Question Sould the TT always be the star of the show?

[Hifiver]

I have a £2,000 turntable, excluding the cost of the cartridge.

I have been considering upgrading to the next model up in the range, £4,000, but my dealer has suggested I may get better sound or prefer to spend the money on an amplifier.

Does your set-up have a component which costs more or is a higher level than your turntable?

 

[DougK1]

All depends on how much value you place on vinyl replay. My amp is over twice the cost of my turntable and I'm more than happy with the performance of both so see no need to upgrade either in the coming years. However, what I did notice with the change of amp and CDP is that digital can sound just as good as analogue, so much so that I seldom use the turntable now.

 

[Halulu]

Hi Doug,
How do you define "just as good ass"? It's different, isn't it? And isn't that a worthy pursuit? Searching for that elusive analogue sound?

 

[Halulu]

As good as. - ach! Autocorrect!

 

[DougK1]

Hi Doug,
How do you define "just as good ass"? It's different, isn't it? And isn't that a worthy pursuit? Searching for that elusive analogue sound?

Remove the artefacts from vinyl playback and I doubt I could tell the difference in a blind test. Not sure whether it was my amp or CDP which brought the two mediums so close together but this is my personal experience with my current kit. For me my search is at an end, no need to pursue any further 🙂

 

[Revolutions]

Assuming your turntable has a decent power supply & tone arm, you’ll get way more benefit from looking at the cartridge &/or other components imo.

 

[A-Line]

I have a £2,000 turntable, excluding the cost of the cartridge.

I have been considering upgrading to the next model up in the range, £4,000, but my dealer has suggested I may get better sound or prefer to spend the money on an amplifier.

Does your set-up have a component which costs more or is a higher level than your turntable?

Sounds like your hifi dealer needs to make a sale on a amp...

My first LP12(1983-2006) with Ittok tonearm I had a ReVox B780 receiver for power, Linn Sara speakers, and ReVox B77 MKII tape deck. I mostly used cheap Grado moving iron or moving magnet pickups and it sounded great. My LP12 of that era cost slightly more than the speakers and the tape deck but not more than the receiver. I still have the ReVox receiver & tape deck but sold the speakers and turntable.

In 2006 I started over and decided that I wanted a CD player. Sold the old LP12 and bought a McIntosh MCD 201 CD/SACD player with a McIntosh MC2102 tube amp and Spendor S8e speakers. McIntosh CD players have a active volume control that allows straight connection to a amp so that lasted until 2010 at which time I purchased a new McIntosh MCD500 CD/SACD player which will remain. I wanted a tuner for this system and didn't find a suitable tube preamp until 2010. Here the CD player is about the same price as my tube amp.

In 2007 I started over with a new analog system that includes a McIntosh MA6500 integrated amp new LP12 Majik table. I've since upgraded the table to Radikal D power supply, Keel, Ekos SE tonearm, and now the Karousel bearing. I didn't like the Linn Urika phono stage so that was omitted.
My current LP12 with the EAR 324 phono stage is about 5 times the cost of my McIntosh MA6500 integrated amp excluding the phono pickup.

Bottom line: If you like the way your hifi sounds then spend your hard earned money on something else. A better amp may reveal more short comings of your table, change tones, or make things worse. Trial and error is indicated if you wish to go the route of a better amp.
Then the question becomes: "What is better? "
After all quality of sound is open to interpretation of each individual and the phrase "Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beholder" certainly applies. 💡

 

[Stuart83]

All depends on how much value you place on vinyl replay. My amp is over twice the cost of my turntable and I'm more than happy with the performance of both so see no need to upgrade either in the coming years. However, what I did notice with the change of amp and CDP is that digital can sound just as good as analogue, so much so that I seldom use the turntable now.

I think the the first sentence is exactly right.

It all depends on what one prefers.
Sonically I find CD king inline with the recent poll but I also like the tactility of a record especially it seems with an ever expanding collection of classical.

I've always been one to prefer the ownership and collection aspect of physical copies so streaming isn't something I spend much time with other than cataloguing things to buy on CD or sporadically record if the price is right.

 

[Rodolfo]

It was when I was 12; since then my music in many forms has always starred, mattered most.

 

[spl84]

All depends on how much value you place on vinyl replay. My amp is over twice the cost of my turntable and I'm more than happy with the performance of both so see no need to upgrade either in the coming years. However, what I did notice with the change of amp and CDP is that digital can sound just as good as analogue, so much so that I seldom use the turntable now.

There is no such thing as "digital sound" it's always converted back to analogue before you hear it. Therefore analogue is always king! 😆

 

[DougK1]

There is no such thing as "digital sound" it's always converted back to analogue before you hear it. Therefore analogue is always king! 😆

If you're trying to split hairs or score points, go ahead, no skin off my nose. If it's meant to be a joke then try harder 🙂

 

[Rui]

i do have always a turntable in any of my systems as i have a lot of records well kept and it seems to me that cds weren´t well recorded when turning them old LP´s to CD´s, i have some recent turntables and cartridges but i find them to be not so good as older material i own, this also refering to the cartridges, and they were expensive but today the price is also high but seems not so good as some older ones , the only turntable i bought in the 90´s was a TD2001 and it far better than the RP-10 i bought last december(for years i´ve been listening to modern turntables and this RP-10 seemed to my very good and it is), both have great cartridges but the thorens still seems to sound better also in compability between several types of recordings, and yes all in analog or one would hear a type of sound like when in early 80´s the spectrum 48K used to sound when charging on it a game

 

[Rui]

If you're trying to split hairs or score points, go ahead, no skin off my nose. If it's meant to be a joke then try harder 🙂

well i think it´s good enough as we all are today used to hear everyday which is better? analog or digital sound, and it shows that analog will be always ,only the source needs to be converted to analog if digital , as the run for DAC´s to better have a good convertion from digital to analog but why don´t improve the internal dac of one´s cd player it´s cheaper and more efective, when i say cd player i say the same to other digital sources, as the DAT and minidisc that either than the cd player i also have in my systems

 

[A-Line]

i do have always a turntable in any of my systems as i have a lot of records well kept and it seems to me that cds weren´t well recorded when turning them old LP´s to CD´s, i have some recent turntables and cartridges but i find them to be not so good as older material i own, this also refering to the cartridges, and they were expensive but today the price is also high but seems not so good as some older ones , the only turntable i bought in the 90´s was a TD2001 and it far better than the RP-10 i bought last december(for years i´ve been listening to modern turntables and this RP-10 seemed to my very good and it is), both have great cartridges but the thorens still seems to sound better also in compability between several types of recordings, and yes all in analog or one would hear a type of sound like when in early 80´s the spectrum 48K used to sound when charging on it a game

I started with digital later than most. Bought my first CD player in 2006. I upgraded to a better CD/SACD player in 2010 with a McIntosh MCD500 CD/SACD player which I currently have and will keep permanently.

In general I have found that CD/SACD's produced prior to the year 2000 don't sound as good as those produced after the year 2000. So all of my CD/SACD's in my inventory are post 2000.

Just my opinions.

 

[Al ears]

Unfortunately many don't get vinyl for a good reason. Ultimately the quality of the LP itself is the overriding factor. You can spend out on your LP12s and add various upgrades that do little other than increase Linns bank account then add the best tonearm and cartridge you can afford but if the quality of the vinyl you intend to play is substandard then all this money spent is pointless
I have got as far as I intend to go when it comes to vinyl replay equipment and any future spending goes on making sure I only buy quality records from the best producers of vinyl.
Admittedly great quality vinyl doesn't come cheap but it's a darn sight cheaper than paying out thousands on upgrades if you then insist on playing sub par LPs.
So perhaps, in a way, your dealer is correct and money spent on amp or elsewhere is perhaps money wel spent.

 

[spl84]

If you're trying to split hairs or score points, go ahead, no skin off my nose. If it's meant to be a joke then try harder 🙂

I thought it was obvious that it was meant to be funny, BUT it is also a statement of fact.

 

[Stuart83]

There is no such thing as "digital sound" it's always converted back to analogue before you hear it. Therefore analogue is always king! 😆

The digital sound indeed exists "inherently" through a much lower signal to lower noise ratio and linearity.
Irrespective of conversation back to analogue this difference is what you hear abundantly from the prior digitisation of media giving a cleaner more accurate sound.

There are other reasons but the two prominent differences are in performance between the two methods are the bandwidth and the signal-to-noise ratio (S/N ratio)

 

[Rui]

i think all here have a right point but spread by all coments not all are totally right and not all are totally wrong, all contributed to better understanding of what is the best sounding source today.

I only think that cds not the cd players or SACD that is nothing that was promissed when being developed ,

it should be the correction of what compact discs have as a huge defect ,the sound isn´t acurate ,some sound really bad but some do really sound good but if the cd sound is good how many times more would better sound the record or vinyl,

no matter how much money one spent in his cd player and DAC´s the cd itself shouldn´t be considered hi-fi as all levels and separation of channels and equalization and frequency´s heard on the music while being recorded are destroyd and still we have records that are faithfull to the hard work in a studio,

i think it resumes all ,digital today is more advanced but is it advanced as analog that is 100% correct while played or recorded in the best studios of this world

and i´m not an audiophile ,is in my opinion not a person who cares about music but sound they listen to the best sounding Lp´s but not that it is a taste but only hear it if perfectelly sounding,

it could be rock, pop, classical, jazz but no matter if the music is good to our hearing but only if it sounds good,

so today might be mettalica next day mght be the bird, or charlie parker and next day might be britney spears or even astor piazolla,next day could be monzart strings concerts, a new version of the hundreds of releases already done,

if i like a song and if originally was recorded with hiss that doesn´t matter to me ,i do have a lot of components at home but to hear the music it gives me pleasure to listen to, not a last perfect released recording of whatever. i think i´m a music enthusiast,

i tried to play, but never good enough in all instruments so i hear it and listen to what others that made or make good music ,no matter if they have a degree in a music school but if the composition is more atractive to me, i´ll hear it for sure.

Even stranger, when i know a person that as good equipment and as aceptable taste in music but then i understand they do not know a word in english and i ask them ,why do you listen to this , the reply is "i like the way it sounds "i acept it and think to myself ,

music as in modern music not only the way instruments are played, but a lot or all have a comunication or feelings expressed that is composition ,the music and the words ,

is all that matters to me and why i listen to music everyday while doing anything , this since i was a young boy ´till today that i´m not that old, but have more than half a century and with it many diferent kinds of music i heard through out my life,

i started with a late 60´s rceiver and turntable from Pioneer also a reel deck from 1970 akai model the crossfield X-165D , the speakers were from philips

and how amazing good they sound today looking rotten with more modern power amplifiers and the shape seems to not make the box benefit the woofer and tweeter but it sounds amazing good,

the turntable as i have all components i gathered all my life stills sounds better than most of the new turntables between 1.000€ and 2.000€ and it´s a 68 PL-51 or 43 with orignal cartridge,

not sure which was the first but they look-a-like, so i think it matters more discuss the quality of what we hear and also diferent opinions of what is best but each had a unique life so not all have the same tastes, to end analogue to home listening is still the best, in the 70´s there were already digital tools for studio recordings,

but the end work till late 90´s was analogue only the cd was digital as end format and i do know some Lp´s were already full recorded in digital but what to say about them,

not one is a all time classic and those artists have a lot better in analogue ,in sound quality,

I can give a example ,i might not hear anymore Dire Straits but they caught my attention when releasing the first Lp´s and all sounded good, but i can assure you that when for the first time i play in my record player "Brothers in Arms" starting in the released as a single" so far away", i thought to myself what is this?

then as the songs were playing it seemed that each song was recorded by a diferent producer in diferent studios, like money for nothing and chicks for free with Sting ,at the time i thought" Sting with Dire Straits?"

then the song you´re latest trick or similar, not sure now if the name is right , it started with a saxophone, it sounded diferent but not my taste and then the man´s too strong i really liked the begining of the song and the song that gives name to the album "brothers in arms" was great the guitar the feeling but it´s not like others the guitar is not perfectelly recorded but the song reminded me of their early albums ,

all that strangeness in the first strangelly sounding Dire Straits album, was explained,

recorded digitally ,the first Dire Straits album to sound in totall bad, separated some do sound good but not for my taste

all others before weren´t all my taste but the first two and the the making movies were listened from beginning to end without having a doubt of the quality of this band,

i separate the first two from the third ,the only reason "where´s david knofler" and why this great third album as keyboards, or a lot of them? as the first two didn´t,

and sounded perfect for the ones who like rock music, later i discovered that david knofler was somewhere behind the lines but nothing interesting, i only talk about Dire Starits that today i can´t hear them no more,

maybe because i heard a lot the first three Lp´s, but i have all albums including two soundtracks made by Mark Knofler in the 80´s ,were ofered , i wouldn´t buy them, just remenbered Call and Local hero ,the movies,

So digital i use it a lot but analogue is without a doubt the best home format for original recordings and i do have a good equipment and including a good turntable or several and a good cd player but isn´t the only one ,i don´t know how many i have but the best was ofered to me in 96, i think , a CEC belt driven , i also spent money in a Rega cd player but not as good as some say and it looks today like if it was from the 40´s,

others look like new and bought much earlier, my first standart size cd player was a PD-7300 from pioneer not only looks good but also sounds and reads all cds, today, so i´m into cds also, not an analogue fundamentalist, but i think i know what sounds best,

sorry for wrtting so many words, but read it if you have time

 

[spl84]

The digital sound indeed exists "inherently" through a much lower signal to lower noise ratio and linearity.
Irrespective of conversation back to analogue this difference is what you hear abundantly from the prior digitisation of media giving a cleaner more accurate sound.

There are other reasons but the two prominent differences are in performance between the two methods are the bandwidth and the signal-to-noise ratio (S/N ratio)

It took me a minute to decipher what exactly you were getting at but yeah... I THINK you're referring to the specific "sound" or tone that seems to arise from the digitization of media. You're saying that it's a cleaner sound with more signal and less noise(sonic artifacts). I think if music is initially recorded digitally in a spare-no-expenses kind of way then I agree with that for sure. As long as the digital audio never gets compressed and gets enjoyed in a lossless format then digital audio can sound amazing and it does, especially with certain genres of music. The point I was making, in juvenile way, is that digital audio is not actually audible since it's a data file and requires a dac to hear it. That's all.

 

[Rui]

Unfortunately many don't get vinyl for a good reason. Ultimately the quality of the LP itself is the overriding factor. You can spend out on your LP12s and add various upgrades that do little other than increase Linns bank account then add the best tonearm and cartridge you can afford but if the quality of the vinyl you intend to play is substandard then all this money spent is pointless
I have got as far as I intend to go when it comes to vinyl replay equipment and any future spending goes on making sure I only buy quality records from the best producers of vinyl.
Admittedly great quality vinyl doesn't come cheap but it's a darn sight cheaper than paying out thousands on upgrades if you then insist on playing sub par LPs.
So perhaps, in a way, your dealer is correct and money spent on amp or elsewhere is perhaps money wel spent.

that is the truth as i since 2017 bought till today at the most 50 Lp´s, some came already with noise and very dirty ,in the past a record when bought was clean as it can be and it´s a new LP,

so why today many labels released them like that ?is it to blame a no longer existing quality control,

about vinyl recorded from digital masters ,it´s ok by me ,digital as advanced a lot since the year 2000 , the problem here is a developed format from the 70´s, in the 80´s one could listen at home the superiority of the DAT cassettes, Sony does rule everything and while they make millions selling cds no other better digital format will appear,

but if the record is recorded from digital maters and some say this laughing and don´t understand that they are laughing of their own ignorance as Lp´s recorded from a digital master, the recording sounds perfect,

but if converted to the poor sounding cd it will be a bad sound but when recorded to vinyl it´s even better than a lot of total analog recordings,

as an example when Dream syndicate band released in 1990 ,live at the Raji´s i put it to play and i couldn´t believe how good this live recording sounds, two six string guitars ,a bass guitar and drums also voice and in a song harmonica all sound perfect,

it was the first Lp live with perfect sound as there are many with high quality of sound all analog ,

only later i noticed wriiten in the back "directelly recorded into DAT "but at the time the cd had more songs that i really liked , as not all songs from this band are good in my opinion but they have several songs that is pure rock being played , perfectelly

and when having more money i bought the cd that had as i said more songs when playing the cd i couldn´t believe the bad sound it had ,

so one more time i don´t think analog is the best available, but to us is the best format and my best turntables are all from the 70´s didn´t pay nothing for them and as better i had a amplifier and speakers having a very good cd player and also a very good turntable the far becomes the diference between analog sources and digital being this last worst ,only refering to the cd ,

even if recording a cd to a cassette in a average quality deck the recording sounds always better than the cd ,
in cheap compact or component systems one doesn´t notice that .

I only bought two records that i really like again because they are in bad condition due to a lot of humidity came through a wall and all records even with a wooden sheet behind all those records have dried white mould but the sound underneath is very good ,in total 57 of them

but yet to find a machine that really cleans deep all the grooves of a record,

a friend i have cleans them with great quality but he as the best machines available of two types of cleaning and only after cleaning them in two diferent types of cleaning records machines, they stay almost perfect,

i´m saying this but if anyone disagrees well it´s his opinion i only expressed mine