Speaker cable

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

There´s nothing fancy or complicated about it.

If we're talking about how we perceive depth, the information is obviously in there and could be measured. But how exactly do we do that? Not saying it's not possible, but it's a lot more difficult than measuring frequency response etc. How do we separate reflected or echoing sound from the original, particularly in the higher pitched sounds that help us locate things. You'd need an algorithm to do that, which means somebody has to decide how it's done. That's a step removed from the objectivity that is being suggested should be able to be applied.

Like I say, not saying it's impossible, but I think it is actually a pretty complex task. Albeit one that our brains have evolved to do effortlessly.

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

If we're talking about how we perceive depth, the information is obviously in there and could be measured. But how exactly do we do that? Not saying it's not possible, but it's a lot more difficult than measuring frequency response etc. How do we separate reflected or echoing sound from the original, particularly in the higher pitched sounds that help us locate things. You'd need an algorithm to do that, which means somebody has to decide how it's done. That's a step removed from the objectivity that is being suggested should be able to be applied.

Like I say, not saying it's impossible, but I think it is actually a pretty complex task. Albeit one that our brains have evolved to do effortlessly.

If you´d be comparing 2 sets, or a combination (same amp, different speakers, same speakers with different amps), you measure the equipment and the room.
The differences would become visible and one would be able to say what is causing it.

Examples of measures of the hardware:
- Distortion, noise floor, frequency response

Examples of the measures of the room:
- Reflections, reverberation, frequency response, standing waves

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I'm not talking about a comparison - just talking about how soundstage depth, acoustic etc would be measured. I know it will all boil down to fidelity, but the implication of some of the posts made thus far is that this can be measured - and if it can be, it must be able to be measured in isolation. So rather than broad-brush terms like distortion, what exactly are we measuring that will tell us how well kit does this job?

I'm not convinced that anyone here (certainly including me!) knows.

 

[Al ears]

I'm not talking about a comparison - just talking about how soundstage depth, acoustic etc would be measured. I know it will all boil down to fidelity, but the implication of some of the posts made thus far is that this can be measured - and if it can be, it must be able to be measured in isolation. So rather than broad-brush terms like distortion, what exactly are we measuring that will tell us how well kit does this job?

I'm not convinced that anyone here (certainly including me!) knows.

to my mind soundstage depth is perceived not produced so impossible to measure as everyone will hear something different.

 

[davidf]

I'm not convinced that anyone here (certainly including me!) knows.

But they do know, as they're men of science, and science knows (and can measure) everything. Google/AI says otherwise, but who's going to believe Google/AI?

 

[davidf]

to my mind soundstage depth is perceived not produced so impossible to measure as everyone will hear something different.

But it's there, whether we can hear it or not. It's not like me listening to Brian May's guitar solos and hearing two amorous cats.

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

I'm not convinced that anyone here (certainly including me!) knows.

If you´re saying that what actually needs to be measured is the person listening, and trying to find out what is it that they´re hearing and perceiving:

Brain: there are several options, an MRI is one of them
Hearing: audiometer is an option

 

[woodbar]

It would be interesting - trying to listen to Brahms whilst in an extremely noisy MRI machine 😵

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

It would be interesting - trying to listen to Brahms whilst in an extremely noisy MRI machine 😵

Well, some people seem to have trouble with any kind of objective measurement but don´t even consider that maybe the most important factor in play, it´s their brain playing tricks on them when listening to music.
It´s as they never heard of optical illusions and that the same exists with our hearing and our brains reacting to it.

Auditory Illusions - How your ears can be fooled | hear.com

Are your ears fooling you? You might be experiencing an auditory illusion. Learn about the McGurk Effect, The Shepard Illusion, and the Tritone Paradox.

www.hear.com

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

If you´re saying that what actually needs to be measured is the person listening, and trying to find out what is it that they´re hearing and perceiving:

Definitely not saying that - I suspect that measuring how someone perceives the sounds that they hear is beyond where we are now. Just observing that quantifying how well a give setup reproduces depth and acoustic in objective terms seems like a big ask.

 

[RTHerringbone]

I'm obviously missing several things here, but the desire to objectively measure things is fine, but what does it actually translate to in terms of listening experience?

It's why I just can't subscribe to the data obsession (and I work in a technical, data-led role) when it relates to audio. Just because a set of headphones measure better out of the box against a general preference curve doesn't mean that they're "better" or that I'd prefer the sound.

Even if we could objectively measure things like soundstage and assign them a value, what does that even translate to for listener A versus listener B? What is a soundstage rating of 6 versus 12? It's just an ordinal scale in my head and that (for me) immediately dilutes its application in this field.

 

[Al ears]

But it's there, whether we can hear it or not. It's not like me listening to Brian May's guitar solos and hearing two amorous cats.

I am not suggesting it's not there.......

 

[woodbar]

Well, some people seem to have trouble with any kind of objective measurement but don´t even consider that maybe the most important factor in play, it´s their brain playing tricks on them when listening to music.
It´s as they never heard of optical illusions and that the same exists with our hearing and our brains reacting to it.

Auditory Illusions - How your ears can be fooled | hear.com

Are your ears fooling you? You might be experiencing an auditory illusion. Learn about the McGurk Effect, The Shepard Illusion, and the Tritone Paradox.

www.hear.com

Yes, I always do explore objective reviews/tests before buying any piece of equipment which enables me to decide whether it is likely to satisfy my requirements or not. The second stage is actually auditioning the item to verify as measurements do not tell you the whole story.

My perception as to which item, A or B sounds better may be totally opposite to the next person who will pick B as having the better sound. This maybe our brains "playing tricks", or as I would prefer to call it a perception of what you are hearing, but does this make any individuals choice wrong? You may not agree with their conclusion or their reasoning but please don't continually tell them they are misguided.

For example, I just don't understand many abstract art offerings, with one or two exceptions, and yet some of it is lauded and hugely expensive. Quite often I think a 3 year old with a paint set could have achieved a similar result! Is that my eyes playing tricks, my brain or the eye/brain communication differences between me and the next person?

In my view, science does not know and cannot measure everything, yet, and probably never will!

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

Guys, all nice and well.

I´m stepping out, we´re going circles. No point staying.

Be all well, enjoy your music and your equipment.