How a power supply works

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I’m just interested in what’s probably going on to hear differences.

well you could start by trying to rule out biases and placebo before you start on the nitty gritty. I know you seem to hold the view that you are immune, but you are not, nobody is. These things have been scientifically proven again and again without fail. So, if you want to approach it scientifically as you keep claiming you do, start with the science that's already out there and had been proven. No doubt you'll now just dismiss it all out of hand without acutally presenting any scientific proof whatsoever as you usually do and then ramble off in to one of your narcissistic incoherent rants to back up what you say in your in own head.

there is no bias. Like I said I’ve taken off the two power cables on the power amps as they did undesired changes to sound. So it’s not like I want it to be better for the sake of it.

Bias in hi fi hasn’t been scientifically proven, that’s not to say it might exist in some situations. I think the hearing test one I gave is very persuasive, if a doctor tells you it’s better and the same device, bias will kick in probably. There are no proper scientific tests in hi Fi. Nobody has the inclination like more important societal issues.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I await your reply Andy to my earlier posts please.

 

[cheeseboy]

there is no bias. Like I said I’ve taken off the two power cables on the power amps as they did undesired changes to sound. So it’s not like I want it to be better for the sake of it.

Bias in hi fi hasn’t been scientifically proven, that’s not to say it might exist in some situations. I think the hearing test one I gave is very persuasive, if a doctor tells you it’s better and the same device, bias will kick in probably. There are no proper scientific tests in hi Fi. Nobody has the inclination like more important societal issues.

please, stop it. Your spouting so much BS now it's very embarassing for you.

 

[cheeseboy]

Cheeseboy - noone thinks their immune to anything,

actually, some people do. Here it is, in black and white for you....

https://www.whathifi.com/comment/1072317#comment-1072317

"Bias doesn’t happen when there is no reason to be fooled or to confirm bias to ourselves. Why on earth would I submit to bias, if it sounds worse or not as good, for the sake of shelling out hundreds. "

edit - he's just claimed it again. So, sorry ellis, Quest is obviously on another plane of existance to us mere mortals as he's immune to these things that have been scientficially proven again and again.

thats never what its about but what would do you do as an individual - all the best sound you have ever heard - from a huge variety of listening has been with systems with good cables and mains products in them - the best sound I have ever heard had the best mains products in the system - thats the truth, I am not the only person who thought that about the sound of that system.

By compare the systems you have heard that havent sounded any where near as great havent used the cables and mains products mentioned or hasnt used them to the same level.

Then you think whatever influences are at play here - this way sounds best so why I would I look to do it any other way - when this way sounds best?

Thats whats important here fundamentally - creating that great sound

that's great, but it's nothing to do with what I said. Quest is on about doing things scientifically as to why things could sound different, so I'm telling him the steps that you can do that. I think you have crossed wires on this (no pun intended).

 

[CnoEvil]

actually, some people do. Here it is, in black and white for you....

I'm going to get a 2 in 1 vaccine - One for Bias and one for cable threads. *wacko*

Just wait til you see the new, rational Cno. *dance4*

 

[cheeseboy]

actually, some people do. Here it is, in black and white for you....

I'm going to get a 2 in 1 vaccine - One for Bias and one for cable threads. *wacko*

Just wait til you see the new, rational Cno. *dance4*

*biggrin* make sure it's double blind tested though. *lol*

oh wait. vaccines are science, so that's bad right? Somebody help me, I don't know anymore *crazy*

 

[CnoEvil]

*biggrin* make sure it's double blind tested though. *lol*

No, because I want to see the benefit.

 

[ellisdj]

*biggrin* make sure it's double blind tested though. *lol*

No, because I want to see the benefit.

second funniest comment of the day so far good skills

 

[andyjm]

Given the apparent popularity of my explanation of why a star connected mains strip can't possibly make any difference to sound quality, I thought I would extend my occasional series to Power Supplies. Given the breadth of the subject, this may have to be a multi part posting.

Linear audio amplifiers of the type found in home hifi need a stable and clean DC supply to operate. The problem is that most amplifiers are mains powered, and mains is AC. Mains is too high a voltage to be useful for home hifi, and also has the real possibility of killing you.

So, in no particular order, a power supply has to:

1. Isolate the equipment from the mains

2. Drop the mains voltage to a suitable level

3. Turn the AC into stable DC

4. Filter out any noise

As any follower of Nikola Tesla will know, he was the proponent of the 'multi phase AC system' which was in competition with Edison's DC system - the so called war of the currents. For various technical reasons, home mains AC supply isn't multi phase, it is single phase. For those who can remember their physics, a single phase mains waveform displayed on a 'scope looks just like a simple sine wave (because it is).

Now this is where the first 'inconvenient truth' shows up for the mains cable brigade. That mains sinewave crosses through zero twice every mains cycle. At that point, there is no power at all coming down the mains wire - if you were quick enough with a voltmeter, and could connect and disconnect it just at the zero crossing point, it would measure ZERO volts.

Hmmn. So twice every mains cycle (100 times per second), there is a period of time where NO power comes down the mains lead at all. What if (Sir) RIngo Starr was bashing his cymbal at just the point the mains crossed zero - would there be silence out of the speaker? Experience would indicate that you can still hear the cymbal, so either (Sir) Ringo has excellent timing and misses the zero crossing point, or there is something else going on.

I will explain in the next post what is going on, but the first question for the cable brigade is if there are significant periods of time when the cable is not conducting at all, how can it possibly effect transient response during the period there is no power coming down the cable?

I am afraid that I have to go and do some work, so part 2 will have to wait a day or so. Just to add some spice to the discussion, in real life the mains cable actually conducts power for less than 5% of the mains cycle (depending on load - I will explain further), so lets noodle on that while we think about the effect that a mains cables has on amp performance.

 

[cheeseboy]

*biggrin* make sure it's double blind tested though. *lol*

No, because I want to see the benefit.

make sure your mirror cost enough then, otherwise you won't be able to tell

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I’d like to hear your explanation, even though I think you are probably nowhere near a definitive answer. TBC

 

[ellisdj]

why is it always amps thats used as an example - why not dacs and streamers?

 

[CnoEvil]

make sure your mirror cost enough then, otherwise you won't be able to tell

I will use 2 opposing mirrors, so I can see it an infinite number of times. *preved*

 

[cheeseboy]

make sure your mirror cost enough then, otherwise you won't be able to tell

I will use 2 opposing mirrors, so I can see it an infinite number of times. *preved*

mind

blown

*biggrin*

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Meanwhile. I contacted Galen and asked him to come into this debate if he wants to. I’m interested in the point Andy posed in first post and my subsequent questions. Anyone like to add anything on this?

 

[ellisdj]

cheeseboy expectation bias - we made a change so we hear a change thats what your underlying thoughts are, thats fair enough - considering..

The only properly done blind testing I know of Harmon work - they tested the Harmon staff and by all accounts the staff preferred the more expensive luxurious speakers compared to lesser speakers in a sighted test but when blind they actually preferred different speakers. Sighted they thought better sounded better

So by that mechanism how can it work in reverse - I just plugged a super duper mains cable into my dac and it sounds amazing.

I get another super duper mains cable plug it into my amp and ofcourse I expect it to sound amazing - but now it sounds worse and I want to take it out

Thats what quest is trying to say happened tro him - how can that be explained when we already know the opposite should have happened?

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Exactamundo. Bingo Ellis.

bias in reverse. What a headf—k that is and totally blows Ill conceived views out the water.

Im actually listening to a cable now (atlas hyper 2.0) and it is worse than chord. Not because I want it to be, because I’ve already shown impartiality by not buying a cable that makes thing worse, and those cables were over £300.

 

[ellisdj]

Make a change hear a change - that part of the bias is explained - its the second part how can you explain that really because it should follow the path of better = sounds better as that is what is scientifically proven to happen in the Harmon testing they did - all done properly

 

[cheeseboy]

cheeseboy expectation bias - we made a change so we hear a change thats what your underlying thoughts are, thats fair enough - considering..

The only properly done blind testing I know of Harmon work - they tested the Harmon staff and by all accounts the staff preferred the more expensive luxurious speakers compared to lesser speakers in a sighted test but when blind they actually preferred different speakers. Sighted they thought better sounded better

So by that mechanism how can it work in reverse - I just plugged a super duper mains cable into my dac and it sounds amazing.

I get another super duper mains cable plug it into my amp and ofcourse I expect it to sound amazing - but now it sounds worse and I want to take it out

Thats what quest is trying to say happened tro him - how can that be explained when we already know the opposite should have happened?

sorry ellis it's not. He's saying that bias doesn't apply to him. It does. That's not how it works. Please don't try and make excuses for him.

 

[davedotco]

cheeseboy expectation bias - we made a change so we hear a change thats what your underlying thoughts are, thats fair enough - considering..

The only properly done blind testing I know of Harmon work - they tested the Harmon staff and by all accounts the staff preferred the more expensive luxurious speakers compared to lesser speakers in a sighted test but when blind they actually preferred different speakers. Sighted they thought better sounded better

So by that mechanism how can it work in reverse - I just plugged a super duper mains cable into my dac and it sounds amazing.

I get another super duper mains cable plug it into my amp and ofcourse I expect it to sound amazing - but now it sounds worse and I want to take it out

Thats what quest is trying to say happened tro him - how can that be explained when we already know the opposite should have happened?

Expectation bias works at a subconcious level.

What you think your expectations are at the time of doing the test is quite irrelevant, you can not control your subconcious thoughts, that is why they are called, errr, subconcious.

 

[cheeseboy]

Make a change hear a change - that part of the bias is explained - its the second part how can you explain that really because it should follow the path of better = sounds better as that is what is scientifically proven to happen in the Harmon testing they did - all done properly

again, that's not how it works.

 

[ellisdj]

Thats is not what is proven to happen in hifi Dave - the Harmon study proved that if even experienced people sighted think its better sighted it will sound better.

That is proven

 

[Oldphrt]

why is it always amps thats used as an example - why not dacs and streamers?

They have regulation on all the supply lines but amplifiers often don't for the output stages.

 

[Oldphrt]

Thats is not what is proven to happen in hifi Dave - the Harmon study proved that if even experienced people sighted think its better sighted it will sound better.

That is proven

But then it's just a placebo effect, and all that would be required is a bit of bling fitted on an ordinary cable.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I must pass out then ? to decide at an unconscious level I dont like the effects of power cables. Or that having made a decision I don’t know how I came to that as it was unconscious, and I was out.

You don’t think subconscious thought is affected by concious thought. What are dreams?