Rip off hi fi true or false ?

[lindsayt]

It's all a scandal: I mean, there are some companies selling direct, so cutting out the distributor and retailer profit margins, yet still selling for the same price as their (few) retailers charge, plus adding on delivery. How can they get away with it?

Mind you, given the vintage of the original interview, how do we all think that nice Mr Brown is doing as Prime Minister?

They get away with it by using the marketing line: "Our dealers are on very low mark up with our products." Without ever stating what the actual mark ups are (as that's commercially sensitive confidential information).

Rip off is one thing - where the price paid by the customer is way in excess of the materials and manufacturing and transportation and taxation costs.

Rip off combined with hypocrisy is another.

 

[andyjm]

The surprise is not that low volume / bespoke electronics is expensive, it is just how cheap high volume electronics can be.

If I bought components from Radio Spares or similar, charged my time at a reasonable rate, added on (as suggested earlier in the thread) a suitable mark up to cover my costs (rates, rent, lighting, insurance etc), then added on a dealer markup - I could easily see how a simple linear power supply with just a few components in a metal box could cost many £100s.

The magic is that a Raspberry Pi, with HDMI graphics, ethernet and over a billion transistors costs £29. That is surprising.

I would also point out that it is not as if the niche HiFi industry is in great health. Naim have had to sell themselves (twice?), and many of the old established firms are now just brands of larger manufacturers. I don't see any sign that the industry is making outrageous profits at the expense of the consumer.

The truth is that if you want low volume, niche products then you are going to have to pay more, and receive far less.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'd wait for them to go down a wee bit more....

More exhaustive research needed, then.

 

[drummerman]

No. Clear example of a witch hunt against a small manufacturer

It's all smoke and mirrors.

I heard Richer Sounds are buying the remaining stock.

worth to take in shares?

It might be gas to have a punt.

I'd wait for them to go down a wee bit more....

I heard Richer Sounds are buying the remaining stock.

 

[chebby]

Names that would come up first in the UK as pioneers of 'designer' electronics are Ivor Tiefenbrun and Julian Vereker. However, the king of them all worldwide is definitely Mark Levinson.

I looked at a bunch of those interviews and marvelled at how similar they all looked. Then I realised i was only getting as far as the presenter!

I had the volume turned down because I never actually listen to this sort of #### especially after the ranting Australian that someone posted here once. (Screaming about cables or something. That traumatised me.)

 

[davedotco]

They would just replace generic passive electronic parts for branded exotica (special caps etc.), thicker front aluminium plates... Done. Officially tweaked.

I always wondered who are these anonimous talented engineers who built these designer electronics. This is why I respect guys like John Curl, Nelson Pass, Tom Evans etc. Designer = maker = brand = legend.

BTW. The Daniel Hertz speakers are built by an old Czech piano company Petroff. If it was made by some random speaker company, the secret would leak and devalue the brand. But Mark learned his leson with Korsun and chose a piano company and this is advertized as a big premium of his product. A touch of class. It's a musical instrument, not an electrical appliance, get it? And the piano company wont sell a cheaper OEM variant. The guy is a genious I tell you.

Interestingly hi-fi buyers love a 'personality' led brand, the marketing guys know this and push it relentlessly, particularly in 'hi-end' where the name can mean everything.

One of Red Rose's marketing masterpieces was to demonstrate their product with live recordings, made in their Manhatten showroom, naturally featuring Mark on horns. To be fair though, the system using Bo Bengtsson's fabulous ribbon speakers and the big mono valve amplifiers remains one of the best setups I have ever heard, making Mark's 'spiel' very easy...*give_rose*

Even I am not immune, my current favourite speaker, the Unity Audio 'The Rock' (studio monitor) boasts amplification by Tim de' Paravicini...!

On the other side of the coin, when I did some work with a serious US CD player manufacturer, their technology lead products suffered immensly from the lack of a prominent figurehead. So much so that they virtually invented one, using the name of someone whose involvement in the formation of the company was minimal, despite giving the brand it's name.

On a slightly different point, John Curl was, for a while, my boss at JBL/Harman. He also had did one job that I would have given my right arm for, consultant audio engineer to the Grateful Dead...*dirol*

 

[jjbomber]

]Please do point us in the direction of any speaker manufacturers offering a profit margin anywhere near that, as we'd love to set up an account with them!

Focal are probably not that far off. Cyrus have a pretty decent mark up. The problem is that different retaillers have different buying prices, depending on volume. So frank Harvey may not be getting the best prices but other retaillers do.

 

[Frank Harvey]

]Please do point us in the direction of any speaker manufacturers offering a profit margin anywhere near that, as we'd love to set up an account with them!

Focal are probably not that far off. Cyrus have a pretty decent mark up. The problem is that different retaillers have different buying prices, depending on volume. So frank Harvey may not be getting the best prices but other retaillers do.

We sell more than most retailers, so our buying prices will be favourable, but they're still far from that excessive example!

 

[iQ Speakers]

Looks like I need to get a personality!

Its not the dealers that are greedy they can not be, but they also have huge overheads, premisis, decent staff nobody wants to talk to a moran in a high end HiFi dealer, rates, advertising, demo stock, and it goes on.

Manufactures on the other hand can be, by building a brand though thats expensive, and then the people will follow almost regardless of price.

 

[chebby]

Looks like I need to get a personality!

Ok but in the meantime it wouldn't hurt to get some small, shiny labels or badges made up with 'Boggit' on them to stick on the back of your speakers and the Abrahamsen amps.

After a while you could stick them on the front or do a limited edition with gold labels and charge more for them. Never tell anyone there is no difference (except for a badge). Nature abhors a vacuum and your silence will soon become 'mysterious' or 'enigmatic' and the internet and the hi-fi press will speculate endlessly about why the 'Boggit' and 'Boggit Gold' versions sound better.

 

[SteveR750]

Looks like I need to get a personality!

Ok but in the meantime it wouldn't hurt to get some small, shiny labels or badges made up with 'Boggit' on them to stick on the back of your speakers and the Abrahamsen amps.

After a while you could stick them on the front or do a limited edition with gold labels and charge more for them. Never tell anyone there is no difference (except for a badge). Nature abhors a vacuum and your silence will soon become 'mysterious' or 'enigmatic' and the internet and the hi-fi press will speculate endlessly about why the 'Boggit' and 'Boggit Gold' versions sound better.

And that ironically is the Abrahamsens problem: it's too cheap. Few will really believe it's as good as a kandy, let alone it's Norwegian twin. Even overtly bragging about price doesn't harm a leisure brand, "reassuringly expensive" made it the drink of chaos.

 

[Vladimir]

Looks like I need to get a personality!

Ok but in the meantime it wouldn't hurt to get some small, shiny labels or badges made up with 'Boggit' on them to stick on the back of your speakers and the Abrahamsen amps.

After a while you could stick them on the front or do a limited edition with gold labels and charge more for them. Never tell anyone there is no difference (except for a badge). Nature abhors a vacuum and your silence will soon become 'mysterious' or 'enigmatic' and the internet and the hi-fi press will speculate endlessly about why the 'Boggit' and 'Boggit Gold' versions sound better.

First he needs to wed a celeb blonde of the Kim Cattrall caliber.

 

[Vladimir]

On a slightly different point, John Curl was, for a while, my boss at JBL/Harman. He also had did one job that I would have given my right arm for, consultant audio engineer to the Grateful Dead...*dirol*

Interesting how Harman as the greatest audio company in history (so far) despite its mega octopus size, has still maintained the tradition of designer names attached to their products. Matti Otala in the amp world, Greg Timbers or Bart Locanthi for loudspeakers. And so has Sony for that matter with Takashi Kanai, Marantz with Ken Ishiwata or Pioneer by renting Andrew Jones. James Sugden, Alan Shaw, James Lansing, John Bowers, Bob Stewart, John Farlowe, Per Abrahamsen... and the list goes on. A name truly sells and at a premium.

However, at least these people know how to use a multimeter and not die poking the mains. Not so sure about Mark Levinson. I think he pays people to change lightbulbs in his flat. But like you said, he is a high-end audio visionary, a guru. Whether Chinese or Martian OEM stuff, he obviously can make a show and impress. He has never peddled $40 electronics as high end and I'm sure he despises such affairs. He always brought to the market fork lift heavy over-engineered audio kit with ++++ dose of wow effect. If the prices were reasonable that would just take away from the experience of exclusivity and super sensory drama.

And it works. It bloody works. You know best from your own professional experience in the industry.

 

[iQ Speakers]

Not sure whether the Boggit brand would catch on! perhaps you could lnock up a Boggit logo Vlad! I could certainly do with a cute blonde, and if shhe could sand things that would be a bonus! So Chebby you didn't go for the Harbeth P3 in Rosewood then? looking forward to your thoughts on those new speakers of yours. Abrahamsen want me to stay as close as possible to there web prices.

 

[chebby]

Looks like I need to get a personality!

Ok but in the meantime it wouldn't hurt to get some small, shiny labels or badges made up with 'Boggit' on them to stick on the back of your speakers and the Abrahamsen amps.

After a while you could stick them on the front or do a limited edition with gold labels and charge more for them. Never tell anyone there is no difference (except for a badge). Nature abhors a vacuum and your silence will soon become 'mysterious' or 'enigmatic' and the internet and the hi-fi press will speculate endlessly about why the 'Boggit' and 'Boggit Gold' versions sound better.

First he needs to wed a celeb blonde of the Kim Cattrall caliber.

Different Mark Levinson apparently (the film director one).

 

[chebby]

Not sure whether the Boggit brand would catch on! perhaps you could lnock up a Boggit logo Vlad! I could certainly do with a cute blonde, and if shhe could sand things that would be a bonus! So Chebby you didn't go for the Harbeth P3 in Rosewood then?

No. They cost twice as much as the AX2s and more than my whole system right now. If we are talking that sort of cash then I would rather try the Audio-Note AN-Ks.

I am thoroughly enjoying the new ANs thanks. Since buying them I have listened to far more music than in recent years and - equally - enjoying my new Quad Vena too. Waiting for some Atacama SL600i stands to arrive.

 

[spiny norman]

Different Mark Levinson apparently

Nope, same one: audio manufacturer, jazz person and co-author of fairly icky sex manual (with Ms Cattrall).

 

[chebby]

Different Mark Levinson apparently

Nope, same one: audio manufacturer, jazz person and co-author of fairly icky sex manual (with Ms Cattrall).

Now I shall think of that every time some American enthuses about liking their tubes to be warm and full.

 

[Vladimir]

Not sure whether the Boggit brand would catch on! perhaps you could lnock up a Boggit logo Vlad!

Which one then?

 

[Electro]

And that ironically is the Abrahamsens problem: it's too cheap. Few will really believe it's as good as a kandy, let alone it's Norwegian twin. Even overtly bragging about price doesn't harm a leisure brand, "reassuringly expensive" made it the drink of chaos.

I agree, if Abrahamsen equipment was double the price it would probably be taken far more seriously.

Electrocompaniet increased their prices quite substantially some years ago and sales took off like a rocket , but even at the inflated prices Electrocompaniet is far better value sound per pound than most other brands imo , although now they have serious competition from Hegel ! *smile*

 

[iQ Speakers]

Definatly the middle one! Sorry I wont be available for 2-3 hours as I'll be putting all the prices up.

 

[Electro]

Definatly the middle one! Sorry I wont be available for 2-3 hours as I'll be putting all the prices up.

*good* *smile*

 

[matthewpiano]

One of the biggest problems for customers in the hi-fi industry is the perception that there is a direct correlation between price and sound quality. I've listened to enough different kit at all sorts of prices to know that there isn't.

 

[Vladimir]

 

[davedotco]

One of the biggest problems for customers in the hi-fi industry is the perception that there is a direct correlation between price and sound quality. I've listened to enough different kit at all sorts of prices to know that there isn't.

If we are talking about systems, I wholeheartedly agree but in general, with components I think you do tend to get what you pay for, though sometimes you are paying for things other than simply sound quality.

Of course there are a few expensive 'dogs' and some product is better value than others, but I find that 'better', more expensive equipment does generally sound better.

This view comes with a huge proviso though, decent budget components can and will, when selected into a system that is well matched, complementary to the room in which it is being used and to the requirements of the user, sound far better than a jumble of expensive components that are none of those things.

I have to bite my tongue on occasions, system building appears to be something of a dying art and components and combinations that I know to produce poor results are often recommended together, their unsuitability is easily proved by demonstration, though sadly I am no longer in a position to do so.