t come on here if you don’t want to debate, but then at the same time engage in debate.

 

[nick8858]

Criticising and contradicting another’s view is the point

Well thats your area of expertise......mate

well don’t come on here if you don’t want to debate, but then at the same time engage in debate.

And you claim you are debating? Is relentless criticism of any and everyone else's point of view debate? , and that no one elses point of view is valid? A little humility here and there is always a good place to be. And maybe agreeing with someone now and again would be good but that would be an interesting development to see.

 

[davedotco]

Thats deliberate twisting and avoidance - bringing in other conversations into this one because you dont have an answer. leave the Isotek demo out thats nothing to do with this - this is just thoery.

Product A sounds Better than B - however Product B has bling bling and fancy this and that - huge number of people tested sighted think B is better, blind tested they think A is better because A is actually better. All tested ABX fashion - outcome conclusive

What can we draw from that, well many things - One big one is that expectation bias is powerful enough to convince someone something sounds better than something else when clearly it doesnt.

Doesnt mean everyone will hear that every time - but proves its powerful enough to bend reality.

Bearing that in mind everyone who has ever been into hifi - how many people is that a couple of hundred people maybe... a large number of people not a small instance

At some stage they go into a testing situation full of hope and joy - they plug in the shiny new "better" component - expecting better sound and actually hear worse sound.

The only possible outcome there is actually the new product has worse sound and is not better at all, they are lucky the expectation bias didnt over ride the truth like it can do - as proven.

But if 2 products are identical, but the testers think one is better such as in this case (quest cables as the example he thought it was a better product he was plugging in) there is no way the "better" product can sound worse - it can either sound the same which is the truth or it will sound better which is the expectation bias effect.

How can it possibly sound worse, unless it is worse?

The most important issue here is that the biases unders discussion here are subconcious and not at all related to your concious thoughts. there are simple tests, like the amplifier test you have referred to, that show expectation bias to be very real and very powerful.

But other effects are much more complex, people read a demonstrators body language for example, this tells them the right answer without a word being said, sometimes just knowing the purpose of the demonstration is enough. In group tests reacting to the group is very powerful and at other times there appear to be no rational basis for a bias, but it is there anyway.

This is why in testing that really matters, a double blind protocol is always followed, not only should the listener not know what he is testing but the person conducting the test should not know either. In an ideal world you would not know what you were testing, tripple blind if you like, but in most cases in hi-fi you know, more or less, what you are listening to.

 

[nick8858]

Thats deliberate twisting and avoidance - bringing in other conversations into this one because you dont have an answer. leave the Isotek demo out thats nothing to do with this - this is just thoery.

Product A sounds Better than B - however Product B has bling bling and fancy this and that - huge number of people tested sighted think B is better, blind tested they think A is better because A is actually better. All tested ABX fashion - outcome conclusive

What can we draw from that, well many things - One big one is that expectation bias is powerful enough to convince someone something sounds better than something else when clearly it doesnt.

Doesnt mean everyone will hear that every time - but proves its powerful enough to bend reality.

Bearing that in mind everyone who has ever been into hifi - how many people is that a couple of hundred people maybe... a large number of people not a small instance

At some stage they go into a testing situation full of hope and joy - they plug in the shiny new "better" component - expecting better sound and actually hear worse sound.

The only possible outcome there is actually the new product has worse sound and is not better at all, they are lucky the expectation bias didnt over ride the truth like it can do - as proven.

But if 2 products are identical, but the testers think one is better such as in this case (quest cables as the example he thought it was a better product he was plugging in) there is no way the "better" product can sound worse - it can either sound the same which is the truth or it will sound better which is the expectation bias effect.

How can it possibly sound worse, unless it is worse?

The most important issue here is that the biases unders discussion here are subconcious and not at all related to your concious thoughts. there are simple tests, like the amplifier test you have referred to, that show expectation bias to be very real and very powerful.

But other effects are much more complex, people read a demonstrators body language for example, this tells them the right answer without a word being said, sometimes just knowing the purpose of the demonstration is enough. In group tests reacting to the group is very powerful and at other times there appear to be no rational basis for a bias, but it is there anyway.

This is why in testing that really matters, a double blind protocol is always followed, not only should the listener not know what he is testing but the person conducting the test should not know either. In an ideal world you would not know what you were testing, tripple blind if you like, but in most cases in hi-fi you know, more or less, what you are listening to.

Excellent point and well made

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Criticising and contradicting another’s view is the point

Well thats your area of expertise......mate

well don’t come on here if you don’t want to debate, but then at the same time engage in debate.

And you claim you are debating? Is relentless criticism of any and everyone else's point of view debate? , and that no one elses point of view is valid? A little humility here and there is always a good place to be. And maybe agreeing with someone now and again would be good but that would be an interesting development to see.

peoples view are valid, when valid, but I haven’t seen much of validity yet of your side of the argument, which incidentally is based on simply trying one cable just because it fits. What I can agree on is audio effects happen, but not in hi Fi, and I think a lot is not explained by electrical principles. But what critisism are you referring to, and what is humility with no sense. If it’s wrong people get passionate about it. That’s fine.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

If you want to have a telephone chat about it I’d gladky do so, if you want a debate.....

 

[Native_bon]

Thats deliberate twisting and avoidance - bringing in other conversations into this one because you dont have an answer.  leave the Isotek demo out thats nothing to do with this - this is just thoery.

 

Product A sounds Better than B - however Product B has bling bling and fancy this and that - huge number of people tested sighted think B is better, blind tested they think A is better because A is actually better.  All tested ABX fashion - outcome conclusive

 

What can we draw from that, well many things - One big one is that expectation bias is powerful enough to convince someone something sounds better than something else when clearly it doesnt.

Doesnt mean everyone will hear that every time - but proves its powerful enough to bend reality.

 

Bearing that in mind everyone who has ever been into hifi - how many people is that a couple of hundred people maybe... a large number of people not a small instance

 

At some stage they go into a testing situation full of hope and joy - they plug in the shiny new "better" component - expecting better sound and actually hear worse sound.

The only possible outcome there is actually the new product has worse sound and is not better at all, they are lucky the expectation bias didnt over ride the truth like it can do - as proven.

 

But if 2 products are identical, but the testers think one is better such as in this case (quest cables as the example he thought it was a better product he was plugging in) there is no way the "better" product can sound worse - it can either sound the same which is the truth or it will sound better which is the expectation bias effect.

 

How can it possibly sound worse, unless it is worse?

Talk about expectation bias.. Lol. I think some are bias that expectation bias does not always occur. Your explanation is as simple as it gets.

 

[nick8858]

If you want to have a telephone chat about it I’d gladky do so, if you want a debate.....

You know that personal details cannot be revealed on here so why go down that red herring of a route. If I did have a phone call I'd reverse the charges though as I'd be on for hours - listening probably more than talking

 

[ellisdj]

I'll try again. Maybe it's a faulty cable. A single person doing a single test, it could be a reason. Unless you are saying the Harmon research is gospel, in which case the isotek demo is a placebo. You can't have it both ways ellis.

This is a stretch and a contradiction at the same time - a cable that works perfectly - how can it be faulty? We know it works perfectly as Quest used it to power different components his amp and streamer and both work perfectlty. It cant be faulty by definition - thats a big stretch.

The contradiction is I am taking Harmons research as gospel - its the only correctly done, facilities built for ABX testing I know of - do you know of any others, or any others that give a different outcome?? Please share if you do. So if it has to be scientifically proven to be real then yes this is gospel hence my bringing it up

Your trying to use what I said yesterday in a different thread - not today I might add - I brought up the number for the Isotek demo because 49/50 is a significant number for even a placebo test. A plecebo test you would expect more like 50/50 not 95% and you know this to be true. Doesnt mean its gospel jus thow it went down.

But the Harman work is as gospel as it gets for hifi I am sure you will agree. So we cant overlook what their work shows and it shows lot of things about lots of things.

It doesnt ever show that expectation bias works in the reverse - i.e. people think somehting is the best but dont choose it in a sighted test - it doesnt show - 30 years of testing people and that is not the conclusion.

Therefore in a A/B test if both are identical they are either percieved as such or the one that is thought of as "better" is perceived as such.

BigH tested his amp in the wall and in an ikea strip and it sounded the same - so we dont always hear a difference when we make a change.

But its also not proven for us to hear worse when we perceive its better - only IF ITS WORSE - therefore using what we have learned from science one must be better than the other in Quest test - it has to be

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

If you want to have a telephone chat about it I’d gladky do so, if you want a debate.....

You know that personal details cannot be revealed on here so why go down that red herring of a route. If I did have a phone call I'd reverse the charges though as I'd be on for hours - listening probably more than talking

you may be but equally it could be the other way around.

 

[nick8858]

If you want to have a telephone chat about it I’d gladky do so, if you want a debate.....

Sorry but listening is an art sir. Talking is not. I learnt to listen long before I could talk.

You know that personal details cannot be revealed on here so why go down that red herring of a route. If I did have a phone call I'd reverse the charges though as I'd be on for hours - listening probably more than talking

you may be but equally it could be the other way around.

 

[jimmy1]

Prophet on a peddle iron! *dash1*

 

[daveh75]

actually, some people do. Here it is, in black and white for you....

I'm going to get a 2 in 1 vaccine - One for Bias and one for cable threads. *wacko*

Just wait til you see the new, rational Cno. *dance4*

*biggrin* make sure it's double blind tested though. *lol*

oh wait. vaccines are science, so that's bad right? Somebody help me, I don't know anymore *crazy*

Please don't encourage him, and allow him to ruin Andy's objective thread.

Edited by mods. Please stick to house rules.

 

[ellisdj]

Thats very harsh and uncalled for, embarrasing comments actually when you think about it and a thread being ruined by argument is common place for this forum - you have to take it when you give it - and its given a lot.

 

[CnoEvil]

Edited by mods.

 

[jimmy1]

They will be there too i reckon tis the internet*biggrin*

 

[Gray]

Given the apparent popularity of my explanation of why a star connected mains strip can't possibly make any difference to sound quality, I thought I would extend my occasional series to Power Supplies. Given the breadth of the subject, this may have to be a multi part posting.

Linear audio amplifiers of the type found in home hifi need a stable and clean DC supply to operate. The problem is that most amplifiers are mains powered, and mains is AC. Mains is too high a voltage to be useful for home hifi, and also has the real possibility of killing you.

So, in no particular order, a power supply has to:

1. Isolate the equipment from the mains

2. Drop the mains voltage to a suitable level

3. Turn the AC into stable DC

4. Filter out any noise

As any follower of Nikola Tesla will know, he was the proponent of the 'multi phase AC system' which was in competition with Edison's DC system - the so called war of the currents. For various technical reasons, home mains AC supply isn't multi phase, it is single phase. For those who can remember their physics, a single phase mains waveform displayed on a 'scope looks just like a simple sine wave (because it is).

Now this is where the first 'inconvenient truth' shows up for the mains cable brigade. That mains sinewave crosses through zero twice every mains cycle. At that point, there is no power at all coming down the mains wire - if you were quick enough with a voltmeter, and could connect and disconnect it just at the zero crossing point, it would measure ZERO volts.

Hmmn. So twice every mains cycle (100 times per second), there is a period of time where NO power comes down the mains lead at all. What if (Sir) RIngo Starr was bashing his cymbal at just the point the mains crossed zero - would there be silence out of the speaker? Experience would indicate that you can still hear the cymbal, so either (Sir) Ringo has excellent timing and misses the zero crossing point, or there is something else going on.

I will explain in the next post what is going on, but the first question for the cable brigade is if there are significant periods of time when the cable is not conducting at all, how can it possibly effect transient response during the period there is no power coming down the cable?

I know all that, but what about the beneficial effects of cable lifters on mains leads?