Radio sound vs Hi Fi

stereoman

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Can someone please finally explain how come that when we switch a 100€ radio on almost every tune on it sounds so good, lively and upbeat ? 2x 2" generic speakers and that's it. Almost every radio sound, no matter whether new, old etc. is always a pleasurable listen. Is this really down to the extreme dynamic compression used in radios or simply wave transmission feature...why do not we get such vivid radio sound on our HiFi ?
 

newlash09

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Very good radios in his time. Sadly he's not around to answer your question.

I find both radio and FM to be distorted. Probably lacking clarity is the word. Somehow never enjoyed internet radio too much either. But maybe you have better implementation in the UK :)
 

BigH

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Does it, it must be different in Europe from UK, always thought radio sounded awful, yes some stations compress the sound even more to get noticed, think Capital Radio does that.
 

drummerman

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This reads like you are unhappy with your hifi.

Nevertheless, I often find that high resolution etc etc does not always make nice sound. - Sometimes having frequency limited top and bottom can actually add to enjoyment, letting you focus on the tune rather than the architecture and technical brilliance/soundstage etc etc (or otherwise) of it. They did an experiment on the Gadget Show a few years ago where a super expensive hifi was played to an audiency. If I remember correctly, the compressed MP3 files where preferred by the majority over non-compressed files.

Go figure.

Problem is, once you only have that you probably soon miss the resolution.

The solution ... tone controls perhaps?

Me, I value snappy rythm and tonal colour (fullness of sound) over soundstage and super extended frequency extremes. I probably could live with one speaker.

Then again, perhaps not :)
 

chebby

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Our two Ruark R1 radios sound excellent with voice and music.

We have always had good kitchen radios going back to large Roberts models years ago (R900).

Not better than sound from the hi-fi but still very enjoyable on their own terms.
 

stereoman

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drummerman said:
This reads like you are unhappy with your hifi.

No, no at all. True I'm looking for something better sounding but I'm pretty happy with the set up knowing Cyrus/Leema for years (lacking low oomph though sometimes) but actually the radio sound made me pay attention to it a long time ago. I think it is right that the frequency cut at both ends make the tunes sound good and upbeat.
 

insider9

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stereoman said:
drummerman said:
This reads like you are unhappy with your hifi.

No, no at all. True I'm looking for something better sounding but I'm pretty happy with the set up knowing Cyrus/Leema for years (lacking low oomph though sometimes) but actually the radio sound made me pay attention to it a long time ago. I think it is right that the frequency cut at both ends make the tunes sound good and upbeat.
What do you mean "frequency cut at both ends"?
 

insider9

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stereoman said:
drummerman said:
This reads like you are unhappy with your hifi.

No, no at all. True I'm looking for something better sounding but I'm pretty happy with the set up knowing Cyrus/Leema for years (lacking low oomph though sometimes) but actually the radio sound made me pay attention to it a long time ago. I think it is right that the frequency cut at both ends make the tunes sound good and upbeat.
What do you mean "frequency cut at both ends"?
 

stereoman

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insider9 said:
stereoman said:
drummerman said:
This reads like you are unhappy with your hifi.

No, no at all. True I'm looking for something better sounding but I'm pretty happy with the set up knowing Cyrus/Leema for years (lacking low oomph though sometimes) but actually the radio sound made me pay attention to it a long time ago. I think it is right that the frequency cut at both ends make the tunes sound good and upbeat.
What do you mean "frequency cut at both ends"?

I mean excatly the same but like mp3 on steroids. Throwing away ultra frequencies what Drummerman here wrote. But I think it's more to this than simply that. Special frequency boost, wave emitting etc.
 
A radio has essentially a midrange driver. And that’s it. There’s not much high treble nor any real bass. The brain is remarkably adept at creating an illusion that these are present.

The simplicity is possibly what you are hearing as clear and bouncy. And you may listen differently. I love a bedside radio and the one in our kitchen, different Pure DAB models. But it doesn’t sound like “the real thing”in the way a good hifi does.
 

stereoman

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nopiano said:
A radio has essentially a midrange driver. And that’s it. There’s not much high treble nor any real bass. The brain is remarkably adept at creating an illusion that these are present.

The simplicity is possibly what you are hearing as clear and bouncy. And you may listen differently. I love a bedside radio and the one in our kitchen, different Pure DAB models. But it doesn’t sound like “the real thing”in the way a good hifi does.

Ok , right. But can't you hear the music on it is simply so moving ? Regardless whether there is a sub inbuilt or not...Same thing with driving a car. Put your CD on and switch to radio. Radio every times wins...
 
stereoman said:
nopiano said:
A radio has essentially a midrange driver. And that’s it. There’s not much high treble nor any real bass. The brain is remarkably adept at creating an illusion that these are present.

The simplicity is possibly what you are hearing as clear and bouncy. And you may listen differently. I love a bedside radio and the one in our kitchen, different Pure DAB models. But it doesn’t sound like “the real thing”in the way a good hifi does.

Ok , right. But can't you hear the music on it is simply so moving ? Regardless whether there is a sub inbuilt or not...Same thing with driving a car. Put your CD on and switch to radio. Radio every times wins...
In the car I’ve had great enjoyment from radio and CD, and back in the day the humble cassette! Can’t say that I find radio significantly more rewarding, however. In fact, on Classic FM I can still hear the terrible compression they use. Radio 4 seems best overall. Radio 3 is broadcast at a lower average level, so is more demanding.

In current car I can switch between FM and DAB, but in normal use it does this itself.
 
The ma-in-law has a Pure Digital DAB radio in her kitchen and to my ears it sounds very bass light despite it having good clarity. By contrast, I've always found a proper hi-fi FM tuner sounds really good played through the amp. I wouldn't say it's better than other sources but pound-for-pound it makes a good fist of it. Exactly the same with Freeview connected to the amp.
 

Vladimir

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Regarding these amps that don't have bass oomph and create the perception of speed and cleaner mids.

Are these amps you refer to (Cyrus/Leema) with electronic (chip) volume control and EQ instead of classical analogue potentiometer and discrete preamp board? If so, they have unlikely implemented loudness compensation at quiet levels, or perhaps they've chosen not to use it excessively.

As you know, human hearing is insensitive to bass frequencies compared to midrange, so it's common practice to implement loudness compensation in amps. If the amp doesn't have a loudness switch, it could be implemented to taper off from 100% at 6 o'clock position, to 0% loudness compensation at 9 o'clock.

400px-Lindos1.svg.png


Many amps are bass heavy untill you turn beyond 9 o'clock, anticipating quiet music up to that turn position, yet the amp is already screaming loud because the input sensitivity for the sources is too high (sub 200mV). In effect you get unnecessary bass bump of as high as 10dB at normal listening levels. So only way to fix this design flaw (or shall I call it a marketing feature), you need to adjust the input sensitivity trimmers, if available, or use something like Rothwell attenuators.

I've seen most if not all Stereophile measurements of Cyrus amps. They measure pretty flat, no lack of bass or highs. And the power supply is always chunky on Cyrus kit. So I have this theory it's about how loudness compensation is implemented creating this perception you speak of.
 

Vladimir

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There are some audiophiles that like and even prefer the sound of mini systems over full blown hifi setups. Of course not all mini systems, they a quite picky which ones are the diamonds among the piles quartz.

Logic behind it is that there's something enjoyable and relaxing about listening to a good mini hifi system. Using big boy kit makes one edgy, always auditioning critically, not relaxing and connecting with the music. The mini system turns off or turns down the audiophile mode in our head.

Is this relatable to stereoman's 'radio vs hifi' experience?
 

nick8858

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I think your last post is very helpful. I quite upgrading etc some time ago having altered my mindset to just enjoying what I have. It works, it wasn't too costly, it looks nice, and sounds fine. Why change it I say? And Mrs Nick8858 likes it too which of course is most important. No urge to change at all.
 

stereoman

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Vladimir said:
There are some audiophiles that like and even prefer the sound of mini systems over full blown hifi setups. Of course not all mini systems, they a quite picky which ones are the diamonds among the piles quartz.

Logic behind it is that there's something enjoyable and relaxing about listening to a good mini hifi system. Using big boy kit makes one edgy, always auditioning critically, not relaxing and connecting with the music. The mini system turns off or turns down the audiophile mode in our head.

Is this relatable to stereoman's 'radio vs hifi' experience?

Close Vlad....but not really. There is sth different to it. I also had before many small HiFi systems. Denons , Sony etc. none could be compared to the vividness of the radio sound. Radio always won. I remember this clearly. When I was about 19 y.o. I was using a really good Sony mini HiFi (can't remember which model it was, but nontheless pretty expensive for that time). One day after recording some music in studio with my band we got our demo CD straight off. I remember listening to it at home. On the next day our demo was played on an alternative radio station - the same CD sounded 100 better through radio...it had upbeat, life, resolution, dynamics. I'm 100% sure that good sound is not about big hifi etc. there is something elusive to it. Radio sound is the best example what our systems at home do not give us. But whether it is down to wave transmission or compression - I need to find out yet. I really think the "lively" radio sound is due to wave transmissions making the music more noise free than our wired ones.
 

MajorFubar

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Sounds like you're missing the in-your-face levelled-off sound that comes out the back of a broadcast compressor. It's the antethesis of what most of us call hifi, but it doesn't make you a bad man for wanting that kind of sound. Years ago you could approximate the effect by taping your CDs and records on one of the cheaper audio systems which always seemed to have a rather impetuous/trigger-happy ALC circuit in the cassette recorder.
 

stereoman

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MajorFubar said:
Sounds like you're missing the in-your-face levelled-off sound that comes out the back of a broadcast compressor. It's the antethesis of what most of us call hifi, but it doesn't make you a bad man for wanting that kind of sound. Years ago you could approximate the effect by taping your CDs and records on one of the cheaper audio systems which always seemed to have a rather impetuous/trigger-happy ALC circuit in the cassette recorder.

Hi Major, that sounds interesting. Can you please elaborate on it...?

And by the way - do you mean I need this lovely thing into my HiFi chain in this case ?

http://www.thomann.de/de/art_pro_vla_stereo_tube_kompressor.htm
 

MajorFubar

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Yep that's a compressor. There are various types. Broadcast compression is a kind of extreme amplitude-leveling, designed originally so factory workers could listen to their AM radio and have all the songs heard over the noise of the machinery without having to keep adjusting the volume. It also compensated for AM radio's unavoidable poor DR. In the UK it's used most voraciously on mainstream chart-pop stations such as BBC Radio 1 and local radio, variably on Radio 2 depending on the time of day (evening and late night shows are less compressed than daytime and 'drivetime' shows), and only subtly on Radio 3 (classical) and Radio 4 (spoken word).
 

stereoman

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MajorFubar said:
Yep that's a compressor. There are various types. Broadcast compression is a kind of extreme amplitude-leveling, designed originally so factory workers could listen to their AM radio and have all the songs heard over the noise of the machinery without having to keep adjusting the volume. It also compensated for AM radio's unavoidable poor DR. In the UK it's used most voraciously on mainstream chart-pop stations such as BBC Radio 1 and local radio, variably on Radio 2 depending on the time of day (evening and late night shows are less compressed than daytime and 'drivetime' shows), and only subtly on Radio 3 (classical) and Radio 4 (spoken word).

Thanks. So in other words if I buy a cheaper (link below) like this one...it should give me this precious compressed radio sound ? ;) It's called simply stereo compressor , not broadcast compressor. Sorry, I'm a totally newbie into this.

https://www.thomann.de/de/fmr_audio_rnc_1773.htm
 

MajorFubar

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I'm reticent to advise adding a sound processor in the path of your hifi components because I can't be 100% sure that's what you want, it's just my perception of what I think you're meaning when you talk about the difference in sound between radio and your hifi. If I get chance this evening when I get home from work I'll upload two snippets of audio for you, one without additional compression and one with quite voracious broadcast compression. Feel free to nominate the song you would like me to use.
 

MajorFubar

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I Just realised you used to record your own music with a band in a studio; you must surely have already been exposed to the kind of effects strong compression has on audio from your experience in the studio.
 

Native_bon

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I totally understand where you coming from stereoman. I too noticed this long time ago when I was really into music production. My music played on Jazz FM used to sound much better than playing it at home.

More resolution, rhythm, up front feel good fun presentation. This was the same result with Jazz songs played on Jazz FM as suppose to playing them on even very good hi-fi systems.

Am glade someone else has notice this as well as least am not going mad.
 

stereoman

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Native_bon said:
I totally understand where you coming from stereoman. I too noticed this long time ago when I was really into music production. My music played on Jazz FM used to sound much better than playing it at home.

More resolution, rhythm, up front feel good fun presentation. This was the same result with Jazz songs played on Jazz FM as suppose to playing them on even very good hi-fi systems.

Am glade someone else has notice this as well as least am not going mad.

Nice you share this experience too. That has been on my mind for years. That is why I'm into buying this thing now (compressor) and will try to post my experience with it here...whether it works or not.
 

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